All Photons Move at 300,000km/s.... But Don't?

[RajeshTrivedi]

While all frames of references are as valid as each other, it is very hard to place one's self in a photon's frame of reference.
And just as true is the fact that our own sub-luminal frame of reference is the one we observe and need to deal with.
In that respect, and as I said before, photons certainly do travel/move.
That's the world we live in.

Indeed, a photon has no rest frame. It travels at a speed c, which is a singularity for the Lorentz equations which allow us to relate the frame of one ponderable bit of matter with another.

...

This represents a singularity in the transform to-and-from any purported frame of the photon.
As for the eigenvectors, one goes to zero while another goes to infinity, making the situation worse than a typical singular matrix.

....

That's exactly what I said!

Is it so, Paddoboy ?

saying something is hard and saying that there is no such thing...both are different statements. The later statement as made by Rpenner is thoughtful academic statement with sound maths to support, but what you stated in the original was nothing but ignorant rant.

 

[origin]

Is it so, Paddoboy ?

saying something is hard and saying that there is no such thing...both are different statements. The later statement as made by Rpenner is thoughtful academic statement with sound maths to support, but what you stated in the original was nothing but ignorant rant.

Please stop trying to start a flame war in this thread.

 

[RajeshTrivedi]

I don't believe it is logical to say photons are not moving...How otherwise is the photo electric effect produced.
From our frame of reference they are certainly moving, but if one could put himself in the Photon's frame of reference, things would look different.
Due to infinite length contraction, light could traverse the whole Universe in no time at all.

1. What has Photo Electric Effect got to do with movement of photon ?? Just to write something on a science forum ??

You would like to correct one more bloomer in above post ? Did you get that ?

 

[exchemist]

1. What has Photo Electric Effect got to do with movement of photon ?? Just to write something on a science forum ??

You would like to correct one more bloomer in above post ? Did you get that ?

Well if photons did not move, how would energy be transmitted in a beam of light?

 

[RajeshTrivedi]

Please stop trying to start a flame war in this thread.

He is posting non sense in this thread and they are..

1. Implying Rest Frame for photon...

2. Linking Photo Electric Effect with the motion of photon.

It would have been proper on your part to correct him at the first instance..

 

[origin]

He is posting non sense in this thread and they are..

1. Implying Rest Frame for photon...

2. Linking Photo Electric Effect with the motion of photon.

It would have been proper on your part to correct him at the first instance..

I didn't read his post, he only point I was making is that it would be nice if this thread did not become like some of the other threads where you and paddoboy just hurl insults back and forth for pages.

 

[RajeshTrivedi]

In our frame of reference the speed of photons/light is constant and only ever move at "c"

You are sure ?

 

[exchemist]

You are sure ?

He should, strictly speaking, have said in vacuo.

 

[brucep]

He is posting non sense in this thread and they are..

1. Implying Rest Frame for photon...

2. Linking Photo Electric Effect with the motion of photon.

It would have been proper on your part to correct him at the first instance..

You're a liar Rajesh. You're posting nonsense based on your overall ignorance of the science. Nobody but you would misinterpret comments about the proper frame of a photon [light]. It would be proper of you to learn something or shut up.

 

[brucep]

He should, strictly speaking, have said in vacuo.

When we discuss the natural geodesic path of light, over the spacetime manifold, it's not required to stipulate that most everywhere on the local manifold exists a vacuum. If we need to understand the path through a medium we use a different theoretical model. The metric solutions we derive the equations of motion from are vacuum solutions. We start with a vacuum and then introduce matter to evaluate it's natural path.

 

[paddoboy]

You're a liar Rajesh. You're posting nonsense based on your overall ignorance of the science. Nobody but you would misinterpret comments about the proper frame of a photon [light]. It would be proper of you to learn something or shut up.

Don't worry too much about my friend Rajesh. He is still seething somewhat due to me being part of exposing him as a liar and a fraud.
Just a typical reaction from another nutty crank.

 

[paddoboy]

He is posting non sense in this thread and they are..

1. Implying Rest Frame for photon...

No that is totally false and just as ridiculous to infer.
Or are you muddled up with the scenario/thought experiment, re in the photon's frame of reference? Then you should go back and read my post in its entirety and without any personal baggage.
As I said it is rather difficult to put one's self in the frame of reference of the photon.
The following answer to a similar question I find pretty correct and informative......
I think you are asking about how a photon experiences the passage of time? There is no right time. Photons are not ordinary things moving through space. So from the point of view of the photon this time is not moving at all but the point of view of the photon is that it's place in space is changing but no time is passing. Change - ie. motion - in time and space actually happens in four dimensions in which no point in time or place in space can be preferred. We could create any ( or many) agreeable coordinate system in such space with four indices - they can be anything at all but with them change of any of the four indices for position and time can be described by the difference in these arbitrary agreed numbers. But this "Minkowski space" and the equations that relate motions in space and time allows the one special thing. That one "thing" is that light moves at same speed always, fastest possible. So light photons were they able to experience, could only experience change of space. They cannot experience time having changed position in space in the least possible time. I have avoided any math based on your question. If you sought a more rigorous treatment sorry, this works for me.
http://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/68600/frame-of-reference-of-the-photon

2. Linking Photo Electric Effect with the motion of photon.

The photoelectric effect showed that light was much more complicated than the simple wave analogy that was thought of at that time.
Light as a particle [photon] helped explain this, and of course the photon needs to be moving and have the required amount of energy.
If light didn't move of course, would we have the photoelectric effect?
http://www.lightandmatter.com/html_books/lm/ch34/ch34.html#Section34.1

It would have been proper on your part to correct him at the first instance..

Perhaps the more intelligent members of this forum, did not see the necessity of irrelevant pedant as you do.

 

[BrianHarwarespecialist]

Yes, the paradox of entanglement is the apparently instantaneous "communication" between "particles" that are apparently physically separated. Any such communication cannot therefore be mediated by photons.

I have not studied entanglement much, but suspect it may be an error to think of the entities as physically separated particles. In the mental picture I have of QM - which is derived from quantum chemistry, admittedly - what we classically think of as "particles" are modelled as waves that explore space, with the strange feature that all their interactions with other matter take place in quantised units, the magnitude of which correspond to what we call whole particles.

 

[BrianHarwarespecialist]

"but suspect it may be an error to think of the entities as physically separated particles."

Yes this is a more objective view of the picture since the the behaviour of light demonstrates wave particle duality qualities.

 

[paddoboy]

You are sure ?

Sure I'm sure! Photons/light are born at "c" always travel at "c" and never change in any local frame of reference.
Effects such as absorption, re-admission, reflection and refraction all though have perceived effects when passing through or interacting with any medium other than a pure vacuum.

 

[Daecon]

Brucep and Paddoboy, you're good at explaining stuff.

Does the speed relative to the observer and mass relative to speed equations not apply if the observer has no rest mass?

 

[paddoboy]

Brucep and Paddoboy, you're good at explaining stuff.

Does the speed relative to the observer and mass relative to speed equations not apply if the observer has no rest mass?

You mean if the observer is not at rest?
brucep or exochemist or origin maybe better at answering that.
Maybe you can restate the question?
From what I understand, due to the non absolute nature of space and time, every observer will see differently.
Back later and see if you get any other replies....Oh and thanks for the compliment, being a lay person, I do try and keep answers as simple as possible.

 

[Daecon]

Relative to a photon, would everything else in the Universe appear to be traveling at light speed? This doesn't seem to make sense because would that not imply that physical matter would also be traveling at light speed, relative to a photon's frame of reference? That seems silly, so obviously I'm not understanding something somewhere, hence my question.

 

[arfa brane]

Particles with mass, or that interact with the Higg's field, propagate at less than c. Without the Higg's mechanism all particles have the same velocity (our universe doesn't look like this).

Note that you are in a sense, "travelling" at the speed of light, depending on how exactly you define that somewhat vague notion.

 

[origin]

Particles with mass, or that interact with the Higg's field, propagate at less than c. Without the Higg's mechanism all particles have the same velocity (our universe doesn't look like this).

That is unique way of putting it that is rather eye opening!