All Photons Move at 300,000km/s.... But Don't?

Reply to the above

This is true but using even linear logic it can be mathematically deduced and described that at the speed of c the photon experiences no time or distance so the indiginous behaviours of the photon is indeed mathematically consistent with the definition of omnipresent even if this cannot be observed in a material reality.


While all frames of references are as valid as each other, it is very hard to place one's self in a photon's frame of reference.
And just as true is the fact that our own sub-luminal frame of reference is the one we observe and need to deal with.
In that respect, and as I said before, photons certainly do travel/move.
That's the world we live in.
 
Imagine you existed in an ocean and you were the size of a subatomic particle let's say a quark and your awareness was only capable of viewing one water molecule. But you bieng a scientist or logician just because of the limitations based on your sensory inputs you still would be able to logically deduce that an ocean must exist even if your material sensory inputs does not provide you with that information. Your senses will always provide you with limited information but your logic can still tell you that with many molecules like the singular one you are capable of observing logically there can be more, and if there was more what would that system behave like what would it look like now you are using your imagination. But just because you imagined it does not mean it cannot and does not have an equivalent in the totality of an existence your senses at the moment cannot conceive, and in this example I used here that equivalent will be an ocean. As for the other example we were talking about this structure could be a premature model of how we can build a warp drive.

Ballocks.
 
Of course photons move, you have to comprehend the context in which I was speaking about, I said I assumed they stopped moving at the speed of c in the photons own reference frame

But you did not say that. You simply said photons stop moving which in our sub luminal frame of reference is wrong.
In our frame of reference the speed of photons/light is constant and only ever move at "c"
We have had to deal with another character who was continually inferring that the speed of light was not constant. [FARSIGHT]
 
My assumptions does not violate any of the already accepted physics all the things you mentioned here is correct and they still hold firmly, it is only when the light speed barrier is violated such as in cases involving entanglement when you have to consider a different way to infer what is happening with the behaviors of matter or photons. At zero length the photons run out of "space" to travel and now become indigenous to "space-time" but space time does not add space instead it uses it up creating all sorts of effects like negative energy dark matter and such so this is why the visible universe appears to have less material in it that is supposed to be predicted by physics " gravity" is actually more special than people may think.
Look up the meaning of scholarship. It doesn't have anything to do with what you've been proposing. The things that seem fashionable in your mind are bullshit after you expose yourself to some scholarship on the subject.
 
While all frames of references are as valid as each other, it is very hard to place one's self in a photon's frame of reference.
Indeed, a photon has no rest frame. It travels at a speed c, which is a singularity for the Lorentz equations which allow us to relate the frame of one ponderable bit of matter with another.

A 3+1 Lorentz transform can be parameterized either by a dimensionless ratio with the speed of light, $$\beta = \frac{v}{c}$$, or by a dimensionless rapidity parameter, $$\rho = \tanh^{-1} \beta$$.
$${\Huge \Lambda}(\rho, \hat{x}) = \begin{pmatrix} c^{-1} & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
\begin{pmatrix} - \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & 0 & 0 \\ \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
\begin{pmatrix} e^{-\rho} & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & e^{\rho} & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
\begin{pmatrix} - \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & 0 & 0 \\ \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
\begin{pmatrix} c & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
\\ \quad \quad \quad = \begin{pmatrix} \cosh \rho & c^{-1} \sinh \rho & 0 & 0 \\ c \sinh \rho & \cosh \rho & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} \frac{1}{\sqrt{1 - \beta^2}} & \frac{\beta}{c \sqrt{1 - \beta^2}} & 0 & 0 \\ \frac{c \beta}{\sqrt{1 - \beta^2}} &\frac{1}{\sqrt{1 - \beta^2}} & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix} = {\Huge \Lambda}(\beta, \hat{x})$$
$$e^{\rho} = \frac{\sqrt{1 + \beta}}{\sqrt{1 - \beta}}$$
For $$|\beta| < 1$$ we have $$\Lambda(-\beta) \Lambda(\beta) = 1$$, $$\det \Lambda = 1$$ and $$\left( \Lambda u\right)^T \eta \Lambda v = u^T \eta v$$ for any two space-time vectors, u and v, which are all physically important.*
But $$\lim_{|\beta| \to 1} \cosh \rho = \lim_{|\beta| \to 1} \frac{1}{\sqrt{1 - \beta^2}} = \infty$$. This represents a singularity in the transform to-and-from any purported frame of the photon.
As for the eigenvectors, one goes to zero while another goes to infinity, making the situation worse than a typical singular matrix.




* $$\eta \propto \begin{pmatrix} -c^2 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}$$, this is the metric of flat space-time in Cartesian coordinates.

//edited to fix math display
 
Last edited:
Indeed, a photon has no rest frame. It travels at a speed c, which is a singularity for the Lorentz equations which allow us to relate the frame of one ponderable bit of matter with another.

A 3+1 Lorentz transform can be parameterized either by a dimensionless ratio with the speed of light, $$\beta = \frac{v}{c}$$, or by a dimensionless rapidity parameter, $$\rho = \tanh^{-1} \beta$$.
$${\Huge \Lambda}(\rho, \hat{x}) = \begin{pmatrix} c^{-1} & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
\begin{pmatrix} - \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & 0 & 0 \\ \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
\begin{pmatrix} e^{-\rho} & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & e^{\rho} & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
\begin{pmatrix} - \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & 0 & 0 \\ \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & \frac{1}{\sqrt{2}} & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
\begin{pmatrix} c & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}
\\ \quad \quad \quad = \begin{pmatrix} \cosh \rho & c^{-1} \sinh \rho & 0 & 0 \\ c \sinh \rho & \cosh \rho & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix} = \begin{pmatrix} \frac{1}{\sqrt{1 - \beta^2}} & \frac{\beta}{c \sqrt{1 - \beta^2}} & 0 & 0 \\ \frac{c \beta}{\sqrt{1 - \beta^2}} &\frac{1}{\sqrt{1 - \beta^2}} & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix} = {\Huge \Lambda}(\beta, \hat{x})$$
$$e^{\rho} = \frac{\sqrt{1 + \beta}}{\sqrt{1 - \beta}}$$
For $$|\beta| < 1$$ we have $$\Lambda(-\beta) \Lambda(\beta) = 1$$, $$\det \Lambda = 1$$ and $$\left( \Lambda u\right)^T \eta \Lambda v = u^T \eta v$$ for any two space-time vectors, u and v, which are all physically important.*
But $$\lim_{|\beta| \to 1} \cosh \rho = \lim_{|\beta| \to 1} \frac{1}{\sqrt{1 - \beta^2}} = \infty$$. This represents a singularity in the transform to-and-from any purported frame of the photon.
As for the eigenvectors, one goes to zero while another goes to infinity, making the situation worse than a typical singular matrix.




* $$\eta \propto \begin{pmatrix} -c^2 & 0 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 1 & 0 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\ 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \end{pmatrix}$$, this is the metric of flat space-time in Cartesian coordinates.

//edited to fix math display


That's exactly what I said! :)
 
While all frames of references are as valid as each other, it is very hard to place one's self in a photon's frame of reference.
And just as true is the fact that our own sub-luminal frame of reference is the one we observe and need to deal with.
In that respect, and as I said before, photons certainly do travel/move.
That's the world we live in.
Yes they do travel I was unlclear.
 
But you did not say that. You simply said photons stop moving which in our sub luminal frame of reference is wrong.
In our frame of reference the speed of photons/light is constant and only ever move at "c"
We have had to deal with another character who was continually inferring that the speed of light was not constant. [FARSIGHT]
It's hard to describe what a photon is doing in an entangled state once they are entangled they display behaviours that seem to suggest some sort of mechanism tranferring information FTL but the photons themselves don't necessarily have to be moving to produce this affect, in a regular sense yes photons are always moving in space but once the speed of c is transcended you can no longer say that they are moving at least not in space perhaps space time. Hope I was a bit more clear this time if not I will keep trying to explain with clarity.
 
Apologies if this has already been covered and I didn't notice, but if a photon was considered to be the "observer" would there be any implication that physical matter is moving at light speed? Because that seems nonsensical.

Does the relative speed mechanic just not appply if the observer has no "rest" mass?
 
Apologies if this has already been covered and I didn't notice, but if a photon was considered to be the "observer" would there be any implication that physical matter is moving at light speed? Because that seems nonsensical.

Does the relative speed mechanic just not appply if the observer has no "rest" mass?
Nothing with mass can move at the speed of light yes that is nonsensical.
 
And just to be clear Paddo am not suggesting that the speed of light is not a constant and I do not agree with Farsight, "The speed of light is a constant but it's speed can be influenced depending on the medium it travels through making it appear to change"
 
I would also like to apologize for an incorrect statement I made earlier stating photons stop moving at the speed of c I skiped a step in my explainations. A better way to put it is while photons are in an entangled state there seems to be a medium transferring information FTL but the photons themselves don't seem to be moving FTL. As long as the photons don't exceed the speed of light they can and will be moving in space but it is unclear if it is the photons themselves that transcend the light speed barrier or the space time medium moving the photons at a speed faster than light.

I started my though process at the speed of light, so I naturally proceeded to FTL in the case of entanglement this is were I saw a connection. So since I was only focusing on light speed and beyond my explainations only contained non moving particles. But once I reverse my though process to light speed and less than light speed traveling in space then things start to move again and everything goes back to normal. I will from now on try and explain things step by step.
 
Last edited:
This is an excellent discussion hopefully it will lead to infinite regression and I somehow think that will form a connection to space time. Keep the comments coming both negative or positive am still in the brainstorming phase.
 
I would also like to apologize for an incorrect statement I made earlier stating photons stop moving at the speed of c I skiped a step in my explainations. A better way to put it is while photons are in an entangled state there seems to be a medium transferring information FTL but the photons themselves don't seem to be moving FTL. As long as the photons don't exceed the speed of light they can and will be moving in space but it is unclear if it is the photons themselves that transcend the light speed barrier or the space time medium moving the photons at a speed faster than light.

I started my though process at the speed of light, so I naturally proceeded to FTL in the case of entanglement this is were I saw a connection. So since I was only focusing on light speed and beyond my explainations only contained non moving particles. But once I reverse my though process to light speed and less than light speed traveling in space then things start to move again and everything goes back to normal. I will from now on try and explain things step by step.

Yes, the paradox of entanglement is the apparently instantaneous "communication" between "particles" that are apparently physically separated. Any such communication cannot therefore be mediated by photons.

I have not studied entanglement much, but suspect it may be an error to think of the entities as physically separated particles. In the mental picture I have of QM - which is derived from quantum chemistry, admittedly - what we classically think of as "particles" are modelled as waves that explore space, with the strange feature that all their interactions with other matter take place in quantised units, the magnitude of which correspond to what we call whole particles.
 
Back
Top