Wow!
8 Million Americans have Near Death Experiences according to Gallup Poll
- Thread starter Mazulu
- Start date
Wow!
What is more likely is while under anaesthetic a person will likely be staring up into the surgery lighting until they are completely under (prior to be turned over in the case of surgery on teh back). surgery lighting prior to the usage of LED's used concave mirrors to reflect the light onto a given area, so it could be suggest a person looking "into the light" would see their own reflection, due to the concave nature it wouldn't just be a reflection of their face, but of their whole body and the room from above.
Since the human mind tries to make sense of the perception subconsciously it would be assumed that they were seeing themselves floating from above.
Since the human mind tries to make sense of the perception subconsciously it would be assumed that they were seeing themselves floating from above.
Bells
Staff member
Mod Note
Yahoo answers.... Heh!
When I first noticed this thread, I had assumed it would be a discussion encompassing something remotely connected to science. Instead what I saw was a video with dodgy editing and the worst acting known to man, with bright lights and computer generated glowing golden people.
In short, 'woo'.
Moving to parapsychology.
Yahoo answers.... Heh!
When I first noticed this thread, I had assumed it would be a discussion encompassing something remotely connected to science. Instead what I saw was a video with dodgy editing and the worst acting known to man, with bright lights and computer generated glowing golden people.
In short, 'woo'.
Moving to parapsychology.
Mazulu,
What if they're just having an overactive imagination?
All the human brain does is store information in a neuronal connection network - memory locations that transmit electrical signals back and forth. So, what's the difference? Oh yes, humans have a soul and computers don't. And how do we know that? Because Mazulu says so.
You missed the point. How do you know other people have motives? Maybe they just act like they have motives and feel pain. If we made a computer to act the same way, would that mean the computer had a soul? How would you tell the difference?
This is pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo. The "consciousness field" is something you just made up. It's an ad hoc attempt to explain something for which you actually have no explanation that would stand up to any rigorous scrutiny. Let's move on.
Chances are that you're right. But you're still guessing. You can't know for sure.
You've just shown that you don't have a very good idea what a scientific model looks like.
About 120 million Americans will tell me that dinosaurs and human beings walked the Earth at the same time. (Hint: they didn't.)
I'd prefer to trust a handful of qualified neurologists and psychologists than 8 million unqualified people who have had an unusual experience and misinterpreted it.
But there isn't anything like that. You just made that up on the spot as you flailed around for an explanation.
Now you're getting it!
You're right. It is the claimant's burden to show that a circuit board is conscious. And it's your burden to show that soul exists. Because that's your claim. See?
How do you know what billions of people have seen when they haven't reported it?
Can you see how this diminishes your argument - claiming as support something for which you have zero evidence?
I thought souls were supposed to be immaterial and invisible.
What do I have to do to see a soul? It can't be hard if millions of people have seen them.
Why hasn't any scientist seen one under controlled laboratory conditions?
No. It probably means your brain is having a dream of floating above the body.
By the way, there have been a number of reports from people having NDEs of details they claim to have "seen" in the operating theatre while unconscious and floating above their bodies, which, upon checking, turned out to be wrong. That is, they "saw" things that actually weren't in the operating room at the time, or didn't see obvious things that were there. This tends to suggest that they imagined things.
Your hole-God-consciousness hypothesis is all very well, but you're still no further advanced than before in explaining or proving anything.
How could we test your idea that there is a "consciousness field", for example? More importantly, what experiment could we do that might possibly disprove the existence of a consciousness field?
What if they're just having an overactive imagination?
All the human brain does is store information in a neuronal connection network - memory locations that transmit electrical signals back and forth. So, what's the difference? Oh yes, humans have a soul and computers don't. And how do we know that? Because Mazulu says so.
You missed the point. How do you know other people have motives? Maybe they just act like they have motives and feel pain. If we made a computer to act the same way, would that mean the computer had a soul? How would you tell the difference?
This is pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo. The "consciousness field" is something you just made up. It's an ad hoc attempt to explain something for which you actually have no explanation that would stand up to any rigorous scrutiny. Let's move on.
Chances are that you're right. But you're still guessing. You can't know for sure.
You've just shown that you don't have a very good idea what a scientific model looks like.
About 120 million Americans will tell me that dinosaurs and human beings walked the Earth at the same time. (Hint: they didn't.)
I'd prefer to trust a handful of qualified neurologists and psychologists than 8 million unqualified people who have had an unusual experience and misinterpreted it.
But there isn't anything like that. You just made that up on the spot as you flailed around for an explanation.
Now you're getting it!
You're right. It is the claimant's burden to show that a circuit board is conscious. And it's your burden to show that soul exists. Because that's your claim. See?
How do you know what billions of people have seen when they haven't reported it?
Can you see how this diminishes your argument - claiming as support something for which you have zero evidence?
I thought souls were supposed to be immaterial and invisible.
What do I have to do to see a soul? It can't be hard if millions of people have seen them.
Why hasn't any scientist seen one under controlled laboratory conditions?
No. It probably means your brain is having a dream of floating above the body.
By the way, there have been a number of reports from people having NDEs of details they claim to have "seen" in the operating theatre while unconscious and floating above their bodies, which, upon checking, turned out to be wrong. That is, they "saw" things that actually weren't in the operating room at the time, or didn't see obvious things that were there. This tends to suggest that they imagined things.
Your hole-God-consciousness hypothesis is all very well, but you're still no further advanced than before in explaining or proving anything.
How could we test your idea that there is a "consciousness field", for example? More importantly, what experiment could we do that might possibly disprove the existence of a consciousness field?
Mazulu,
What if it means you waste a lot of time on stuff that isn't true? Do you give a crap about that?
Can't you enjoy the beauty of a garden without also having to believe their are fairies at the bottom of it?
Suicide is a problem for both religious people and non-religious ones.
Atheism isn't a philosophy. It's just a lack of belief in gods.
If you want a philosophy, try humanism for example.
You're way too much fun.
What if it means you waste a lot of time on stuff that isn't true? Do you give a crap about that?
Can't you enjoy the beauty of a garden without also having to believe their are fairies at the bottom of it?
Suicide is a problem for both religious people and non-religious ones.
Atheism isn't a philosophy. It's just a lack of belief in gods.
If you want a philosophy, try humanism for example.
You're way too much fun.
Moderator note: Posts on Near Death Experiences have been moved to this thread from the following thread
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...igion-is-literally-a-waste-of-time-and-energy
http://www.sciforums.com/showthread...igion-is-literally-a-waste-of-time-and-energy
kx000
Valued Senior Member
Or that an alarmingly high amount of people suffer from mental illness and hallucinations lol
You can have hallucinations without having a mental illness. High stress situations can initiate hallucinations. I would imagine a near death experience would qualify as a rather high stress situation crq.
kx000
Valued Senior Member
Still, that's a lot of people suffering from hallucination, don't you think?
spidergoat
Valued Senior Member
It's about 3%. For reference 18% of Americans believe in ghosts.
Have you ever considered that some things are real, and some people can do stuff you cannot, and the majority cannot.
You do not say oh look someone kicks a ball hard, it must be mental, just because they can do it better than you.
Also humans only have a limited perception, and do not even understand animals for the most part i would suggest. They always project what they think into animal actions, but they have no idea.
What if consciousness-God is analogous to the electron-hole from semiconductor physics. The electron has a negative charge, the hole has a positive charge, they are attracted together and the +/- charge vanishes to zero. Maybe that's why God loves us and we love God; when we die, we experience love and are re-united with God. Love is just attraction. If the electron had consciousness, maybe it would love + charged particles and hate other electrons? What if this "love" for God gets used to create other love/hate/feelings of other kinds in the same way that a V_cc voltage supply has many paths to gnd. That would mean that consciousness seeps in through all the molecules of the brain, and that consciousness really is some kind of "beyond the natural world" phenomomon.
Mazulu, amazing! You Post another well thought out, in depth, highly coherent "what if" that, once again, makes scents!
What if you ever Posted anything that didn't make scents?
Mazulu, what if you were to actually address the concerns and queries expressed by James R, in his Posts #144 and #145 ?
Then it doesn't matter.
What is the equation for love? If it's a chemical, then is the feeling of love happening at the receptor? Along the axon? Dendrite? Several neuronal networks? If so, then how do you get a bunch of chemicals to feel love (or feel anything)?
I suppose if a computer had a soul, it might love its user and download all sorts of pictures it thinks expresses love.
What's wrong with my attempt to attribute consciousness to some kind of field we haven't discovered yet? Why do you reject it out of hand? Is there are logical reason to reject it? Or does it just upset your world view?
I know that you think about what I say. As for dmoe and Q, I think they could be replaced with a computer program that picks insults at random.
I borrowed the idea from things that add to zero like the big bang energy-graviational singularity, or electron-hole creation-annihilation.
Red herring.
That is your perogative.
I guess I have to explain where spirit comes from. There is plenty of dark matter out there I could borrow from. Technically, I don't need real particles, I can use virtual dark matter particles.
So anthropormizing is bad, unless it defends against assertions that there is a soul??? Then it's good? Then the chip can say, "Ouch! Please don't do that." I thik you're trying to have it both ways.
8 million brave American reported it for the gallup pole. There are many more Americans who were not asked by the Gallup pole. There are other people around the world who are not Americans who also were not asked. There are also billions of people who died, historically speaking, before they had a chance to respond to this particular pole.
Maybe a soul is not made out of standard model particles. Therefore how could any controlled laboratory experiemtn detect it? Here is some bad humor. We could try sacrificing a theist at the LHC and see if we detect anything.
Or it means that spirits/souls are not bound by gravity.
Why would surgeons make up a story like that?
I try.
well, if a soul floats and isn't effected by gravity, then sacrificing a theist at the LHC is probably not going to reveal a soul. On the other hand, the theist will definitely know the answer.
spidergoat
Valued Senior Member
Yeah. And monkeys could fly out of my butt.
Penn and Teller did a show on NDEs. One interesting thing they brought up was that pilots tested in centrifuges who blacked out report NDE like experiences when the blood drains out of their head. The show in on youtube: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NN4EUsdOfzA. The NDE part starts at about 15 minutes into the show. Informative and entertaining.
Another thing to consider is that people who have NDEs on the operating table are often under the influence of powerful hallucinogens. One of these drugs is Ketamine, a relative of PCP (Angel Dust). Ketamine is becoming more and more commonly used as an anesthetic because it is very safe. It creates a state called dissociative anesthesia. The effects of Ketamine (in some cases) match very closely with NDEs. Out of body experience, tunnels and hallways with bright lights, complex and detailed environments, etc. Like NDEs the trip can be heaven-like or hell-like. Many reported ketamine experiences remind me of the Revelation book in the Bible. http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Ketamine.shtml Also note that ketamine is currently being investigated as a cure for depression. Which would explain the NDE and its life changing effects.
Don't forget to watch Grand Theft Auto's Ketamine scene.
Other conditions can cause NDEs in the same way as ketamine does. Changes in CO2 and hydrogen ions, as well as sodium and potassium ions can do the same thing. Here is an interesting article: http://ccforum.com/content/14/2/R56
Talk to a nurse who has worked in post operation parts of a hospital and they will tell you funny stories about what people report after coming out of an operation. Ketamine is currently used on children while mending broken bones and you can find videos of them under the influence on youtube.
One thing I would like to add is that people that are "inexperienced" in the Jimi Hendrix sense of the word, do not understand what hallucinations are, and can easily believe that their experiences can not be an hallucination. Grandma thinks she went to heaven, but the same experience to someone "experienced" will attribute it to the 'shrooms he ate. A psychonaut who experienced an NDE would recognize the similarities immediately. This is also why some psychonauts tend to be a little "out there" in their belief systems. The similarities are there and different people interpret them differently. For instance Joe Rogan's experience on DMT. I am pretty sure people who are abducted by space aliens are merely tripping. Same with NDEs.
Another thing to consider is that people who have NDEs on the operating table are often under the influence of powerful hallucinogens. One of these drugs is Ketamine, a relative of PCP (Angel Dust). Ketamine is becoming more and more commonly used as an anesthetic because it is very safe. It creates a state called dissociative anesthesia. The effects of Ketamine (in some cases) match very closely with NDEs. Out of body experience, tunnels and hallways with bright lights, complex and detailed environments, etc. Like NDEs the trip can be heaven-like or hell-like. Many reported ketamine experiences remind me of the Revelation book in the Bible. http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Ketamine.shtml Also note that ketamine is currently being investigated as a cure for depression. Which would explain the NDE and its life changing effects.
Don't forget to watch Grand Theft Auto's Ketamine scene.
Other conditions can cause NDEs in the same way as ketamine does. Changes in CO2 and hydrogen ions, as well as sodium and potassium ions can do the same thing. Here is an interesting article: http://ccforum.com/content/14/2/R56
Talk to a nurse who has worked in post operation parts of a hospital and they will tell you funny stories about what people report after coming out of an operation. Ketamine is currently used on children while mending broken bones and you can find videos of them under the influence on youtube.
One thing I would like to add is that people that are "inexperienced" in the Jimi Hendrix sense of the word, do not understand what hallucinations are, and can easily believe that their experiences can not be an hallucination. Grandma thinks she went to heaven, but the same experience to someone "experienced" will attribute it to the 'shrooms he ate. A psychonaut who experienced an NDE would recognize the similarities immediately. This is also why some psychonauts tend to be a little "out there" in their belief systems. The similarities are there and different people interpret them differently. For instance Joe Rogan's experience on DMT. I am pretty sure people who are abducted by space aliens are merely tripping. Same with NDEs.
Pam Reynolds had an anyrism on her brain stem. In order to operate on her, the blood had to be drained out of her brain and brain stem. There was close monitoring of her brain wave activity, no brain activity was found. But she had a near death experience anyway. Why?
How can you have consciousness without brain activity?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pam_Reynolds_case said:
How can you have consciousness without brain activity?
Maybe they do?
Cheezle, the problem with the whole "hallucination theory" is that the brain modulates consciousness. If you throw a hallucinen into the brain, of course it's going mess up the modulation of consciousness.
Anyway, if the brain generates conscousness, then why can't we just copy how the brain does it, and make C3PO robots? Why can't we make IC chips that experience love and hate, pain and pleasure? Why can't we do that?
Anyway, if the brain generates conscousness, then why can't we just copy how the brain does it, and make C3PO robots? Why can't we make IC chips that experience love and hate, pain and pleasure? Why can't we do that?