Ms Rowling: insightful critic of gender policy or myopic [insult]

[Sarkus]

There's a lot of hysteria here from a few people, who seem to be wanting to read in racism, transphobia and more, not only into material written or said by JKR, but also into material written and said by other people, like Jon Stewart, for example. Of course, the hysteria doesn't stop there. It extends to what people have written and said right here on sciforums.

??? Is this you telling me you haven't read what people have said without actually telling me you haven't read what people have said?

Provide evidence, for example, of where anyone has suggested that Jon Stewart has said or written anything antisemitic, or transphobic? I mean, have you actually read what has been written in this thread?

As to you actually responding to the questions I asked:...

I think it's worth injecting a reality check now and then, using what people have actually said and written. You know, to put some fact and balance into the "debate". Don't you agree?

I don’t agree that it’s worth it when it is superfluous, e.g. when, as in this case, you are simply restating what has already been posted (albeit via a link). In full. This entire thread is about what JKR has said, for example. And the tropes that are actually in the Potter books. (Have you read the books, James R?) And about what Stewart has said and written, both as criticism of the antisemitic tropes in the book, and in defence of JKR as an anti-semite.

I also don’t think it’s worth it if all you’re doing is repeating that which has already been posted, and doing so without comment. You criticise others for simply posting videos without comment, and here you were posting a response by Stewart without comment.

Is it not clear to you that Tiassa is continually cherry-picking what he quotes of articles like the BBC one? I mean, the whole article is explicitly about Jon Stewart saying he didn't mean to accuse JKR of anti-semitism. He explicitly says, in addition, that he doesn't think that the Harry Potter movies are anti-semitic. But Tiassa didn't quote any of what Jon Stewart actually said.

??? Is this you telling me you haven't read what Tiassa has said without actually telling me you haven't read what Tiassa has said?
First he links to the BBC article that has the quote in full. So he’s not hiding anything, despite your desperate wish for him to be so nefarious.
He then clearly summarises Stewart’s view. To wit:
“But Stewart didn't say Rowling is an antisemite. Rather, he observed the presence of historically antisemitic tropes in the film.” – Tiassa – post #480

Are you disagreeing with this summary of what Stewart has said, taking into account both the quote in the BBC article and what he has previously said, explicitly highlighting the presence of historically antisemitic tropes in the film?

It follows that if Tiassa - or you, or parmalee - want to argue that Harry Potter is anti-semitic, it doesn't help any of you to point to Jon Stewart and pretend that he thinks they are. It does nothing to help you make a case.

So you really haven’t read what anyone has been saying. Okay. Got it. Is there any point in me reading more of what you've offered when you misrepresent, or simply misunderstand, what people are saying.

But let’s start here: do you understand the difference between…
• That one has done something antisemitic, or resembling antisemitism.
• That one is an antisemite.
Or do you think that saying that you think someone has done something that resembles antisemitism is an accusation of them being an antisemite?

Understand? Tiassa surely does not. I don't think parmalee does, either.

The only one not understanding, James R, is you, which seems to be due to the fact you haven't actually read what people have been saying, but instead relying on your view of your history with them...

It's also no coincidence that the three of you are teaming up to try to paint myself and foghorn as anti-semites and transphobes.

WTF?
There is no "teaming up", there is also, on my part at least, no effort to try and paint anyone as an antisemite or transphobe. So an apology would be appreciated. Or can you point to anything I've said that suggests I'm trying to do that?

After all we have:

• parmalee hates foghorn and has an ongoing personal feud with him.
• Tiassa hates me, and until recently spent years persecuting a personal grudge based on his hatred.
• You and I have a recent history of some unfortunate run-ins in which you made a bit of a fool of yourself, and you're still sore about that.

As result, the three of you are running around wielding your metaphorical tar brushes with wild abandon.

Tell you what, James R, try reading and understanding what people are writing, rather than relying on your interpretation of their history. You are letting your emotions obscure you actually paying attention.

As for our own history. Sure. Whatever. There’s no defeating your delusion in such matters. You think I'm still habouring a grudge, yet you're the only one that keeps bringing up the past. Get over yourself already!

At this stage, I'm just popping in now and then to remind y'all that there are facts, because you all seem too angry to want to pay much attention to such things, most of the time.

Facts that people have already been cognisant of, and have been using in their analysis. If you want to disagree with their conclusion, simply restating the facts is showing you to be little more than a troll.

No, I'm not saying that. Did anything I post suggest that? Why do you mention it?

You didn’t post anything, James R. Hence the question I asked. I am trying to find out.

Again, no, I'm not saying that.

If, however, you want to make a case for there being something in the Harry Potter books that is antisemitic, then by all means make it. God knows nobody else has, yet.

Again, you’re really only telling me you haven’t read what anyone has said, without actually telling me. And there you were, talking about facts. You just choose to ignore them when it suits you, I guess. Ah, well.

I haven't said that. It might be true. Interesting concept though, when you think about it. Being anti-semitic inadvertently. People are to blame even when they aren't aware that they're in the wrong.

This is worse that the Thought Police. You're all trying to police people who haven't even had the thought.

No, you haven’t said anything, which is why I’m asking what you think. So, what are you saying on the matter, James R? Just repeating facts with no opinion of your own?

At the moment it’s very much like:
Teacher: “James, what is 2+2? Is it 5?”
James R: “I didn’t say that!”
Teacher: “Do you think it is 6?”
James R: “Again, no, I’m not saying that.”
Teacher: “So, what do you think it is?”
James R: “Waah! Waah! This is worse than the Thought Police!”

Oh, so now you want to know my view, Sarkus? Really? I don't think you do. I think you're just looking for excuses to continue to persecute a grudge.

There’s no grudge, James R. Not on my side, at least. Notice that you’re the one who keeps bringing up the notion. You’re the one that keeps reflecting back. All I see is you trying to avoid having to respond to what is actually asked of you, and what is actually said.

Made you think, didn't I? Well, almost.

You made me think that I was right that you haven’t read, or at least haven’t understood, what people have been saying in this thread. You have maybe given a cursory look, but you haven’t really understood. You see the players, and you unfortunately just fill in the gaping holes with whatever satisfies your agenda.

Therefore you misrepresent, argue strawmen, and you make yourself irrelevant to the actual discussion.

That’s what I think.

 

[foghorn]

.

 

[parmalee]

Is it not clear to you that Tiassa is continually cherry-picking what he quotes of articles like the BBC one? I mean, the whole article is explicitly about Jon Stewart saying he didn't mean to accuse JKR of anti-semitism. He explicitly says, in addition, that he doesn't think that the Harry Potter movies are anti-semitic. But Tiassa didn't quote any of what Jon Stewart actually said.

But Stewart didn't say Rowling is an antisemite. Rather, he observed the presence of historically antisemitic tropes in the film. And that's the (not so) tricky part: People give themselves away when they fall back to dualism like that.

 

[parmalee]

Prediction:

JamesR will move the preceding several posts to the Cesspool and give them a "clever" little title like this:

"Sarkus and Parmalee make wild accusations against the esteemed moderator, JamesR"

Basis for this prediction? Patterns of behavior observed over the past 15 years, and a history of doing precisely this--usually including insults directed at members here--countless times in the past.

 

[parmalee]

There's a lot of hysteria here from a few people, who seem to be wanting to read in transphobia and more, not only into material written or said by JKR...

With respect to transphobia only, is there anyone here--other than yourself--who does not regard JKR's views as transphobic? From what I can see, the following persons have indicated that they consider JKR's views transphobic ( and I may be overlooking a few, as this is from a cursory review of just the past few pages): myself, Billvon, Tiassa, Sarkus, Pinball, Dave, TheVat. Which parties are "hysterical" here, and which are not?

(Also, apologies for making multiple posts--and feel free to combine such into one or two posts (if there's a sound logistical reason for doing such, of course). Frankly, you are one of the more dishonest persons I've ever encountered, and such is more easily digestible when broken up into bits. The problem is this: I know you're not stupid and I'm also fairly confident that you do not struggle with reading comprehension--so what's the deal?

Now, as to whether you can distinguish between someone saying that a person has said or done something antisemitic (or that there are antisemitic tropes present within their work), and someone saying that a person is an antisemite? That's something else entirely. Can you?)

 

[DaveC426913]

Prediction:

JamesR will move the preceding several posts to the Cesspool and give them a "clever" little title like this:

"Sarkus and Parmalee make wild accusations against the esteemed moderator, JamesR"

Basis for this prediction? Patterns of behavior observed over the past 15 years, and a history of doing precisely this--usually including insults directed at members here--countless times in the past.

This would be a self-fulfilling prediction. It is pretty apparent you are trying your best to make it happen, calling him "fucking stupid", a "lying, bigoted troll" and a "prick", just to reference a few recent posts.

No points for predicting something you are doing your best to instigate yourself.

 

[DaveC426913]

With respect to transphobia only, is there anyone here--other than yourself--who does not regard JKR's views as transphobic? From what I can see, the following persons have indicated that they consider JKR's views transphobic ( and I may be overlooking a few, as this is from a cursory review of just the past few pages): myself, Billvon, Tiassa, Sarkus, Pinball, Dave, TheVat. Which parties are "hysterical" here, and which are not?

I do not belong on this list. I have not explicitly indicated I find her views transphobic. I have some issues with them, but I have not signed up for a Rowling-Haters membership card, thanks.

 

[parmalee]

This would be a self-fulfilling prediction. It is pretty apparent you are trying your best to make it happen, calling him "fucking stupid", a "lying, bigoted troll" and a "prick", just to reference a few recent posts.

No points for predicting something you are doing your best to instigate yourself.

Did you miss this?

Foghorn has stated or implied that Jews are "happy" to portray Jewish stereotypes...

Where? And are they?

James appears to be asking, "Are Jews happy to portray Jewish stereotypes?" Yes?

Also, is asked if he was "that fucking stupid". According to James, the question mark erases the possibility for insinuation, apparently.

 

[parmalee]

I do not belong on this list. I have not explicitly indicated I find her views transphobic. I have some issues with them, but I have not signed up for a Rowling-Haters membership card, thanks.

You did say this, however:

She does not make a compelling argument. It is certainly her personal journey, but it doesn't make many good points that might apply on a more objective scale.

One example:
- the sole requirement for someone to demand they be considered a female is that they decide they identify as female.
- gendered washrooms allow anyone in who identifies as female
- this provides a loophole where men (specifically abusers, predators) have access to women's washrooms.
She wants to close this loophole.
...
It's a terrible red herring argument that (not to put too fine a point on it) is a ploy almost universally used by bigots.

(Emphasis added.)

 

[DaveC426913]

You did say this, however:

(Emphasis added.)

Yes. I get angry. Psychopaths get angry. It does not follow though, that I am asserting I am a psychopath.

 

[Sarkus]

With respect to transphobia only, is there anyone here--other than yourself--who does not regard JKR's views as transphobic? From what I can see, the following persons have indicated that they consider JKR's views transphobic ( and I may be overlooking a few, as this is from a cursory review of just the past few pages): myself, Billvon, Tiassa, Sarkus, Pinball, Dave, TheVat. Which parties are "hysterical" here, and which are not?

Hmm. Not sure I've commented on whether I consider her views transphobic or not. I've actively tried to avoid doing so as I'm pretty ignorant on the whole matter. Yeah, cowardly of me, but honest.
I really only chipped in with regard the antisemitism and Potter.

 

[parmalee]

Yes. I get angry. Psychopaths get angry. It does not follow though, that I am asserting I am a psychopath.

???

It's a terrible red herring argument that (not to put too fine a point on it) is a ploy almost universally used by bigots.

(Emphasis added again.)

Also, I said this:

From what I can see, the following persons have indicated that they consider JKR's views transphobic...

I said absolutely nothing about this:

I have not signed up for a Rowling-Haters membership card

 

[DaveC426913]

Did you miss this?

James appears to be asking, "Are Jews happy to portray Jewish stereotypes?" Yes?

Also, is asked if he was "that fucking stupid". According to James, the question mark erases the possibility for insinuation, apparently.

How does any of this address my point that you are predicting an action that you are violently attempting to instigate yourself?

It's mot just an academic point. This thread is not your personal private fight with James. You have an obligation to keep a civil tongue in your head for the sake of others who are trying to participate. If you can't, consider maybe your involvement in this thread is less about the thread topic and more about your personal axe to grind. Fer cryin' out loud.

 

[DaveC426913]

???

(Emphasis added again.)

Follow my analogy:

I do X. Psychopaths also do X. It does not follow that I am a psychopath. Agree?

JKR does X. Bigots do X. It does not follow that JKR is a bigot.

And maybe be a little more forgiving of other peoples' comprehension, before accusing others of "can't you fucking read"...

Also, I said this:
"From what I can see, the following persons have indicated that they consider JKR's views transphobic..."

Well I haven't, so I am removing myself from your list.

 

[parmalee]

How does any of this address my point that you are predicting an action that you are violently attempting to instigate yourself?

It's more that I was backing up the assertion re: "lying bigoted troll". The lying and trolling are evident by virtue of having routinely misrepresented my own statements, as well as those made by several other posters. That question certainly suggest bigotry to me. Also, it was just one example. I've provided others elsewhere. Though really my contention is more that James provides cover for bigotry.

It's mot just an academic point. This thread is not your personal private fight with James. You have an obligation to keep a civil tongue in your head for the sake of others who are trying to participate. If you can't, consider maybe you involvement in this thread is less about the thread topic and more about your personal axe to grind. Fer cryin' out loud.

99 percent of the time, I am entirely in agreement with you here. However, in this case, James has been trolling throughout most of this thread and I'm just sick and tired of it.

 

[parmalee]

Follow my analogy:

I do X. Psychopaths also do X. It does not follow that I am a psychopath. Agree?

JKR does X. Bigots do X. It does not follow that JKR is a bigot.

And maybe be a little more forgiving of other peoples' comprehension, before accusing others of "can't you fucking read"...



Well I haven't, so I am removing myself from your list.

Again, I said:

they consider JKR's views transphobic

There is a distinction.

Edit: Also note the "indicated" part--I was drawing an inference from what you had said.

 

[DaveC426913]

.... by virtue of having routinely misrepresented my own statements, as well as those made by several other posters.

You mean like you just did? At least two people have had to come out and correct your list.

You commit the very crime you cast filth at James for.

99 percent of the time, I am entirely in agreement with you here. However, in this case, James has been trolling throughout most of this thread and I'm just sick and tired of it.

It's called disagreeing, or having a different viewpoint. I have a different one too.

As for trolling, I strongly suspect that what you are sensing is James' loss of patience with such things as the hypocrisy, noted immediately above and below.

Look, if you try this hard to drag this to an arena of dirty fighting, you can't then accuse your opponent of fighting dirty.

Edit: Also note the "indicated" part--I was drawing an inference from what you had said.

And in doing so, you ... "misrepresented my own statements, as well as those made by several other posters. "

But that's a pretty far cry from being a "lying, bigoted, fucking stupid prick".

 

[parmalee]

You mean like you just did? At least two people who have had to come out and correct your list.

And you misrepresented me--nowhere did I say anything about "hating JKR". In fact, I quite clearly stated that the persons named have indicated that they find JKR's views transphobic (or bigoted in that sense)--nothing about JKR herself.

Moreover, James has repeatedly misrepresented several posters within this thread. Read the thread. Has anyone said that JKR is an antisemite? How many times have I, and others, had to clarify--to James--that the matter being discussed is the presence of antisemtic tropes within the work, not whether or not Rowling is an antisemite. And so on and so on--again: Read the thread.

As for trolling, perhaps what you are sensing is James' loss of patience with such things as the hypocrisy, noted immediately above.

???

Do you seriously not see the innumerable places wherein James has made baseless insinuations against me, Sarkus, Tiassa, and Billvon? And argued against straw men of his own design again and again?

 

[DaveC426913]

And you misrepresented me--nowhere did I say anything about "hating JKR".

Where did I claim you did? Are you misrepresenting me?

In fact, I quite clearly stated that the persons named have indicated that they find JKR's views transphobic (or bigoted in that sense)--nothing about JKR herself.

Thus, misrepresenting me. Something you accuse James of doing. So which is it? OK, or not OK?

Moreover, James has repeatedly misrepresented several posters within this thread. Read the thread.

I'm having to deal with your behaviour, here, now.

You can't justify your deliberate attempt to get infracted and then fobbed off to the Cesspool by saying "well, he started it!"

If you are so emotional that you can't participate without torpedoing the thread, that might be a good indication to step back and reexamine your motives.

Do you seriously not see the innumerable places wherein James has made baseless insinuations against me, Sarkus, Tiassa, and Billvon? And argued against straw men of his own design again and again?

I don't see where he's called you a prick and a fucking idiot.

This is why we can't have nice things.

 

[parmalee]

And in doing so, you ... "misrepresented my own statements, as well as those made by several other posters. "

But that's a pretty far cry from being a "lying, bigoted, fucking stupid prick".

You may have noticed that somewhere above I described James as one of the more dishonest posters I've ever encountered. That was not an exaggeration, and it's based upon seeing his dishonesty and misrepresentation again and again over 15 years. Also note that I am civil with pretty much everyone, unless they are dishonest and bigoted (see foghorn, for instance, or Trek). I've lost patience with James and will accord him the same respect he accords other posters--in my own way (that is to say, I have no patience for dishonest, bigoted, and/or bad faith actors).