Ms Rowling: insightful critic of gender policy or myopic [insult]

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You left out "liars be liars."

But you'll note that direct quotes from JKR have been provided multiple times within this thread, including the tweets in which she refers to trans women as "trans identified men" (not gonna link such again--just click a radnom page and you'll likely find some of these direct quotes); I have shown, again, where JKR mentions contemplating whether she might have transitioned had she been born 30 years later--and because "the allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge"; nowhere have I stated that I support making threats towards JKR; nowhere have I stated or implied that JKR is an antisemite--in fact, I have stated repeatedly that the sort of antisemitic content as found with the Harry Potter universe is ubiquitous within our culture, a product of centuries of antisemitic propaganda from Christendom, and therefore virtually everyone would be an antisemite if we considered such based on the sheer prevalence across so much content across the board; nowhere have I stated or implied that "a transphobe must also be a racist and a misogynist, according to (me)"... I could go on, but these are just a few examples just from this page alone.


Edit: Oh, also, I did the socially responsible thing by making it clear that ferric chloride is one of the most toxic methods for etching and there are better alternatives, tangential though that may be.
 
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Actually, regarding that ferric chloride bit, I'm pretty conscientious in in my use in all respects save one: I'm not terribly careful about not getting the stuff on me. I mean, I don't wear gloves and all that. It's never caused any skin irritation or anything of the sort, so, who knows?, maybe it wouldn't harm my eyes? It's not like my eyes are made of metal, so far as I know. Or, I might find out that I am a cyborg.
 
If we could do a small reset, and perhaps James and Parm are done flirting for a while, then I would offer this analysis from Helen Lewis (re the arguments and evidence for puberty blockers) for its detailed look at what is known and what is commonly believed about the procedure. Someone sent me this over a year ago, and I kept intending to get back to it and offer a gift link here.
That article is about 60% well reasoned argument and 40% a case of "starting with a desired outcome and working backwards from there."

Her biggest stumble comes from claiming puberty blockers make you sterile. Simply not true, unless you are pairing them with another treatment (like hormone therapy.) Blockers are used all the time on cis children with very few bad outcomes, and there is no evidence that being trans makes this any worse. And puberty blockers are by far the least invasive and most easily reversible form of gender-affirming care.

A second problem is her claim about suicide in trans kids. They are, as she point out, very rare. However, her conclusion seems to be "so therefore we should never provide them gender affirming care." Suicide IS a problem with trans kids, which up until now has not been a huge one since gender-affirming care was available for the worst cases of gender dysphoria. But that is changing. A recent study showed that suicide attempts by transgender and gender nonconforming teenagers has increased by 72% in states that have recently banned gender affirming care - so it is an issue. And even the worst critics of trans kids would likely agree that gender reassignment surgery on a 16 year old - even if they later regretted it - is preferable to their death.

Then she makes a REALLY dumb argument. "If we are now just letting kids do whatever they want with their bodies, why not let them get married at 12, or drink alcohol at 13, or consent to sex at 14 with an adult partner?" We DO allow 13 year olds to try alcohol with their parents (i.e. they are home and they have a sip of wine.) This has to be agreed to by the parent, of course, who likely knows their child well enough to know if they will be OK trying alcohol. Just like gender affirming care.

And sex at age 14? In Oklahoma you can legally get married at age 10 with permission of their parents and consent of a local court. Just as gender affirming surgery in kids under 18 can only occur with permission of parents and consent of a doctor. And due to the way Oklahoma defines both marriage and rape, the husband having sex with that 10 year old is not illegal.

"But that almost never happens!" That's exactly right. Just as underage GRS almost never happens.
 
If he said something recklessly in error, some hint of correction would have appeared in his later posts, but look at how everything in that big ask is told from a rightist, anti-trans, narrative:
It is none of those things. Stop lying about what other people said and meant. And then spinning it further to make everyone who doesn't precisely agree with your talking points out to be some Far Right transphobe. Your lack of willingness to understand people, you eagerness to link older posts and endlessly "remind" us, so that you can score rhetorical points and look good is the lowest form of sophistry. You fool no one.

The notion that anyone asking questions about how trans people should access public spaces, the notion that any deviation from some perfected received wisdom you are privy to is somehow bigoted, is the sort of tactic that Maoist brigades used during the Cultural Revolution. Your intolerance is breathtaking, and apparently so ingrained that you simply cannot see it in yourself.
 
And, honestly, it seems somehow significant that the Rowling riders need to be shielded from that part of the discussion
Your snide and idiotic insinuation that somehow everyone here who fails to completely condemn Rowling is in lockstep, that we are all "Rowling Riders" with the same exact opinions on all aspects of this issue, is the quintessence of bigotry. You strip away the individuality of every member here that you tar with your Rowling Riders brush, which is page one in the Bigots Playbook. I will ask you this once: do not speak to me in this thread or any other. Do not quote me. Do not take my words and shape them in distorted ways and then feed them back to me. Now, fuck off.
 
Her biggest stumble comes from claiming puberty blockers make you sterile. Simply not true, unless you are pairing them with another treatment (like hormone therapy.) Blockers are used all the time on cis children with very few bad outcomes, and there is no evidence that being trans makes this any worse. And puberty blockers are by far the least invasive and most easily reversible form of gender-affirming care.
Yes, I wondered about her sources there. I wlll try to track those down and see what sense can be made.

A second problem is her claim about suicide in trans kids. They are, as she point out, very rare. However, her conclusion seems to be "so therefore we should never provide them gender affirming care." Suicide IS a problem with trans kids, which up until now has not been a huge one since gender-affirming care was available for the worst cases of gender dysphoria. But that is changing. A recent study showed that suicide attempts by transgender and gender nonconforming teenagers has increased by 72% in states that have recently banned gender affirming care - so it is an issue. And even the worst critics of trans kids would likely agree that gender reassignment surgery on a 16 year old - even if they later regretted it - is preferable to their death.
I can't tell if we have muddy statistics here or not. I would have to see the study you mention. Also, I would need to see if there is a middle ground, e.g. where someone with GD can access therapy and support, even if it doesn't extend to early surgery. If I understand this, denying gender affirming care is not denial just of one procedure. Do youth who can still get therapeutic care and an understanding they do have options in the future still suicide at higher rates? I think scientific rigor should require that we determine if there are real cases where the alternative is the exact binary of "surgery or suicide." We also don't have clean statistical samples that clarify that all these suicides are specifically owing to delayed sexual reassignment. In teenage years, there are multiple social variables at work, no? I would think that most people would be MORE open (for their children or others) to pubertal delay in the early/mid teens than they would be to surgery or GA hormonal treatments at that age. I mean, usually people are more receptive to delaying a difficult and fraught decision with permanent consequences, and the option that allows that.
Then she makes a REALLY dumb argument. "If we are now just letting kids do whatever they want with their bodies, why not let them get married at 12, or drink alcohol at 13, or consent to sex at 14 with an adult partner?" We DO allow 13 year olds to try alcohol with their parents (i.e. they are home and they have a sip of wine.) This has to be agreed to by the parent, of course, who likely knows their child well enough to know if they will be OK trying alcohol. Just like gender affirming care.
Not all Helen's analogies are polished diamonds. This was one such. And I generally think analogies are weak when we are talking about gender reassignment, due to its singular qualities which do not compare readily to other life changes. So I'd vote for avoiding them generally, but that's just me.
 
Do not take my words and shape them in distorted ways and then feed them back to me. Now, fuck off
That's telling. You meet an exchemist and disagree, you joust intellectually like gentlemen.
You disagree with me? I expect a googly at some point with a salient punchline at my expense. I have to be on my toes.
All the other guys are variation on a theme.
With Tiassa, your parting delivery is "fuck off."

I think that is telling.
 
Rowling is in lockstep, that we are all "Rowling Riders"
Yes Tiassa You can stop that RIGHT NOW. I have been pulled by the mods for an unacceptable post, against the rules. Fair enough, I have apologised for that.
So, you can refer to individuals who post on the site by their names, they are all on here including me, Pinball1970, it is not difficult.
 
Yes Tiassa You can stop that RIGHT NOW. I have been pulled by the mods for an unacceptable post, against the rules. Fair enough, I have apologised for that.
So, you can refer to individuals who post on the site by their names, they are all on here including me, Pinball1970, it is not difficult.
 
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… then I would offer this analysis from Helen Lewis (re the arguments and evidence for puberty blockers) for its detailed look at what is known and what is commonly believed about the procedure.

I am, of course, tempted to demand that you produce the original essay Lewis is criticizing, but I've already been through this, before, with people misreading queer context and getting all upset, and I know from experience that nothing really changes the traditionalist assertion of context. Here's an example:

Whenever I read Chu's work, I get the sense that she's mocking the strand of feminism for which I have argued all my adult life. The project of feminism, from Mary Wollstonecraft onwards, has been to decouple the material reality of being born female from notions of passivity and femininity. But in her book, Females, Chu writes enthusiastically about "sissy porn," in which "getting fucked makes you female because fucked is what a female is." (Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer the more standard definition of XX chromosomes and the body type evolved to produce large gametes.) Shorn of identifying information, the author of that quotation could be assumed to be an old-school misogynist rather than a darling of the progressive left.

(Lewis↱)

Whenever she reads Chu's work? Well, consider, for a moment, that she didn't need to read Chu's work in order to write that paragraph; in discussing the book, Lewis links out to a fellow terf's opinion article↱, which in turn refers to an excerpt posted at an anti-liberal reactionary site, with commentary by anti-feminist James Lindsay. Hint: They're all missing the point.

It's possible to use Google Books↱ to double-check Lindsay's treatment of the text, and, as we might expect, it's unreliable; Females (2019), is subversive, humorous commentary throughout.

Let's start with Lindsay's discussion↱ of Chu: "A 'universal vagina' is an anus ('through which femaleness can always be accessed')," Lindsay explains, "at least according to some activists broadly working within the realms of trans rights activism, gender studies, and queer Theory." It is an interesting perspective, especially since he explains where he gets it, "The use of this term arose from trans-identifying activist and author Andrea Long Chu in the 2019 Females, which characterizes femaleness as, shall we say, sexual reception, inter alia."

To be clear, what Lindsay refers to, here, is Chu's explanation of "sissy porn". The idea that "getting fucked makes you female because fucked is what a female is" describes attitudes present in "sissy porn". Lindsay, the self-proclaimed slow learner↑, gets it utterly wrong, but don't let that bother you, the others didn't.

Terf author and activist Joan Smith, relying on Lindsay, asserts:

Chu clearly has a very distorted idea of what being a woman is, conflating the idea with being passive and victimised in language so extreme that it’s distasteful to quote. The writer describes being a "sad, pretentious boy, furious about rape, hopelessly addicted to pornography", which he would look at for hours in the bathroom while his girlfriend was asleep. Apologies to sensitive readers, but what Chu learned from this experience is that "getting fucked makes you female because fucked is what a female is".

And this is the basis for Helen Lewis' "old-fashioned" complaint. She's not so much criticizing Chu directly as getting all hot and bothered by what her fellows told her. "Shorn of identifying information," Lewis chides, "the author of that quotation could be assumed to be an old-school misogynist rather than a darling of the progressive left." And in its true form, as a component of "sissy porn", it is, in fact, old-school misogyny. As such, we might question why Lewis sought to distort the quotation. But we can see Lewis' priorities; she reasserts against science ("Call me old-fashioned, but I prefer the more standard definition of XX chromosomes and the body type evolved to produce large gametes") and fallaciously criticizes "the progressive left".

Compared to a "detailed look at what is known and what is commonly believed", no, Lewis offers more of a personal insight that is fundamentally unreliable, or perhaps we might suggest its most reliable honesty is its unreliability, i.e., we get to know a little more how she feels about her own fancy.

"A small reset", then.
____________________

Notes:

Lewis, Helen. "The Worst Argument for Youth Transition". The Atlantic. 19 March 2024. TheAtlantic.com. 6 July 2025. https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2024/03/trans-youth-transition-andrea-long-chu/677796/

Lindsay, James. "Universal Vagina". New Discourses. 2021. NewDiscourses.com. 6 July 2025. https://newdiscourses.com/tftw-universal-vagina/

Long Chu, Andrea. Females. London & New York: Verso, 2019. Google.com. 6 July 2025. https://www.google.com/books/edition/Females/3zOGDwAAQBAJ

Smith, Joan. "Andrea Long Chu's Pulitzer win is an insult to women". UnHerd. 12 May 2023. UnHerd.com. 6 July 2025. https://unherd.com/newsroom/andrea-long-chus-pulitzer-win-is-an-insult-to-women/

See Also:

Hébert, L. Camille. "Defining 'Woman': Biological Sex and Gender". The Journal of Gender, Race, and Justice, v.27, i.2. 2024. JGRL.Law.UIowa.edu. 6 July 2025. https://jgrj.law.uiowa.edu/sites/jgrj.law.uiowa.edu/files/2024-05/Defining women.pdf
 
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I will ask you this once: do not speak to me in this thread or any other. Do not quote me. Do not take my words and shape them in distorted ways and then feed them back to me. Now, fuck off.

Uh-huh. Poor you:

Hey, since you clearly don't know the first thing about me, have chosen to utterly misinterpret my intentions and ideas, and seem hellbent on identifying me with groups antithetical to my left/socialist/humanist perspective, let's just not talk, okay?

So, yeah, thing is, in some ways it looks like I was pretty close: From the anti-liberal misogynist and self-described "slow learner" Lindsay to the terf Smith to the terf Lewis to someone to you; as a matter of being identified with groups antithetical to the left/socialist/humanist perspective you claim, that's not me, you did that yourself. And it's true, from my perspective, no, I'm not at all surprised you're bringing Lewis; you've been signaling the whole time.

It's kind of like the discussion of tarls: "The TARL's primary concern, to hear him tell it, lies in protecting free speech and civil society from the illiberal forces of the woke left" (qtd. in Lewis), which pretty much sums up the pretense of your thread. Thing is, "trans-agnostic" is just another word for science denial. And the idea of a reactionary liberal never rings true when it seeks↑ rightist and superstitious outcomes.

Think of it this way: You brought Helen Lewis. Testing Lewis' claims was as obvious a first thing to do as there is, and it went about as poorly as her reputation would suggest to pretty much anyone paying attention.

Because, remember those things I say about what people forgot↑, or how strange↑ it is that Sciforums is where people finally learn about something, and the thing is that, taken in the best of faith, apparently you didn't know. So, before you do the thing↑ again↑, please just think about the implication: If you already knew, and didn't forget, but you brought Helen Lewis in an uncritical presentation intended to "do a small reset" because, well, okay, why?

You brought Helen Lewis: What is anyone supposed to interpret, from that, of your intentions and ideas?

To reiterate↑: The thread was always intended as a defense for Rowling in particular and anti-trans crackpottery, in general; its pretense of neutrality is invested in centering superstition and bigotry within the overton range.

So, look, y'know, maybe you don't like how I view your performance, but you're also welcome to stop playing the part.
 
A second problem is her claim about suicide in trans kids. They are, as she point out, very rare. However, her conclusion seems to be "so therefore we should never provide them gender affirming care." Suicide IS a problem with trans kids, which up until now has not been a huge one since gender-affirming care was available for the worst cases of gender dysphoria. But that is changing. A recent study showed that suicide attempts by transgender and gender nonconforming teenagers has increased by 72% in states that have recently banned gender affirming care - so it is an issue. And even the worst critics of trans kids would likely agree that gender reassignment surgery on a 16 year old - even if they later regretted it - is preferable to their death.
Re: the bolded portion, I'm honestly not so sure about that. Nah, that's too vague: I think you are incorrect here. I mean, we've already seen that this does not hold for abortion, so why would it necessarily for trans kids? Just because they're kids? Again: With abortion, we've seen that for many, death of the mother is preferable to the abortion; but we've also seen that their concern for life seems to abruptly cease upon birth of the child.
 
I can't tell if we have muddy statistics here or not. I would have to see the study you mention.
I don't think you ever will see a statistically significant result here simply because there are so few of them. The US average less than 30* gender-affirming surgeries of ANY type in under-18 patients a year, and most of those are age 16 or 17. So you're not going to get a statistically significant sample.

(* - which is ironic; based on the hue and cry from the right you would think the US was doing hundreds of these a day.)

Also, I would need to see if there is a middle ground, e.g. where someone with GD can access therapy and support, even if it doesn't extend to early surgery. If I understand this, denying gender affirming care is not denial just of one procedure. Do youth who can still get therapeutic care and an understanding they do have options in the future still suicide at higher rates?

Absolutely. For example, one study found a 33% reduction in suicide attempts if the kid had even a single adult in their lives they could talk to about being nonbinary or trans. Unfortunately, there is now a war against such adults, calling them "groomers" and "pedophiles" for talking to kids about such issues. And most laws against gender-affirming care include both puberty blockers and counseling.

 
Yeah, I've noticed that the lying troll seems a bit obsessed with threats against JKR, but has yet to even acknowledge threats, and actual violence, against doctors, trans people, etc.
This is a textbook example of the "Red herring" fallacy.

That's a broad umbrella category of fallacious arguments. This particular instance might be classified as a Tu quoque fallacy or as an attempt to poison the well. And, of course, it's also an ad hominem fallacy.

The aim here is to emotionally appeal to an audience in order to try to avoid criticism of one's own position or argument and to demonise one's opponent by introducing an irrelevancy.

We could certainly talk about threats against doctors or bullfighters or astronauts. But in this thread, the topic is JK Rowling, so we are talking about threats made against JKR in response to her public comments on certain transgender issues.

parmalee has not once asked me what I think about threats made against trans people. Instead, he wants to imply - dishonestly - that I don't care about such things. More importantly, for his purposes, he wants to try to distract from addressing the actual issue of threats made by "trans activists" against JKR.

It's a real pity that parmalee can't discuss these issues honestly, without using fallacious pseudo-arguments.
(I could also add here that we have actual proof for these things, and numbers; given JKR's history with trying to conceal posts and such, who knows about the legitimacy of these alleged threats?...
More well poisoning from parmalee, this time aimed at JKR. Note the complete lack of evidence from parmalee, as usual.
 
JK Rowling said:
The writings of young trans men reveal a group of notably sensitive and clever people. The more of their accounts of gender dysphoria I’ve read, with their insightful descriptions of anxiety, dissociation, eating disorders, self-harm and self-hatred, the more I’ve wondered whether, if I’d been born 30 years later, I too might have tried to transition. The allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge. I struggled with severe OCD as a teenager. If I’d found community and sympathy online that I couldn’t find in my immediate environment, I believe I could have been persuaded to turn myself into the son my father had openly said he’d have preferred.
A rare quote from JKR herself.

Which part of this does parmalee particularly despise? If only he would tell us, rather than relying on fallacies all the time.
 
You left out "liars be liars."

But you'll note that direct quotes from JKR have been provided multiple times within this thread, including the tweets in which she refers to trans women as "trans identified men"...
When the topic of debate is specifically whether a trans man ought to be considered indistinguishable from a cis woman for one purpose or another, it becomes important to specify precisely what one is talking about when one mentions sex and/or gender.

I would have thought this would be obvious enough.
I have shown, again, where JKR mentions contemplating whether she might have transitioned had she been born 30 years later--and because "the allure of escaping womanhood would have been huge"
And so... what?
... nowhere have I stated that I support making threats towards JKR;
Do you support making threats towards JKR? That is, are you going to state that you do not support it? Just so we're all clear?
... nowhere have I stated or implied that JKR is an antisemite
Are you going to state that you don't think JKR is an antisemite, or leave that one hanging, too?
... nowhere have I stated or implied that "a transphobe must also be a racist and a misogynist, according to (me)"...
You've said you think those bigotries are correlated: if you have one, you're likely to have others. Or don't you think that?
I could go on, but these are just a few examples just from this page alone.
Examples of what?
 
So, yeah, thing is, in some ways it looks like I was pretty close: From the anti-liberal misogynist and self-described "slow learner" Lindsay to the terf Smith to the terf Lewis to someone to you; as a matter of being identified with groups antithetical to the left/socialist/humanist perspective you claim, that's not me, you did that yourself.
I just want everybody to note the hate speech here. Tiassa calls out several people, including a member of sciforums, and accuses them of all being "anti-liberal", "misogynist", "slow learners", "terfs" and "antithetical to the left/socialist/humanist perspective".

This, too, is nothing more than a bigoted and angry ad hominem attack.

It's kind of like the discussion of tarls: "The TARL's primary concern, to hear him tell it, lies in protecting free speech and civil society from the illiberal forces of the woke left" (qtd. in Lewis)...
Wow! A new acroynm to add to Tiassa's favorite acronyms of abuse, beside "TERF". What, I wonder, is a "TARL"?

Why not just skip to the chase and write "c**ts" for all these hated groups? That seems to be the kind of slur that Tiassa has in mind when he writes this stuff.

To reiterate↑: The thread was always intended as a defense for Rowling in particular and anti-trans crackpottery, in general...
We don't know what was "always intended" for this thread. All we know for sure is what content appears in it.

According to Tiassa, somebody always has an evil agenda. That justifies his hatred, you see.
 
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