Just gonna add here real quick: it's interesting that a "moderator", who professes to have read the thread, just glosses over the overtly bigoted and antisemitic posts by another member here (just over the past two pages), but makes the time to make an utterly incoherent response to me. I could also say something about this being perhaps indicative of apologetics or advocacy for... well, that should be pretty obvious.
Ms Rowling: insightful critic of gender policy or myopic [insult]
- Thread starter TheVat
- Start date
Hah! Missed this in my first perusal of this garbage, but... wwwhhaaatt?!
This is what I said:
How on earth is that equivalent to saying that "(I), personally, don't think that the goblin bankers in Harry Potter..."? Seriously, dude, seek medical help or something.
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
I have not read the books. What are the other racist tropes? Levelled at JKR? Besides the Irish guy blowing stuff up with a very Irish name?
DaveC426913
Valued Senior Member
Just stumbled across this meme.
None as obvious as the goblins / Jews, because, on the whole, the story is about white people. Different races come across mostly as tokenism, and on the whole there is very little charcterisation at all.
But even within what there is there are stereotypes: the token black wizard being called Kingsley Shacklebolt and helping the white saviours. Cho Chang (two surnames that certainly sound East Asian, but fit no real naming convention, and presumably the name is simply to accentuate the fact that, gasp, she's from E.Asian descent) mostly being used as a love-interest. And yeah, Seamus Finnigan, blowing things up, and of course, the one character that tries to turn water into alcohol is Seamus - playing into the "drunken Irish" stereotype.
Stereotypes are a common tool in Western culture (I have next-to-zero experience of any other). They're easy, familiar, and efficient. Most of the time they just drift us by, either because they're genuinely harmless, or because of our own blindspots, and often we might recognise them as "being a tad off" but not sufficient for us to do anything about it. There are times, though, when their use, unintentional or otherwise, sticks out and makes us go "um, excuse me?" In HP books
There are other somewhat "off" ideas, such as House-Elf narrative that promotes the idea that enslaved people are better off, or even happy, being enslaved. Sure, Hermione tries to stand up for house-elf rights, but it's for comic relief rather than treated with any seriousness. Dobby's the exception in elf-world, in that he actually wants freedom. More evidence of lazy writing than anything else, I think (i.e. have a point to make for plot purposes, but fail to go any deeper into the underlying issues raised, and thereby risk perpetuating negativity: "slaves like being slaves!")
So they were "oppressed, marginalized, mistreated races" that were considered vermin, and could be exterminated with no consequences - indeed, in Discworld, it was often implied that exterminating them was a wise course of action. They had an unusual langauge that was hard for the higher races to understand. But that's not "any more Jewishness" than the bare minumum. And could be any race!
But Rowling makes them short and makes them really like money - and that's an outrageous, obvious, offensive comparison to Jews.
OK then.
You do know that more races than Jews have been oppressed, marginalised, and mistreated, right? And have an unusual language? Just look at the indigenous population of North America as an example.
Ooh, is this "argue a strawman" time? Can I have a go??
If all you think Rowling did is "make them short and make them really like money" then there's little point in continuing, as you're simply not being honest.
Start with the fact that she called them "goblins" that, without anything to suggest otherwise, comes with a history of antisemitic baggage. Pratchett, Tolkein, and Gygax all pretty much reinvent their versions, and don't lean into the Jewish stereotype. What does Rowling do? She seems to go with it. Embraces it, even. She doesn't explicitly describe them as looking Jewish, but she also doesn't dispel that idea. Lazy.
The films take it further, for sure, but because Rowling was lazy, they're really just filling in what many were already seeing.
Maybe you honestly don't see the difference. Then, sure, whatever.
As for it being an "outrageous, obvious, offensive comparison to Jews" - each to their own as to how outrageous, obvious, and offensive they see it, if at all. As has been suggested, some might even be "happy" with it all. Personally, I found it uncomfortable. Unintentional, due to lazy writing, but avoidable with a bit more care and attention.
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TheVat
Registered Senior Member
It doesn't. I think the chat keeps circling back to "lazy writing" and that seems a sufficient indictment for a non-HP fan like me. I think JK's unconscious (as with many authors) blurps up detritus and she tosses it in without much interrogation of the old brain. Not having read HP books, the goblin bankers thing was new to me, but I can see it when pointed out and it shines as clearly as blood libel or shylockian tropes. For a smart lady, JK can be a real dumbass sometimes. If this thread has done nothing else, it's encouraged me to steer future grandchildren away from HP and towards Sherman Alexei or Judy Blume instead.
Читайте им русские народные сказки, Теват. Про Бабу Ягу, Кощея Бессмертного, Илью Муромца, Соловья Разбойника, Василису Прекрасную, и пр.
I'm inclined to cut Rowling some slack here, if only because everyone kinda does it. Not that that excuses it or anything, but it's so familiar and ingrained and constantly reified within Western culture. It's a bit like the Dracula and Nosferatu discussion from a while back: it's so ubiquitous in those (and, to an extent, European vampire lore generally) that sometimes it even requires some effort just to see it. Of course, in the case of Murnau's Nosferatu and probably (?) Stoker's Dracula, it was deliberate--but even then, it's just so familiar. Though I think I said in that thread something to the effect that once you see, you really can't un-see it and you start seeing it like all over the place in that film and text. (Herzog's version, the anti-antisemitic take, kinda magnifies some of this stuff.)
But, yeah, still pretty lazy and particularly egregious given that they're, well, goblins (debased elves in Tolkien), which are a pretty far cry from human.
I always recommend Phillip Pullman's Golden Compass trilogy for young'uns. At times it get a bit overly didactic with all the anti-Catholic stuff, but it's still a really great read.
TheVat
Registered Senior Member
Yep, my children had some folk tale collections and I remember there was one with Baba Yaga stories. And there was one where she tests Vasilisa and helps her out with a bad family situation. Good stuff.
Agreed. Hanlon's Razor strikes again.
Анекдот про Илью Муромца знаете?
Илья Муромец просыпается с большого похмелья, оглядывается вокруг, и видит всё в полной разрухе, Баба Яга торчит в ступе вниз головой, Кощей Безсмертный лежит без сознания, Соловей Разбойник висит на дереве и стонет. Илья Муромец подбегает к Бабе Яге, вытаскивает её из ступы, заботливо оттряхивает, и спрашивает участливо: "кто тебя так, бабушка?!". Баба Яга вздыхая, отвечает:" какой ты Илюшенька добрый... когда трезвый!"
It reminds me a bit of this brief scene from Nathan Fielder's The Rehearsal:
Yeah, this is pretty much how I felt about it. I kept expecting her to maybe subvert it in some fashion--or that maybe she did and I just missed it somehow? Given the thematic content of the series with respect to fascism, I tried imagining some sort of critique of capitalism that I was just overlooking. But then if that were the case, it would become more problematic with the Jews, in the form of their goblin substitutes, being implicated... Well, it wasn't there regardless and ultimately it was just rather disappointing and lazy.
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
Pinball1970
Valued Senior Member
Irish back ground I did not get an alcohol/explosive thing at all. Three of the main white boys are a little cowardly and buffoon like, Drako, Ron and Neville, always messing things up.
foghorn
Valued Senior Member
Yes. Yes, he did. However, I'm not sure of the point you're trying to make...?
???
I love how this guy makes shitposts like this:
based upon shit that never happened (the "George Floyd or slavery" bits had nothing to do with Rowling) and that I neither said nor implied, and then makes yet another idiotic assertion based upon a passage which, again, I never quoted, and then... we're supposed to somehow make sense of shit like that (re: Al Jolson)?!
Of course, when the supposed arbiter of such shit contentious content makes idiotic claims like this:
because, apparently, he is wholly unfamiliar with the concept of dog whistles--and, I guess, even just the concept of metaphors period, for that matter.
This shit's insane.