Ms Rowling: insightful critic of gender policy or myopic [insult]

She doesn't need to say it. It is the most logical and inevitable conclusion to be drawn from what she has said. Not unlike false equivalencies, the claimaint doesn't need to say that two radically disparate matters are comparable--by presenting them within the same context, that is the only reasonable conclusion one can draw.
I very recently learned there's a term for this. It is the Slothful Induction fallacy.

Slothful induction is a logical fallacy where someone rejects a well-supported inductive conclusion despite strong evidence. It's essentially the opposite of hasty generalization, which involves drawing premature conclusions.

1749229554814.png
 
DaveC426913 do you have a link to the detailed descriptions for each item in that cool graphic? Blowfish was one I hadn't heard before, and I wanted to see what that was. Slothful induction is a good term - I've also heard it as "over application of the black swan argument."
 
The problem is Megan's views about this only make sense if you assume that Megan is the main character of reality. If you assume that the moral improvement of bigots is more important than protecting the people they target.
It's worth asking if that could be a fallacy of the excluded middle. I.e. do RW situations only involve moral improvement OR protection? The third option would be moral improvement of a bigot leading to protected future victims. I mean, the people I'm aware of who engage and dialog with bigots have been known to catalyze self awareness and remorse in said bigots, thus forestalling future bad acts.
 
DaveC426913 do you have a link to the detailed descriptions for each item in that cool graphic?
Alas, no. I had to Wiki them.

Blowfish was one I hadn't heard before,
Neither had I. It's the very one that caught my eye.

and I wanted to see what that was.
"The Blowfish Fallacy is a form of red herring fallacy used to distract from important scientific findings by focusing on inconsequential methodological details and exaggerating their importance. It's essentially a misdirection technique, aiming to make the audience focus on minor aspects of a study while ignoring the main conclusions."
- Google AI
 
It's worth asking if that could be a fallacy of the excluded middle. I.e. do RW situations only involve moral improvement OR protection? The third option would be moral improvement of a bigot leading to protected future victims. I mean, the people I'm aware of who engage and dialog with bigots have been known to catalyze self awareness and remorse in said bigots, thus forestalling future bad acts.
Here is the full transcript from Wynn's episode. It works on it's own and the visuals aren't wholly necessary for comprehension, but Wynn puts a lot into her sets and such and her living room setup looks like Sherlock Holmes' living room so it's worth a watch anyway. (She has a philosophy degree and studied piano at Berklee, so she has taste.)

She gets into those scenarios wherein the persons may be amenable to reason. Here though, she was pretty much addressing those who are not--and there's always going to be some bigots no matter what measures we take.

With my example involving ICE agents, I'm certainly sceptical but I suspect that maybe some of those guys might be able to be reasoned with. But in that scenario and in that moment? You're not going to be able to talk them out of doing their job, no matter how corrupt, illegal, immoral it is, so the best course of action would be to disrupt in any and every way which you are capable. Everyone has a line they won't cross, like they don't want to get arrested or beaten or whatever; but regardless, rational discussion there, unless it disrupts, is gonna get absolutely nowhere.
 
I very recently learned there's a term for this. It is the Slothful Induction fallacy.

Slothful induction is a logical fallacy where someone rejects a well-supported inductive conclusion despite strong evidence. It's essentially the opposite of hasty generalization, which involves drawing premature conclusions.
I would imagine that with Megan Phelps-Roper, being as how she was not just in a cult (Westboro Baptist Church), but was actually brought up in a cult, making generalizations generally is a challenge. Even with an abundance of evidence, she is likely extremely (overly so) cautious about drawing firm conclusions about a lot of things.
 
With my example involving ICE agents, I'm certainly sceptical but I suspect that maybe some of those guys might be able to be reasoned with. But in that scenario and in that moment? You're not going to be able to talk them out of doing their job, no matter how corrupt, illegal, immoral it is, so the best course of action would be to disrupt in any and every way which you are capable. Everyone has a line they won't cross, like they don't want to get arrested or beaten or whatever; but regardless, rational discussion there, unless it disrupts, is gonna get absolutely nowhere.
This probably ought to go in The (Foremost) Rapist (Amongst Rapists) 2.0 thread, but it complements what I said above.
-------------------------------------------

The Department of Homeland Security conducted raids on multiple locations across Los Angeles on Friday, clashing with the crowds of people who gathered to protest.

Masked agents were recorded pulling several people out of two LA-area Home Depot stores and the clothing manufacturer Ambient Apparel’s headquarters in LA’s Fashion District. Immigration advocates said the raids also included four other locations, including a doughnut shop. ...

The protest only grew as the afternoon wore on. By 6pm local time, hundreds of people assembled around the federal building in downtown Los Angeles, where those taken into custody during the raids are being held.

Earlier in the day, armed agents clad in heavy protective and tactical gear, including some who wore gas masks, could be seen on video and through aerial footage pushing individuals and trying to corral large groups that congregated to challenge the raids.

Smoke grenades were reportedly thrown near the crowds and pepper spray was used as the federal officers attempted to clear the area. As the demonstrations continued into the evening, videos showed officers firing less-lethal weapons toward protestors.
------------------
There is no "reasoning" with these... people. They wear masks, do not identify themselves, and abduct and disappear people. They're violent, murderous thugs (does anyone seriously doubt that some amongst those disappeared are, in fact, now dead?). And the "courts" ain't doing shit. They should be stopped by any means with which one is comfortable.
 
I very recently learned there's a term for this. It is the Slothful Induction fallacy.

Slothful induction is a logical fallacy where someone rejects a well-supported inductive conclusion despite strong evidence. It's essentially the opposite of hasty generalization, which involves drawing premature conclusions.

View attachment 6845
Totally stealing that diagram.
 
I very recently learned there's a term for this. It is the Slothful Induction fallacy.

Slothful induction is a logical fallacy where someone rejects a well-supported inductive conclusion despite strong evidence. It's essentially the opposite of hasty generalization, which involves drawing premature conclusions.

View attachment 6845
You could draw a common ancestor line for each well known science denying topic.

Creationism -Evolution denier.
Flat earth.
Anti Vax.
Pseudo archaeology.
No Big bang - Creation - Cosmology denier.

That would be a fun game!
 
You could draw a common ancestor line for each well known science denying topic.

Creationism -Evolution denier.
Flat earth.
Anti Vax.
Pseudo archaeology.
No Big bang - Creation - Cosmology denier.

That would be a fun game!

Oh that's covered with the Periodic Table of Irrational Nonsense:

PTOIN-Original.png
 
Earlier in the day, armed agents clad in heavy protective and tactical gear, including some who wore gas masks, could be seen on video and through aerial footage pushing individuals and trying to corral large groups that congregated to challenge the raids.

Smoke grenades were reportedly thrown near the crowds and pepper spray was used as the federal officers attempted to clear the area. As the demonstrations continued into the evening, videos showed officers firing less-lethal weapons toward protestors.
It won't be long before the National Guard fires into protesters and kills four or so protesters. And Trump supporters will defend the National Guard.

History doesn't repeat exactly - but it comes pretty close.
 
Notes

… the idea that society has recently become polarized in some unprecedented way, that we've all become extremists, that, in some sense, we've all become the Westboro Baptist Church.

The problem is Megan's views about this only make sense if you assume that Megan is the main character of reality. If you assume that the moral improvement of bigots is more important than protecting the people they target.

Brief notes:

• Many people in recovery from themselves will try to mitigate the magnitude of what they have done by trying to redistribute their share onto other people.

― The idea, for instance, that everyone is prejudiced and prejudicial in some affecting way, is the sort of thing a recovering neo-Nazi might say along the way to parsing the difference between that general pretense and the particular experiences of his own tale. The pretense↑ that everyone is a bigot, to the other, erases those very differences in order to hide particular behavior in general noise. The difference is pretty significant toward outcomes, and, turns out it comes up along the way.​

• The moral improvement of bigots is always a tricky consideration because, while the pretense is active in discourse, the big complication is that it doesn't make sense to the folks who don't see any need for improvement.

Tabula rasa suggestions of kid-gloving bigots in hopes of convincing them to improve their moral circumstance should be viewed warily, as the blank-slate perspective stands out, especially in well-trod issues, for being so utterly ignorant.​

What is never clear is just how much we need to clear the deck for the moral improvement of bigots. It's as if everyone else needs to not just back off, but disappear, and wait for the bigot to change while sympathizers encourage that it's okay, one hasn't done anything wrong. And if all the immoral, wrong people just shut the fuck up and go away and stay that way for long enough, then the bigot will no longer be a bigot. By that argument↗, bigotry is only solved by being fulfilled, and that's why people should "graciously"↗ give the bigots what they want.

†​

And then: There is also a question these people do not wish to address: As long as you say it with a smile, then it's okay?

Is there a polite way to tell someone they have no civil, human, or constitutional rights?

Is there a polite way to falsely accuse someone of being a groomer? For instance, if I point out that come-lately anti-trans sympathizers are throwing in with actual groomers↗, plenty of those sympathizers might complain regardless of how the line is delivered. But it's ten years later, and vis à vis the people who train up their girls to act more girly because they're training up the boys to expect it, we can only wonder how many people think the real grooming problem is the idea that girls should be who they are. Compared to training her up to be a proper and submissive wife in support of her righteous husband possessor, it seems strange that telling kids to be who they are is what passes for grooming.

Or, wait, let me guess: None of our Rowling supporters or middle-roaders remember that period↱, either.)

But here's the tricky part (not really):

• If we go back and look at the Deutsch cartoon↑, from 2021, that's Matt Waslh doing the "men wearing dresses" bit, but is it transphobic? After all, he says he's got nothing against trans people. But inasmuch as that's a cartoon caricature—

The bearded guy doing the man in a dress line is conservative social media celebrity Matt Walsh, who thinks women should be pregnant at sixteen↱ because something about peak fertility, advocates that his viewers get married before beginning adult life↱ because biological clocks (especially for women) are ticking, and believes arranged marriage↱ is the better way to go.

—there is also reality to provide certain contrast: When you back Rowling, these are your allies. If you cast about for a middle road, this is what you're trying to shield.​

It was almost six years ago↗ when I wasn't quite joking about the British terf wars landing in my socmed feed—

What stands out most is the idea that this so-called radicalism is apparently really popular feminism in Her Majesty's dominion, and it's only when I look at the proverbial everything else that goes on in this period that it really does make sense: There is a reason why such feminism should be popular among the British, as it strives to help women achieve their proper place and potential under a man. Of course British radicalism aims to serve traditional power.

—but this time later the anti-trans argument has only managed to reinforce the point, over and over, both in general and particular. That is, it's not just the British version; one of the reasons it seemed easy enough to see coming is that it simply isn't new.

Indeed, neither is the part where we start at the question of supremacist sympathies contributing to the election of supremacists, and end up at doubting supremacism (e.g., #434↑, "But are these transphobic?"); while the effort to dilute the word "bigot" seemed something of an outlier for being unusually direct and pointed, the more general idea that we might avoid the infamy of supremacism by doubting the boundaries of supremacism is predictable near to axiomatic.

But the point remains: This anti-trans pretense is a segregationist human rights argument dependent on segregationist presupposition. And if the standard is to just say it with a smile↗, all polite-like↗, one must smile like their face aches in order to pretend discriminatory stratification, exclusion, and diminution of fellow human beings for the sake of superstition is in any way polite.

And that's the thing about the idea that "we've all become the Westboro Baptist Church": Is that intended to raise Westboro's status, or drag everyone else down? One way to look at it is the threshold of telling someone to fuck off, or some similar retort. Think of it, to the one, disrupting funerals, or even baselessly accusing people of crimes against children; to the other, telling them to fuck off just isn't, y'know, polite enough. To whom are these equivalent in what way, because aside from saying it with a smile, it remains unclear what about discrimination, segregation, and superstitious infliction against human rights we're supposed to pretend is polite.

But is it really transphobic? Yes. And supremacist. And misogynist. And bigoted. And traditionalist.¹ What remains mysterious are the boundaries of the apparently undying politeness the objects of such prejudice owe the people who would harm them.

Maybe there's a reason some people would rather pass over that part.
____________________

Notes:

¹ And, as feminists remind↑, misandrist. We can't leave that part out, but it's also self-inflicted in a way that both misogyny in particular and traditionalism in general seem to depend on.​

Anti-Defamation League. "What is 'Grooming?' The Truth Behind the Dangerous, Bigoted Lie Targeting the LGBTQ+ Community". 16 September 2022. ADL.org. 7 June 2025. https://www.adl.org/resources/artic...ngerous-bigoted-lie-targeting-lgbtq-community
 
Notes

Brief notes:

• Many people in recovery from themselves will try to mitigate the magnitude of what they have done by trying to redistribute their share onto other people.​
― The idea, for instance, that everyone is prejudiced and prejudicial in some affecting way, is the sort of thing a recovering neo-Nazi might say along the way to parsing the difference between that general pretense and the particular experiences of his own tale. The pretense↑ that everyone is a bigot, to the other, erases those very differences in order to hide particular behavior in general noise. The difference is pretty significant toward outcomes, and, turns out it comes up along the way.​

• The moral improvement of bigots is always a tricky consideration because, while the pretense is active in discourse, the big complication is that it doesn't make sense to the folks who don't see any need for improvement.​
Tabula rasa suggestions of kid-gloving bigots in hopes of convincing them to improve their moral circumstance should be viewed warily, as the blank-slate perspective stands out, especially in well-trod issues, for being so utterly ignorant.​


What is never clear is just how much we need to clear the deck for the moral improvement of bigots. It's as if everyone else needs to not just back off, but disappear, and wait for the bigot to change while sympathizers encourage that it's okay, one hasn't done anything wrong. And if all the immoral, wrong people just shut the fuck up and go away and stay that way for long enough, then the bigot will no longer be a bigot. By that argument↗, bigotry is only solved by being fulfilled, and that's why people should "graciously"↗ give the bigots what they want.
Wow. This stuff is way out there in crazy town. Tiassa has become more and more radicalised over the years. Too much time alone, maybe? Who knows?

Essentially, Tiassa is claiming here that a bigot is a bigot is a bigot. Once a bigot, always a bigot. A bigot might give the false impression of being reformed, or changing his mind, but it's never real. It's all excuses and a smokescreen for the bigot to continue being a closet bigot.

Moreover, anybody who tries to talk to a bigot is just engaged in play-acting of a kind. They have a "pretense in discourse" that just doesn't make sense, because a bigot is a bigot is a bigot.

Then there's the fantasy that a bigot's actions and opinions are, for some reason, ignored in trying to dissuade a bigot of his bigotry.

Froot loop town.

And all this just so that Tiassa can be confident in his prejudicial labelling of Megan Phelps-Roper remaining a bigot, without knowing anything about her journey out of the Westboro Baptist Church.

And Phelps-Roper has to be a bigot, because Tiassa has decided that JK Rowling has to be a bigot, without knowing anything much about what Rowling actually thinks or says.

As far as Tiassa is concerned, more and more people are becoming "supremacists" every day. Soon, Tiassa will be the only non-supremacist left in the world. Everybody else is a bigot. And a bigot is a bigot is a bigot. Tiassa can only wail about the injustice of it all and about the "pretense in discourse" that pretends that there are non-bigots other than Tiassa.
 
Last edited:
Draco is a bigot too it seems.


Are they just fucking with us? I mean are we expected to believe the evil JK has risen up? After hints, whispers before finally revealing herself? We have the heroic trio of Potter, Ron and Hermione leading the charge against her and we all knew that snotty coward Draco was in her corner all along.

I could make a film out of that. I would like a cameo, play the Irish one who tries to make alcohol and blow shit up.
 
The joy of ignore ....

And yet, you continue to pay attention.

Is the problem is you just lack the courage to address the question?

So let's try again: Is there a polite way to tell someone they have no civil, human, or constitutional rights?

It's a yes or no question. The problem can't be that you're not smart enough to understand. Like I said, maybe there's a reason some people would rather pass over that part.
 
Tiassa,

I see you suggested that we all forgot about grooming, as a brush used to tar LGBTQ people. No one forgot. For most posters, time is limited for forum chats. Failure to opine on an issue doesn't imply anything, it's not some sort of insidious void you can read intentions into.

And, to add some personal experience here: after posting a yard sign for a Democrat candidate for governor back in the first Turnip administration, a conservative neighbor went so far as to imply that I was grooming her children. Apparently it was okay for them to barge into our house whenever they felt like it, but me (a straight male obviously quite enamored of my wife) offering one of them a chess lesson (after they begged me to show them how to play) was a sign of being...what, pedo adjacent? It's hard to express how toxic the MAGA brain virus really is, in some people. Starts with stupidity, evolves into bigotry, culminates in malice and slander.
 
Back
Top