COVID-19 Source: Will we ever know?

[Jake Arave]

The issue of where this virus started and how it made it's way into the human population appears to be gaining importance to the many governments around the world wishing to understand why their losses both in human and economic have occurred and more importantly how to prevent this sort of pandemic from happening again.

The general population also wish to know and no doubt over the coming months and years many investigations will ensue.
Lead contender at the moment is:

• A wet market in Wuhan China. ( November, December - 2019)

There is reason, I believe, that this may not be the case so I ask:

Will we every really know where this terrible pandemic had it's source?

View attachment 3357

Care to discuss?

I couldn't be bothered to read the 10 pages of response to this, so please forgive me if this has already been discussed.
There are a few very good reasons to believe that this is a spillover event and not something related to human tampering/engineering. The particular mechanism with which the virus latches on to host cells is different (and with a higher affinity) than lab model reconstructions of SARS-CoV morphology. It has a higher affinity to ace2 receptors than our closest predictions based on other SARS-CoV like viruses. TL;DR or a lay explanation would be that the virus is simply too complex and beyond our research into other SARS-like diseases for it to be the result of human tampering. The questions as to whether or not the outbreak originated from mishandling of a naturally occurring virus in a lab remains unanswered. I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that one.

 

[Q-reeus]

...Maybe, just maybe, batshit crazy really is just plain old batshit crazy.

And maybe resorting to that kind of language and tactics is plain stupid.

And there is more than enough evidence that Russia and Putin interfered in the election as they have done so previously and in other countries as well. But that's irrelevant to this thread and subject matter.

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention-foreign-elections-20161213-story.html
Yours and other's disgraceful ongoing whitewash of Operation Northwoods alone makes it clear to me you lot exist in a strange headspace. Impossible to reason with objectively.

Despite your repeated 'batshit crazy' put-downs, on balance the case for SARS-CoV-2 being a lab modified virus, with a unique capacity to create massive global economic and social upheaval, is quite strong imo:
https://regenerationinternational.org/2020/04/30/murder-most-foul-the-perps-behind-covid-19/

 

[RainbowSingularity]

my antagonists

you have groupies ?

ongoing whitewash of Operation Northwoods

i dont know these type of things but i would assume, based on the thousands of years of human war history,
that there would be continual modelling of different scenarios to test their capacity to deal with them.
how do police counter scammers ?
how do banks counter scammers ?
by learning how to scam themselves and then attempting to stay one step ahead

how many movies are there of some person or group gaming some person to act out as some semi false flag and then flip them to be patsy
its a common script writers complex type to interest the audience
spy novels
movie scripts
dozens of best selling books & authors
big block buster movies

you can see similar things being falsified about celebrity's in celebrity magazines
making up different types of lifes to capture the imagination of readers
added with pictures

the idea that the common person is simply to plain and ordinary and not interested in complex entertainment concepts is simply wrong
thus feeding some half wit some semi disjointed power trip blame concept to why they cant be king of the world is not a huge leap(conspiracy theory entertainment)

you have to provide more than just knee jerk innuendo.

with a unique capacity to create massive global economic and social upheaval

you pull right up beside it, almost gas light it then swing off to your
"everybody must agree to an emotion" nonsense

how does SARs have a unique capacity outside that of a highly lethal pandemic risk ?
your talking about a completely separate factor added to it
as if there is no inherent impact of a global pandemic

were you watching the global financial scene & global response as Ebola & bird Flu & pig flu came out ?
people were bracing for financial Armageddon but they were not making TV shows about it trying to be a celebrity.
they were sending AID and specialist doctors and teams to the front line to try and prevent it.


there were teams of doctors and specialists busting their asses to work to fight it
but none of them were trying to play "im a celebrity get me out of here"

now something has gotten past the gate and everyone can see the real impact and cost of not reacting swiftly.
trying to pretend its all a conspiracy and not really a pandemic does not make the pandemic go away
thats just attempting to create another conspiracy to cover up those who didn't do what those before them were doing to help protect the people and the economy

you think the game within the game within the game can not be seen ?

so you see when you pedal so hard to infer that leadership cant be blamed because its not the leaders running the show
then you become part of the same culpability process as the conspiracy your attempting to create discussion about.
you need to post some facts and simple stuff

the us air craft carrier that got an outbreak of Covid_19 is a good example of the ground work where big conspiracy's are created
many different things going on
many different people doing different things, living their life trying to do their thing
and wham... you suddenly have a large impact that the tin foil hat brigade will gas-light the shit out of to try and create followers with iconography.

people do not follow simple logic
and attempting to fashion some type of cohesive hidden agenda from superficial events may have absolutely nothing to do with the things that created it.

is the purpose of the conspiracy idea to find a better way to save lifes, help people and help people learn to be better ?
no
its self indulgent entertainment mostly.
so keep in mind your posting on a science web site, so expect to be scientifically critiqued on things.

post some simple to follow factual stuff and outline your point in a thread
if you want to.

 

[Quantum Quack]

 

[RainbowSingularity]

i dont like your profiling
it lacks depth of colour


UK news
radicals(extremist anti society people self labeling as free thinkers when they are conspiracy groupy bully boys) gathering in isolated public locations to intimidate children & other people

https://www.edinburghnews.scotsman....meadows-after-targeting-teenage-girls-2942033

The youngsters – aged just 14 and 15 – were subjected to a torrent of negative comments before they were told that wearing a face mask was “akin to wearing a swastika”, the emblem of Nazi Germany.

Edinburgh City Council has now instructed park rangers to boot them out of the Meadows if they show up again and MSPs have also called for the group, called Edinburgh Resistance 2020, to be reported to the police.

The group has been seen several times on the Meadows with stalls displaying posters and flyers encouraging people not to wear masks or adhere to lockdown restrictions, and suggesting the Covid-19 pandemic is a fabrication of the government and media organisations.

The girls who were targeted last Saturday said they felt “threatened” by the 25 to 30 adults despite telling them they were under 18.

“Two people approached us and began verbally harassing us, saying that we were slaves to fear and telling us that we were like the Hitler Youth for wearing masks and that wearing a mask was akin to wearing a swastika or doing the Hitler salute,” they said.

it plays well into the early stages of WWII when the usa did not intervene to help prevent the nazi death camps exterminating jews, gypsies & disabled people
the type of brain washing or desire to adhere to fringe insular concepts that are purely self affirming in a negative intellectual concept seem to be quite parallel

this type of cultural social engineering is a cancer on modern society and is being escalated & promoted by hyper nationalism
it plays well into human fears placing a concept of fascism toward blood lust of material actuation over the encompassing ideology of collective protection as a right to freedom of expression
but they probably stopped learning before they left high school so its hard to have an intelligent & logical conversation with them

humans have mental illnesses
groups of humans have social(cultured) mental illnesses
this type of radicalism is effectively a mental illness of a human social condition
a psychological stampede that self validates that which it runs over and kills while reinforcing its self by acknowledging the running as a form of survivalism even though the act its self of the stampede is illogical and has no benefit and only risks.
but the damaged injured human mind sees this as logical and somewhat normalised by a need to manifest its self in a physical representation of material values.
shouting hitting breaking things

they think they are being free and acting independently and knowingly
when in reality they are undermining their own intellect
no different to a schizophrenic patient deliberately injuring them self

posting this reminds me of a Doctor of psychology whom was the head of a university psychology department with whom i would on occasion chat with.
endearing chap

 

[Bells]

And maybe resorting to that kind of language and tactics is plain stupid.

Coming from the person who just went through the list of conspiracies one might find from the far right wingnuts, you'll excuse me if I don't take your opinion of my referring to her as batshit crazy seriously.

https://www.latimes.com/nation/la-na-us-intervention-foreign-elections-20161213-story.html
Yours and other's disgraceful ongoing whitewash of Operation Northwoods alone makes it clear to me you lot exist in a strange headspace. Impossible to reason with objectively.

Check the thread title. Is it about Operation Northwoods or "false flag" operations or new world order woo? No, no it is not.

It is about COVID19 and whether we will ever know how it entered the human population.

I mean, it's not rocket science...

You do understand that you are so far off topic, yes? And that not only are you posting some crazy stupid stuff, but you have also belly flopped into bigoted meme territory.

You may think that I am impossible to reason with objectively because I'm not buying into the utter rubbish you are peddling. And you know what? That's 'a okay!' I'm good with that.

Normally I would say 'you be you' and 'rock on!'..

But what you are peddling is dangerous, hateful and completely ridiculous.

Despite your repeated 'batshit crazy' put-downs, on balance the case for SARS-CoV-2 being a lab modified virus, with a unique capacity to create massive global economic and social upheaval, is quite strong imo:
https://regenerationinternational.org/2020/04/30/murder-most-foul-the-perps-behind-covid-19/

This link is a prime example..

To the one, the article starts off with a quote from a lawyer who refers to Israel as "Jewistan", and then delves into this bizarre anti-vaxxer rant and downright and absolute lies. For example, from your link:

"In January 2020, a renowned Chinese scientist, Li Ning, was sentenced to 12 years in prison for selling experimental animals to local markets."​

Li Ning was actually arrested and sent to prison after being found guilty of stealing millions of dollars in research funding.

It then lists accidents in labs and alludes to deliberate acts and biowarfare.

And the author does this deliberately.

You have not presented any case that it was a lab modified virus.

On the contrary, you have instead presented a case as to why you should not be believed in this thread because what you have linked has pretty much fallen into woo territory, not to mention anti-vaxxer woo.

It is not acceptable. We take a very, VERY, dim view of this kind of thing, particularly when people spout conspiracy theories that literally endanger the lives of others.

 

[Q-reeus]

Coming from the person who just went through the list of conspiracies one might find from the far right wingnuts, you'll excuse me if I don't take your opinion of my referring to her as batshit crazy seriously.


Check the thread title. Is it about Operation Northwoods or "false flag" operations or new world order woo? No, no it is not.

It is about COVID19 and whether we will ever know how it entered the human population.

I mean, it's not rocket science...

You do understand that you are so far off topic, yes? And that not only are you posting some crazy stupid stuff, but you have also belly flopped into bigoted meme territory.

You may think that I am impossible to reason with objectively because I'm not buying into the utter rubbish you are peddling. And you know what? That's 'a okay!' I'm good with that.

Normally I would say 'you be you' and 'rock on!'..

But what you are peddling is dangerous, hateful and completely ridiculous.


This link is a prime example..

To the one, the article starts off with a quote from a lawyer who refers to Israel as "Jewistan", and then delves into this bizarre anti-vaxxer rant and downright and absolute lies. For example, from your link:

"In January 2020, a renowned Chinese scientist, Li Ning, was sentenced to 12 years in prison for selling experimental animals to local markets."​

Li Ning was actually arrested and sent to prison after being found guilty of stealing millions of dollars in research funding.

It then lists accidents in labs and alludes to deliberate acts and biowarfare.

And the author does this deliberately.

You have not presented any case that it was a lab modified virus.

On the contrary, you have instead presented a case as to why you should not be believed in this thread because what you have linked has pretty much fallen into woo territory, not to mention anti-vaxxer woo.

It is not acceptable. We take a very, VERY, dim view of this kind of thing, particularly when people spout conspiracy theories that literally endanger the lives of others.

What is by now the expected rabid reaction from bells. Referring to https://regenerationinternational.org/2020/04/30/murder-most-foul-the-perps-behind-covid-19/
You make a song and a dance out of one evident mistake re grounds for Li Ning's prosecution, yet it is reported in other articles he was indeed found guilty of selling lab animals to wet markets. Meanwhile, completely ignoring a far more important passage that undermines the for now consensus position only natural mutation could have been involved:

"A widely-cited paper, published in the journal Nature on February 3, 2020, claims to establish that SARS-CoV-2 is a coronavirus of bat origin that naturally jumped the species barrier between bats and humans and was not synthetically constructed in a lab. However, as Mercola.com reports one of the Chinese authors of this article, Dr. Shi Zhengli from the Wuhan Virology Lab, actually worked previously on weaponizing the SARS virus (the progenitor of COVID-19) and has published peer-reviewed articles on the procedures involved in this genetic manipulation.

Another oft-cited but problematic article in Nature Medicine (March 17, 2020), co-authored by a bio-entrepreneur industry scientist, has been repeatedly cited by the mass media as offering “proof” that the COVID-19 virus arose “naturally” as opposed to being lab-derived.

But recent critiques offered by independent scientists, including the London-based molecular geneticist Dr. Michael Antoniou, a long-time critic of genetic engineering, argue convincingly that the computer-modeling “proof” cited by Nature Medicine offers no proof at all. As GM Watch reports:

“Dr. Antoniou told us that while the authors [of the March 17 Nature Medicine article] did indeed show that SARS-CoV-2 was unlikely to have been built by deliberate genetic engineering from a previously used virus backbone, that’s not the only way of constructing a virus. There is another method by which an enhanced-infectivity virus can be engineered in the lab. . .”

Antoniou told GM Watch that this method, called “directed iterative evolutionary selection process,” involves using genetic engineering to generate “a large number of randomly mutated versions of the SARS-CoV spike protein receptor,” and then to select those protein receptors most effective at infecting human cells.

As Antoniou points out, the inventors of this technique received the Nobel Prize for chemistry in 2018, a fact the authors of the Nature Medicine article surely knew. Did the authors of the Nature Medicine article deliberately leave this more plausible hypothesis out, in order to bolster their questionable thesis that COVID-19 arose naturally—even though biowarfare labs in Wuhan were engineering bat viruses years before the fatal outbreak?"

It's not me that should feel ashamed here - but Leftist establishment hacks like you.

 

[billvon]

“Dr. Antoniou told us that while the authors [of the March 17 Nature Medicine article] did indeed show that SARS-CoV-2 was unlikely to have been built by deliberate genetic engineering from a previously used virus backbone, that’s not the only way of constructing a virus. There is another method by which an enhanced-infectivity virus can be engineered in the lab. . .”

True! You could take million of bats, inject them all with standard SARS viruses, wait until one of them mutated into something more deadly - then hope someone at a wet market bought a raw bat and ate it, or bought a pangolin that had been bitten by a bat and then eaten it! You could call it "directed iterative evolutionary selection process” where a large number of mutated SARS viruses are selected by nature for the most virulent strain, with only the most virulent able to jump the species gap!

That's the only possible explanation. It was Fauci all along!

 

[Q-reeus]

True! You could take million of bats, inject them all with standard SARS viruses, wait until one of them mutated into something more deadly - then hope someone at a wet market bought a raw bat and ate it, or bought a pangolin that had been bitten by a bat and then eaten it! You could call it "directed iterative evolutionary selection process” where a large number of mutated SARS viruses are selected by nature for the most virulent strain, with only the most virulent able to jump the species gap!

That's the only possible explanation. It was Fauci all along!

A ridiculous distortion of what is actually involved in that passage I reproduced. A link therein directs to a Wikipedia article explaining how natural selection is vastly sped up and carefully targeted in the lab. Have you no sense of shame?

 

[billvon]

A ridiculous distortion of what is actually involved in that passage I reproduced.

It is indeed ridiculous - but not because of anything I added to it.

A link therein directs to a Wikipedia article explaining how natural selection is vastly sped up and carefully targeted in the lab.

Or in nature. Do you know how to vastly speed up natural selection? Drastically change a species' environment. Like, say, warm the climate a lot.

That explains it! Big Oil, in cahoots with Fauci, Trump and Al Gore, caused COVID-19!

 

[Q-reeus]

It is indeed ridiculous - but not because of anything I added to it.
Or in nature. Do you know how to vastly speed up natural selection? Drastically change a species' environment. Like, say, warm the climate a lot.

That explains it! Big Oil, in cahoots with Fauci, Trump and Al Gore, caused COVID-19!

It's kind of funny in a sad way. You introduce Big Oil, Climate Change(TM) etc. but for sure bells will take no umbrage with that unlike my reference to Op Northwoods - which was never meant to take on a life of it's own here.

 

[billvon]

It's kind of funny in a sad way. You introduce Big Oil, Climate Change(TM) etc.

Do you understand the rhetorical technique known as "sarcasm?" (Hint - I don't really think Big Oil and Al Gore conspired to cause COVID-19.)

 

[Q-reeus]

Do you understand the rhetorical technique known as "sarcasm?" (Hint - I don't really think Big Oil and Al Gore conspired to cause COVID-19.)

Such sarcasm of the reductio ad absurdum kind is self-defeating.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Dr. Shi Zhengli

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shi_Zhengli#Career

During the COVID-19 pandemic, Shi and other Institute scientists formed an expert group to research Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2).[16][17] In February 2020, researchers led by Shi Zhengli published an article in Nature titled, "A pneumonia outbreak associated with a new coronavirus of probable bat origin", finding that SARS-CoV-2 is in the same family as SARS, and that it has 96.2% genome overlap with the most closely related known coronavirus.[18] In February 2020, her team published a paper in Cell Research showing that remdesivir and chloroquine inhibited the virus
>>>>> in vitro,<<<<< and applied for a patent for the drug in China on behalf of the WIV.[19][20][21] The granting of this patent by China raised concerns about intellectual property rights in an international context.[22] Shi co-authored a paper labelling the virus as the first Disease X.[23]

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Dr. Michael Antoniou

my universal translator is malfunctioning so i cant pick up what the documentary author is saying
the professors views are quite clear

Antoniou told GM Watch that this method, called “directed iterative evolutionary selection process,” involves using genetic engineering to generate “a large number of randomly mutated versions of the SARS-CoV spike protein receptor,”

"selective engineering" ?
to create a GE version of something that potentially has a natural Evolutionary process via a random mutation
he gives it a nudge & a wink, but he clearly states that it is indistinguishable so there is no definitive proof
a bit of a Bermuda triangle or ufo

most of it is above my comprehension

apples with apples
mutation probability of virology historic

probability has been defined by many virology people for several decades

if you added the human error factor to the time line it would vastly increase the risks with existing things in labs what ever they are
even IF they are GE their accidental release wont mitigate the actions required to combat the global spread.
at the risk of making a thread killer tone
the professor clearly states it is impossible to absolutely define it as being manipulated

 

[Bells]

What is by now the expected rabid reaction from bells. Referring to https://regenerationinternational.org/2020/04/30/murder-most-foul-the-perps-behind-covid-19/
You make a song and a dance out of one evident mistake re grounds for Li Ning's prosecution, yet it is reported in other articles he was indeed found guilty of selling lab animals to wet markets.

It wasn't a mistake.

It was a blatant lie.

The article went all over the place, for one, the author lied to set up conspiracies. By the end, he had multiple conspiracies and was desperately trying to weave it all into a COVID conspiracy.

How you can take that seriously is baffling. How you can post such absolute rubbish as evidence or further proof of a conspiracy regarding COVID19 beggars belief.

Meanwhile, completely ignoring a far more important passage that undermines the for now consensus position only natural mutation could have been involved:

[snip]

Yes, I read it and it was, how can I put it mildly... utter shite.

To the one, your previous link to the Mercola article was roundly laughed out of the room and with good reason.

To the other, one has to query whether you're just going for headlines or if you can actually post this shit with a straight face.. Did you actually read the study he linked and about "Dr. Shi Zhengli from the Wuhan Virology Lab" and who he claimed was - from your link:

actually worked previously on weaponizing the SARS virus (the progenitor of COVID-19) and has published peer-reviewed articles on the procedures involved in this genetic manipulation.

[...]

Peer-reviewed, published articles, going back more than a decade, indicate that researchers at the Wuhan Labs (Dr. Shi Zhengli and others) have been carrying out experiments to manipulate and weaponize deadly bat coronavirus so that they can readily infect human cells. In a 2008 article in the Journal of Virology, Zengli and other scientists report on how they have genetically engineered SARS-like viruses from horseshoe bats to enable the viruses to gain entry into human cells.​

Did you read what he linked a couple of paragraphs down the part you said I had ignored? You know the so called "important part" where he brings up Dr Zhengli in the part you quoted and whined about my ignoring, where the author accuses her of weaponising it or working to weaponise it? At all?

Of all the dishonest hacks one could post to misrepresent something, that article you linked was a prime example.

Here is what the article you linked said of the study in question:

Peer-reviewed, published articles, going back more than a decade, indicate that researchers at the Wuhan Labs (Dr. Shi Zhengli and others) have been carrying out experiments to manipulate and weaponize deadly bat coronavirus so that they can readily infect human cells. In a 2008 article in the Journal of Virology, Zengli and other scientists report on how they have genetically engineered SARS-like viruses from horseshoe bats to enable the viruses to gain entry into human cells.​

The study in question, which he happily links, was a study on how these viruses can jump species and what they found was that it can jump species, even from bats directly to humans in some instances and their study was to show just how easily it can happen in nature.. In other words, the author misrepresented that study as though they were weaponising it, when the study itself was doing the complete opposite.

The fact the author literally misrepresents others and basically outs his own article as a hack piece escaped you? Here is what you quoted from that article. I have highlighted the direct contradiction and misrepresentation:

“Dr. Antoniou told us that while the authors [of the March 17 Nature Medicine article] did indeed show that SARS-CoV-2 was unlikely to have been built by deliberate genetic engineering from a previously used virus backbone, that’s not the only way of constructing a virus. There is another method by which an enhanced-infectivity virus can be engineered in the lab. . .”

Antoniou told GM Watch that this method, called “directed iterative evolutionary selection process,” involves using genetic engineering to generate “a large number of randomly mutated versions of the SARS-CoV spike protein receptor,” and then to select those protein receptors most effective at infecting human cells.

As Antoniou points out, the inventors of this technique received the Nobel Prize for chemistry in 2018, a fact the authors of the Nature Medicine article surely knew. Did the authors of the Nature Medicine article deliberately leave this more plausible hypothesis out, in order to bolster their questionable thesis that COVID-19 arose naturally—even though biowarfare labs in Wuhan were engineering bat viruses years before the fatal outbreak?"​

He, and by linking it and arguing for it, you, used a comment by Dr Antoniou about how viruses can be engineered, but that he agreed that the article in Nature did indeed show that COVID19 was unlikely to have been engineered, the author then misrepresents Dr Antoniou's words and comments into something directly opposite to what Dr Antoniou had actually argued..

The author of the article you linked is a dishonest hack and your repeated use of his article is shameful and frankly despicable. Frankly, the scientists he is msirepresenting should sue his arse. But then, people like you would probably think they were all part of the global conspiracy to establish a new world order.

It's not me that should feel ashamed here - but Leftist establishment hacks like you.

Coming from you - who has been linking and relying on absolute lies to try to make an argument, and who has elevated bigoted stereotypes about Jews among others, of course you have no shame. Because people like you are incapable of understanding what shame actually is.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

shame

narcissists project shame as a weapon of control
i have seen it many times in varying forms as a weapon

Recently i have been studying it by observation and direct involvement(not by choice more by opportunity)
quite fascinating
very feral and quite dangerous
no surprise the majority of women killers are male narcissists(possibly the biggest group of homicidal people[domestic battery homicide & stalking])

shame is an evil tool mostly used by organized religion to subjugate people by installing childhood indoctrinated phobias and mental illnesses
quite repulsive
(i digress)
not to be confused with social etiquette moral code & lack of empathy (a different meaning of the word shame)

 

[Q-reeus]

...He, and by linking it and arguing for it, you, used a comment by Dr Antoniou about how viruses can be engineered, but that he agreed that the article in Nature did indeed show that COVID19 was unlikely to have been engineered, the author then misrepresents Dr Antoniou's words and comments into something directly opposite to what Dr Antoniou had actually argued...

Shameless chutzpah. That bit of creative editing tries but miserably fails to invert the meaning of the passage I quoted in #207. Give it a rest.

 

[Bells]

Shameless chutzpah. That bit of creative editing tries but miserably fails to invert the meaning of the passage I quoted in #207. Give it a rest.

You posted crap that was full of lies and misrepresentations and then you had the cheek to whine that I didn't address it..

Nothing was inverted. The author of the article you keep plugging is a downright liar, who deliberately misrepresented studies for his conspiracy theory and you have spent a few pages now plugging those conspiracies.

Then again, what else can we expect from right wingers who buy into rubbish conspiracies. Maybe you should head out back and start digging your bunker and start stocking up on canned goods.

 

[paddoboy]