London riots: Violence erupts for third day

[wsionynw]

The government have dragged their heels on this big time. Where the fuck are the army? The police are out there with sticks and dustbin lids.

The looters think Christmas has come early, and they're right!

 

[Bells]

Do you not get that those police who go around brutalizing black men - they're enabled to do that in order to "protect" other segments of society?

Specifically, the segments who inhabit the rich, distant parts of town where you'd rarely see a black man on the streets at all?

That the maintenance of privileged, segregated enclaves, via this brutal civic double-standard, is exactly what was so infuriating about the Rodney King attack? The brutal nature of the beating was spectacular, sure - but the riot-inducing impact was the fact that this wasn't a matter of a few bad apples. It was a display of the systemic cruelty employed to keep Beverly Hills Beverly Hills, and Compton Compton.

All of society is responsible for enabling actions such as that like against King and against Jean Charles de Menezes to this latest shooting in London.

And I think rioting and beating and killing people is counter-productive and will only ensure that such brutality and treatment by the State will continue into the future. It provides those who wish to maintain that class and racial line with an excuse.. You can see it here in this thread already.

This sort of violence further enables the police to be brutal now and in the future..

Do you understand where I am coming from now?

Class was (and is) important as well, in both instances.

So you should say there is nothing to be proud of in using police brutality to keep the proles in line. Which would be to say that the safe existence of Beverly Hills is an affront - an overt expression of exactly such pride.

I think any violence and brutality is inherently bad. No good can come of in the long term. And it never does. When angry mobs attack innocent civilians, it further enables brutality against them in the future..

It further enables the stereotype.

While the existence of Beverly Hills is unpaletable and obscene, when one looks at the poverty and racism surrounding it, dragging a man from a truck and smashing is head in with a brick solely because he is white is just as obscene as King's beating. That was not revenge. It only further enabled the State to brutalise blacks some more.

In a sense, I suppose - but you'd be aligned with the masses and not with the pigs and bourgeoisie. There's also the matter of supporting a one-off push-back against the social order, vs. supporting the ongoing, systemic abuse to maintain it.

What you are saying could be construed as saying that the black men who saved Reginald Denny and Fidel Lopez for example, were also aligning themselves with the pigs and the bourgeoisie because they were not supporting the actions of the masses. Were they supporting the maintaining of the abuse in stepping forward to stop the violence against those being attacked based solely on colour? Was George Holliday, a white man, suddenly more aligned with the opporessed because he not only filmed it, but then released it to the media?

Which is why I found Gustav's comments surprising. He was not proud of the actions of the victimised who came out and acted against the rioters, he was proud that the riot's themselves happened... In other words, he was proud of the anarchy.. An anarchy which gave further justification for further brutality from the State and that did end up happening.. And continues to this day. By saying they were dumb because they didn't go and attack Beverly Hills further perpetuates the racist ideology as well.. as though to say 'dumb black people.. when they finally rise up, they can't even get that right'.. I found his argument racist as well as mildly insane.

Yeah, that's what happens when social order breaks down. It's not supposed to be pretty, or fun for anyone. The relevant political point remains that an improved social contract is required, if people want their order back.

Fat chance of that happening now.

The police will now become more brutal and the ideology against the rioters more racist.

The actions of those children in going hell for leather for what they could grab and then gleefully tell the media that it was all a bit of fun has not done the cause for equality any favours.

The authoritarian streak is noted - right down to the literal infantilization of the rioters.

But the youthful character of the rioters shouldn't surprise - they have that much less stake in social order, not generally being property owners or otherwise invested in bourgeoise institutions.

The majority of the rioters and looters are teenagers and children.

As for my authoritarian streak.. I guess so. I spent the better part of my childhood in abject poverty and living under a system of social apartheid, where I was asked to step aside if a white person wanted to buy something in a shop, because I of my colour. I saw my father, unemployed because there was simply no work, nearly kill himself daily trying to plant vegetables and tender a stupidly large plot of land, next to the broken down wooden house that eventually blew down in a cyclone with us in it, so that we would actually be able to have one decent meal a day.. Beef was only on very special occasions... Then we managed to migrate to Australia and I saw my parents work 3-4 jobs each, dragging me along with them afterschool because they would not get home until midnight and I was too little to be left alone, just so they could save up to buy a small house.. the cheapest they could afford.. I still remember my mother packing my lunch for school and then my dinner, which I would eat in the canteen of whatever office building she was cleaning at that time.. and then falling asleep on the hard plastic chairs until they were finished and we could go home. That was my childhood.

My parents spoke often of their very human condition and the social order. They were angry. But they never reacted violently. They instead told me to 'show them' and get an education and work for what I have.. In other words, I was taught to not give in to the stereotype.

So when I see little snots reacting like they are in London at present, because they can't afford to have 'nice stuff', yes, it angers me. When we came to Australia, my parents went to the Salvation Army store to buy what we needed .. They bought these plates that were 2cents each. They kept those plates as a reminder of where we came from. I eat off those plates every day and so do my children. As a reminder to not give in to the stereotype perpetrated by society against 'my class' and my colour and to instead show them that I can do better than the racists can. And that is why when I look at the London riots at present, it does anger me. Destroying their neighbours homes, robbing their neighbours. All they have done is further perpetuate the already biased opinions against the poor and the non-whites. Look at this thread as a perfect example.

The message they send is solely of personal monetary gain. If they wanted to send a message, they would have gone for Government buildings and institutions, not their equally poor neighbours who are also trying to make ends meet and engorging themselves on expensive goods for fun.

 

[chimpkin]

I spent the better part of my childhood in abject poverty and living under a system of social apartheid, where I was asked to step aside if a white person wanted to buy something in a shop, because I of my colour.

Yeah, that's disgusting to do to anybody.

Thank you Bells... even though the United States needs a hella lot of fixing these days, sometimes it's good to remember we don't totally suck.

(America, f*ck yeah!)

My thoughts?
Television teaches people stuff=happiness. Through the constant stream of adverts.

When society then withdraws any reasonable, legal means of getting what people have been told happiness is...

They kind of get explody about it.

Social Psychology term for this: relative deprivation.

 

[Gustav]

Which is why I found Gustav's comments surprising. He was not proud of the actions of the victimised who came out and acted against the rioters, he was proud that the riot's themselves happened... In other words, he was proud of the anarchy..

that sentiment is somewhat exaggerated but lets just go with the flow.
yes i am proud that the oppressed said enough is enough. yes i am proud that the shopkeepers shot vandals, yes i am proud that law and order was restored. yes i am proud that reforms were attempted

all had a part to play. the cops who beat king, the guy with the video, the rednecks in simi.........i applaud all of them. i mean, all this drama is really unnecessary but it seems that is what we want, that is what it takes so... why not kick back and enjoy the show? its all in the name of progress, y'know

if rioting is what it takes, i have no problem with it. it is a means to an end. the masses will not passively tolerate your tyranny. it is time you guys understand this. why wait for us to come and burn shit down?

Those of us who have been around before and since the national explosion in 1980/81, and again in 1985 in Broadwater Farm, know full well the lessons had not been learned. After the 1981 riots we got the Scarman report, and the Police and Criminal Evidence Act, and were told it would never happen again. After the 1985 Broadwater Farm uprisings we had the unofficial Gifford Inquiry and again were told it would never happen again. Then we got the farce of the Stephen Lawrence murder inquiry, the hypocrisy of the Daily Mail intervention and the Macpherson report, all added to the diversion of the national debate about race relations and policing. (link)​

 

[quadraphonics]

All of society is responsible for enabling actions such as that like against King and against Jean Charles de Menezes to this latest shooting in London.

Well, okay, but not equally responsible.

Certain parts of society have more power - and so, more responsibility.

And I think rioting and beating and killing people is counter-productive and will only ensure that such brutality and treatment by the State will continue into the future.

But is it the responsibility of the underclass to ensure that society works well?

Isn't it their responsibility least of all? I mean, if rioting doesn't do it, and not rioting doesn't do it... then what exactly are they supposed to be doing? Seems the relevant power isn't in their hands, and so criticism of them is a distraction. Which would be to say, a means of taking the side of the State rhetorically, devoid of deeper content.

It provides those who wish to maintain that class and racial line with an excuse.. You can see it here in this thread already.

They've already got all the excuses they need. Might as well get some electronics out of the deal, and shake up the easy assumptions of the bourgeoisie.

Do you understand where I am coming from now?

I understood where you were coming from the first time around.

I think any violence and brutality is inherently bad.

Even violence in self-defense?

It further enables the stereotype.

The expectation that a repressed underclass is responsible for defying stereotypes so that their oppressors can't use them as a basis for oppression is stilted - literally, victim-blaming.

I mean, yeah, it's nice when such stereotype defiance happens. It's probably in the interest of the stereotyped. But the expectation of such is nasty. How about you start by expecting people with power not to indulge in stereotyping as a basis for relating to those they have power over, in the first place? Then when they stop using prejudice as a tool of oppression, maybe we can get around to chiding the powerless for conforming to stereotypes.

While the existence of Beverly Hills is unpaletable and obscene, when one looks at the poverty and racism surrounding it, dragging a man from a truck and smashing is head in with a brick solely because he is white is just as obscene as King's beating. That was not revenge. It only further enabled the State to brutalise blacks some more.

It terrified the living bejesus out of the surrounding (white) bourgeoisie, as well.

I mean yeah, of course it was ugly. Riots are ugly. Would have preferred organized activism that would avoid doing so much damage to the underclass. But whatever - the subject is unrest, not activism.

What you are saying could be construed as saying that the black men who saved Reginald Denny and Fidel Lopez for example, were also aligning themselves with the pigs and the bourgeoisie because they were not supporting the actions of the masses.

Depends on how you construe "support."

I thought the position was pretty clear that violence directed at the actual rich enclaves and authorities would be preferable, which would imply that those citizens working to direct the unrest in that direction, and away from other directions, would be laudably "supporting" said action.

It could be pointed out that what you are doing is cheap and ugly: yourself siezing onto the spectacle of violence to justify siding with the oppressor. Except you just got through condemning the violence on the exact basis that it enables such nasty behavior.

In other words, he was proud of the anarchy..

Yep.

By saying they were dumb because they didn't go and attack Beverly Hills further perpetuates the racist ideology as well.. as though to say 'dumb black people.. when they finally rise up, they can't even get that right'.. I found his argument racist as well as mildly insane. ..

Those words you're stuffing in Gustav's mouth, there: they aren't "his argument." They're a strawman. You should stop using that cheap, inflammatory tactic so frequently. There's presumably enough real things to be offended about, that you don't need to also shoehorn in a bunch of imagined racism or sexism or whatever else to be morally incensed over.

Fat chance of that happening now.

I wouldn't be so cavalier about it - the jolt has been delivered, and while the bourgeoisie will naturally rush into the arms of authority in the short term, they must now understand the illusory nature of that sort of social control, on some level. Not guaranteed to fix anything, but just as the LA riots remain a permanent fixture of the American national psyche when questions of race, class, segregation, police brutality, etc. come up, so these too are now part of the English mental landscape when the social contract comes up. It's a process, and you don't get influence in it by allowing yourself to be ignored and silenced.

Londoners now have to answer some very weighty questions about what sort of face they want to show at next year's Olympics. Unrest and disorder? Authoritarian suppression? Something more positive, perhaps?

The police will now become more brutal and the ideology against the rioters more racist.

But will that actually be supportable in English society, in the long run?

Well, even if it is: at least the bourgeoisie will now be paying the psychic and political costs of the oppression they demand, instead of getting a free ride.

The actions of those children in going hell for leather for what they could grab and then gleefully tell the media that it was all a bit of fun has not done the cause for equality any favours.

A blithe enough assertion, but why not? Maybe equality, at this point, is as better served by a dose of fear (of the underclass, by the bourgeoisie) than admiration (the pursuit of which comprises the stilted game that got us to this juncture in the first place).

The majority of the rioters and looters are teenagers and children.

Of course - and you their mother, charged to decide what's best for them, backing such up with force if need be. Paternalism, in the most literal sense.

The message they send is solely of personal monetary gain. If they wanted to send a message, they would have gone for Government buildings and institutions, not their equally poor neighbours who are also trying to make ends meet and engorging themselves on expensive goods for fun.

Just because they aren't interested in the message you've decided they need to send, doesn't mean they aren't sending a message.

"If the cops and politicians are all crooks, why shouldn't I be one too?" is a message, after all.

And it should be pointed out that the message the bourgeoisie sends to the underclass ("stay in your cage and don't fuck with my property") is also one of purely monetary gain, taken at the expense of faceless others. At least the rioters have the sack to take what they want in person, rather than having the pigs do all their dirty work.

 

[Bells]

that sentiment is somewhat exaggerated but lets just go with the flow.

Next time be clearer.

all had a part to play. the cops who beat king, the guy with the video, the rednecks in simi.........i applaud all of them. i mean, all this drama is really unnecessary but it seems that is what we want, that is what it takes so... why not kick back and enjoy the show? its all in the name of progress, y'know

What progress? Blacks are profiled and abused by the system, just as much if not moreso. So what progress did the riots bring about? Entertainment? If you're into that sort of thing, sure. But it made the human condition of those being victimised worse.. That was the eventuality.

It did nothing but further entrench the racism..

And it did nothing to improve the conditions of those who needed it.

if rioting is what it takes, i have no problem with it. it is a means to an end. the masses will not passively tolerate your tyranny. it is time you guys understand this. why wait for us to come and burn shit down?

My tyranny? For you to burn shit down? You sat on your arse and watched it on TV!

You are merely the fodder that the rich use to fuel the fire to ensure tyranny continues and worsens.. When you cheer them on, the white capitalists cheer with you, because you are helping them prove the point they keep trying to make - that the coloured lower class speak nothing but violence. You are as bad as the likes of the racists in this thread, the River Ape and Hesperado types..

You are cheering for the eventuality, which will be further crackdown and police brutality against the lower class.. You are cheering for the wilful destruction of the property of the lower class, whose homes and work places were burned and destroyed by children who want the brand names.. And I personally find that galling.

Those children have merely ensured the police brutality will continue, that the tyranny will continue.

Have you NOT noticed how the police are merely standing by and letting them loot and letting the media film it? They are proving what the tyrants believe and the result will not be reform but more brutality and more racist policies against the lower class... And those stupid children and teenagers are giving them exactly what they want based solely on greed. It is not something to be cheered but lamented.

 

[Hesperado]

The BBC has just confirmed that the man charged with driving his car at a group of men protecting commercial property during the disturbances in Birmingham, killing three of them, was a BLACK MAN.
Ah well, no doubt there will turn out to be mitigating circumstances!

What!!?? A black man killing Muslims!!??

The white Western PC MCs (Politically Correct Multi-Culturalists) will start to smoke from their ears, bubble and froth, then implode from the impossible contradiction which this fact's effect will have upon their internal wiring.

 

[Gustav]

bells
way too pessimistic, dearie
lets wait for the latest inquiry and its recommendations

You are cheering for the eventuality, which will be further crackdown and police brutality against the lower class

dont be silly
at the very least they will hire a few hundred ethnics into the met perhaps even clearing the 10% mark and showcase that as progress

compare that with the lapd and their 55%. some do learn lessons from riots

 

[Gustav]

The white Western PC MCs (Politically Correct Multi-Culturalists) will start to smoke from their ears, bubble and froth, then implode from the impossible contradiction which this fact's effect will have upon their internal wiring.

now now, you attention whore

 

[Gustav]

A Public Service Announcement for the British in Sciforums

Moderator note: Advice to criminals on how to avoid prosecution has been removed. User Gustav has been banned for 1 week.

ja
you know who you are

/snicker​

 

[Pinwheel]

Where the fuck are the army?

Dodging RPGs in Afganistan.

 

[phlogistician]

Maybe these people need more respect from the majority before they show respect to the majority.

What a load of 'hug a hoodie' twaddle. If there is any rioting near my house, they are going to get shot in the balls, period. I don't give a rat's ass what situation they think justifies their actions, because I was unemployed and on benefits for a while in the late 80's. These kids seem to think they are victims because they don't have the latest iPhone.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

So when I see little snots reacting like they are in London at present, because they can't afford to have 'nice stuff', yes, it angers me.

The main priority at the moment is to catch and punish them, but afterwards the reasons why they are behaving as they are needs to be investigated.

Some of these children have been brought up in appalling circumstances.
Their houses are like rubbish bins and their mothers are emotionally unfit to keep a dog, never mind bring up a child.
Some mothers, (the fathers don't stick around), are addicts or alcoholics.
Picture the circumstances.
Fifty inch TV, men friends, loads of drugs and booze, but the house isn't fit for a pig, never mind the aforementioned dog,
and the child grows up as bad as its parent.

We are now having a recession, after the borrowing binge where everyone supposedly had such an easy time of it.
Some of these people are now suffering the recession, without ever having seen the good times.

Great post though.

 

[Giambattista]

It just brings out the conspiracy theorist in me, everything that is going on these days seems to be by design. Nothing has happened by accident since the 60s.

Nonsense. Can't you see all those poor ethnic minorities are clearly defending themselves against aggressive white shop owners?

England is mine, and it owes me a living...



In other news, Prime Minister Cameron is urged to step down...

(Tripoli) The regime of Libyan leader Moamer Kadhafi on Wednesday called for British Prime Minister David Cameron to step down, saying he had "lost all legitimacy" because of the riots shaking Britain, AFP reported.
"Cameron and his government must leave after the popular uprising against them and the violent repression of peaceful demonstrations by police," official news agency JANA quoted Deputy Foreign Minister Khaled Kaaim as saying.

"Cameron and his government have lost all legitimacy," he said. "These demonstrations show that the British people reject this government which is trying to impose itself through force."

Cameron to Step Down, Recognize Rioters as Legitimate Government?

Given the fine example set in Libya, it follows that the rebels who expressed their grievances against the establishment last night by burning and looting half of London and other cities around the UK should swiftly be given their own embassy and declared the legitimate government of Great Britain and Northern Ireland.

David Cameron and the Queen need to relinquish power immediately now that their authority to rule has been so clearly and justifiably undermined.

The actions by police to disperse these rebels also amounts to an international war crime and mandates an immediate humanitarian intervention from the NATO powers.

If Cameron and the Queen fail to step down and recognize the rebels as the legitimate government, US warplanes are on standby to enforce a “no fly zone” over Great Britain.

Reports are also circulating that NATO could target the Prime Minister and his entire family for assassination if he refuses to vacate London.

The rebels who are attempting to liberate themselves from a corrupt regime by ransacking JD Sports clothing outlets should be be embraced, commended, and supported by the international community.

Satire? Irony? Truth?

Probably all of the above.

TRA la la la la la .....

 

[Giambattista]

The main priority at the moment is to catch and punish them, but afterwards the reasons why they are behaving as they are needs to be investigated.

Let us never venture down the path of saying that possibly Britain can't support it's burgeoning, ever growing population and immigration. Perish the thought.

Oh, and I must add, continuing de-industrialization to remedy climate change is a must. Back to the mud huts with ye!

 

[Hesperado]

now now, you attention whore

The attention is directed not to me, but to the Emperor with no Clothes and all his Naked Subjects who "think you're so clever, classless and free, but you're all bleeping peasants as far as I can see..." (apologies to John Lennon)

 

[phlogistician]

Let us never venture down the path of saying that possibly Britain can't support it's burgeoning, ever growing population and immigration. Perish the thought.

No, let's not. Immigrants are finding work just fine. The problem is with the lazy ass dole scum that were born here, and their lazy ass fucking parents that failed to instil any morals into them.

 

[Giambattista]

No, let's not. Immigrants are finding work just fine. The problem is with the lazy ass dole scum that were born here, and their lazy ass fucking parents that failed to instil any morals into them.

And what is the level of "lazy ass dole scum" to employed as well as unemployed persons in the UK? And are those numbers doctored in any way?

 

[GeoffP]

Interesting and frightening thread.

+1 overall.

 

[Giambattista]

Interesting and frightening thread.

+1 overall.

Tell us all about your feelings. We're here to listen. Intently. Obsessively.