London riots: Violence erupts for third day

[Ghost_007]

Nail.On.Head.

There's a theory that there may be some underlying political reasons. There isn't though. Just a bunch of assholes getting themselves some plasma TV action.

Yes, but I can see some sections of society and media using these events to play politics.

Yes the police haven't handled the situation in the best way, same with the Government but there is no excuse for what is going on now. It has nothing to do with injustice, poverty or unemployment, it is about youngsters looting and destroying property.

 

[RedRabbit]

How do you know this?

Maybe I should have said that there isn't a underlying political agenda here. They haven't issued a statement or made clear that they have one, they are unconnected to eachother except for the fact that they are rioting in different parts of London and other cities and Twitter is full of interactions between them organising what places to target and which stores to loot. As well as wish lists for items they wish to obtain.They're not out there protesting the cuts in the police service. They're not targetting civil buildings in order to force any political change.

And since when is that exclusive of political motivations? If masses of people care less about public order and allegiance to the prevailing authority than they do about the chance to grab up some free TVs, that's a political issue. That's the exact fundamental issue that states were invented to address, in the first place.

Unless you're going to argue that the rioters are simply subhuman Others?

All things within a society stem from a political issue. The shape of my bananas is political! The fact that it seems to be the poorer parts of the cities must mean that the riots are influenced by politics in some way, (high unemployment, social inequality, bleak job prospects, sub-standard educational facilities, closing of youth centres in recent cutbacks). My point is that even if these issues have in some way lead to the riots it is not what the riots are trying to overturn. They are blatanly opportunistic in nature. Everything I've read or heard from those involved points to this.

The only people I would refer to as "subhuman Others" would be Manchester United fans.

 

[RedRabbit]

Yes, but I can see some sections of society and media using these events to play politics.

Yes the police haven't handled the situation in the best way, same with the Government but there is no excuse for what is going on now. It has nothing to do with injustice, poverty or unemployment, it is about youngsters looting and destroying property.

I agree. Some of the grandstanding and point scoring by different sections of the political parties has been disgusting. London's burning and the politicos are playing a game of tit-for-tat.

 

[quadraphonics]

Maybe I should have said that there isn't a underlying political agenda here.

I could sign up to a statement like "these are not an organized political demonstration."

But that's hardly a reason to write off the political aspect of the events - people don't riot for shits and giggles. If this were an isolated alcohol-fuled riot celebrating a major sporting event, it might be a different story. As it is, the political dimension seems pretty obvious: you've got a big underclass that's sick of being rode roughshod over by the cops and marginalized by the political classes, and they want to let you know they aren't going to sit still for it any longer. Very similar to the LA riots in that sense. Or most riots, really.

They haven't issued a statement or made clear that they have one,

Open, widespread, violent opposition to the existing social order is about as direct and clear-cut a political statement as it is possible to make.

Your complaint seems to be, again, that they aren't organized, or limited, or confining themselves to peaceful democratic means. But none of that is a requirement of political action or agenda.

All things within a society stem from a political issue. The shape of my bananas is political! The fact that it seems to be the poorer parts of the cities must mean that the riots are influenced by politics in some way, (high unemployment, social inequality, bleak job prospects, sub-standard educational facilities, closing of youth centres in recent cutbacks).

More pointedly, the issue here seems to have been treatment of said underclass by the police.

My point is that even if these issues have in some way lead to the riots it is not what the riots are trying to overturn.

Why not? Because they aren't suitably organized or directed? That's what mass uprising against perception of an inequitable social order looks like. People give up their allegiance to said order, and do for themselves. That's about as clear, explicit and forceful of a political statement as can be made: "we find that this order doesn't work for us, and so we're not going to continue to play along and allow the rest of you to profit off of it. Instead, we're going to take whatever we want." The demand for a new order that addresses these issues seems clear-cut, there.

 

[Ghost_007]

This is from Bristol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x5XOu2BS0gk

 

[quadraphonics]

It has nothing to do with injustice, poverty or unemployment, it is about youngsters looting and destroying property.

That you could write such a sentence with a straight face (so to speak) illustrates exactly the issue the rioters are raising - the alternative to a just system that keeps people employed and out of poverty, is one in which social order breaks down. If the plan is to rely on authoritarian suppression to cope with that - keep "order" and depend on the silence and complicity of those left behind... well, you're being shown the result. Easy assumptions that the underclass will politely remain obedient and ignore-able, indefinitely, are just that.

Honestly, I'd expect somebody with a Joker avatar to grok this a little better...

 

[Stryder]

The police tactics have changed over the years, they've come along way from linking their arms together to create a barrier and getting bricks thrown at them with no shielding.

In inner cities in the UK there are Armed Police Response Units, this is something that wasn't regularly seen in the 80's or even the 90's (Apart from of course locking London down with the Ring of Steel, when impending IRA attacks were imminent.)

Over the decades however various subcultures have formed that inspire Violence and Retaliation(Revenge). These cultures might be fed by images from the media, games and even the music scene. The ideology of material wealth and of sticking it to those that stand in there way has become predominant.

The cultures are the starting point of mobs and mobs don't think like rational human beings, they become a different animal all to their own.

The usage of violence and fear is also gang related, after all if a section of London is so dangerous that the police won't enter while chasing a suspect, it means those gangs can get away with near enough murder. (It might not be quite that level yet, but there are areas of Northern Ireland that the police won't go near.)

The problem of course is you have the underprivileged seen as a criminal anarchistic fraternity underpinning the countries stability, however this perception is put forward by a blatent mirror image at the opposite end of extremes. White collar criminals.

 

[chimpkin]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation

One of the ways to re-individuate a crowd psychologically is to run in and grab random people out of it.

This makes everyone in the crowd nervous for themselves; it's a basic-crowd-control technique.

 

[Stryder]

One interesting point is that the only thing that can fix a subculture is by inducing another one to take it's place, Fads go in and out of existence all the time.

How do you replace the subculture or deal with a poverty line?

Well you need to offer and alternative, originally Education was one of the main ways to keep people at least focused on attempting to do something other than standing on street corners, harassing passersby. Thanks to last years increase in Student fee's, thats a lot of poor students not being able to get into a college or university, meaning that they will likely be stuck fighting over the same dead end jobs for the rest of their life.

To a Government, Giving people pills for depression is the cheaper fix, rather than actually dealing with what causes their depression and anxiety. So I guess it was planned all these "Drop outs" were going to fund some drug company and make some politician rich. (The funny point about that is a street dealer gets years in Jail, A political person investing their funds in a Pharmaceutical company to deal with the poor doesn't even get looked at, let alone arrested)

 

[Stryder]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deindividuation

One of the ways to re-individuate a crowd psychologically is to run in and grab random people out of it.

This makes everyone in the crowd nervous for themselves; it's a basic-crowd-control technique.

If only it was that simple, If one person gets grabbed the mob attacks those attempting to take them. If more than one attempt occurs it might route the mob, but they'll soon develop a new target to aim at with full force.

 

[chimpkin]

If only it was that simple, If one person gets grabbed the mob attacks those attempting to take them. If more than one attempt occurs it might route the mob, but they'll soon develop a new target to aim at with full force.

Well, by the time violence occurs you've waited too long to apply that one.

You apply that at the milling-around stage. Nonviolent crowd control rather stops working once the crowd hits critical mass and violence stage.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Once they realise they are out of control, the game is up.
We can't increase the number of Police, so the means of control will have to change.
Next stage is tear gas. Coshes. Maybe the French police can come and train ours.
I hope they don't have to use rubber bullets, because they kill people.


Rioter:
Wow, I is well 'ungry after me night's riotin'
What is dare for breakfast Mum?

Mum:
Nuffink, you burnt all the shops down yesterday, rememba?
There's an egg if you like.

Rioter:
A egg? No fear. I'd raaver starve to def.
Oh no, I jus' fort.
We burned down de chip shop as well.
Dat means dares nuffink for dinner neiver.

 

[Varda]

I want that to spread here.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Varda stands outside her burned out shell of a house, uninsured because it was destroyed in a riot.

Varda:
When I said here, I didn't mean here.

 

[Bells]

That you could write such a sentence with a straight face (so to speak) illustrates exactly the issue the rioters are raising - the alternative to a just system that keeps people employed and out of poverty, is one in which social order breaks down. If the plan is to rely on authoritarian suppression to cope with that - keep "order" and depend on the silence and complicity of those left behind... well, you're being shown the result. Easy assumptions that the underclass will politely remain obedient and ignore-able, indefinitely, are just that.

Honestly, I'd expect somebody with a Joker avatar to grok this a little better...

I think you are giving them too much credit.

While certainly, the "underclass" in the UK have a lot to be angry about, this has blossomed past their plight. Looting is often a symptom of poverty. However what we are seeing now is should not be solely attributed to poverty. There is a violent element at play here and I suspect the ones doing it are not the ones living in these communities.

We have all seen this image plastered in the media:

This incredible image, posted by James Robinson on Twitter, shows a woman jumping from a burning building in Surrey Street, as the flames take hold.

Our reporter Gareth Davies, who has been at the scene throughout tonight's riots, has also told how residents and police were helping people jump to safety from homes near Reeves Corner, by breaking their falls with matresses and other materials.

[Source]
​

It paints a very disturbing image.

I am not disagreeing with you that poverty is a driving force in this. The Guardian had a brilliant piece which provides a lot of insight into how this is a release of pent up rage over the plight of the poverty stricken areas of the UK.. What I will say is that their plight will now be overshadowed by the actions of those who deliberately set out to harm others and are using this as a cover. To some, it's all a bit of fun.

 

[River Ape]

FACT! When I heard that London was awarded the 2012 Olympics the very first thing I did was turn to a friend and ask him what odds he would give me that they never took place.
He looked puzzled -- but didn't offer me odds.
It has come as no surprise to me that London's experiment in multiracial multiculturalism has reached meltdown.
I just hope the British Olympic Association has an insurance policy that covers the Games not taking place. I shouldn't want the British taxpayer to pick up the tab for refunding all the tickets.

In the long run, the solution to England's problems lies in sterilisation or deportation.
Unless the English pull themselves together soon it may be they who face elimination.

 

[nietzschefan]

FACT! When I heard that London was awarded the 2012 Olympics the very first thing I did was turn to a friend and ask him what odds he would give me that they never took place.
He looked puzzled -- but didn't offer me odds.
It has come as no surprise to me that London's experiment in multiracial multiculturalism has reached meltdown.
I just hope the British Olympic Association has an insurance policy that covers the Games not taking place. I shouldn't want the British taxpayer to pick up the tab for refunding all the tickets.

In the long run, the solution to England's problems lies in sterilisation or deportation.
Unless the English pull themselves together soon it may be they who face elimination.

Never understood why already semi-crowded Europe flirted with multiculturalism. WTF is there so much immigration there? It just makes me think, it's by design from waaaay up top. This whole mess.

Canada was an easy sell as we needed people and the country is frankly 95% immigrant origin.

 

[Captain Kremmen]

Similar to the Al Jazeera coverage in Tunisia, the LBC radio coverage is brilliant.
If you want to hear intelligent minute by minute coverage, listen at
http://www.lbc.co.uk/listen-live-3578

 

[CptBork]

Never understood why already semi-crowded Europe flirted with multiculturalism. WTF is there so much immigration there? It just makes me think, it's by design from waaaay up top. This whole mess.

Canada was an easy sell as we needed people and the country is frankly 95% immigrant origin.

Yeah, but immigrants who themselves can't tolerate other peoples and cultures and integrate into the general society are not welcomed here in any fashion, whereas Britain seems to take them in droves. If an immigrant has dreams of turning your country into a clone of the country they're trying to leave, they're just as well off staying put in their original homeland.

 

[nietzschefan]

It just brings out the conspiracy theorist in me, everything that is going on these days seems to be by design. Nothing has happened by accident since the 60s.