Why Monogamy Is Ridiculous

[scheherazade]

Pleased to meet you. I am a male,happily married and committed, and look very much like my avi Uncle Lester.

When I lived in Oklahoma, 5 teenaged girls got busted for kidnapping and serial raping a teenaged boy classmate in a barn owned by one of the girls parents. They were convicted and did the time.

Once again, with feeling: rape is NOT a crime of passion, it is a crime of control through violence and intimidation. It is NOT an effective reproduction strategy, it goes against the standard model, which is also in current peril.

Though we most often tend to identify the crime of rape as one that is primarily an assault on women by men, as you have identified, women are quite capable of the atrocity as well. Same sex assaults or male-male and female-female prison rape are quite common and may be the least reported form of rape, according to some studies.

There is no single theory that conclusively explains the motivation for rape; the motives of rapists can be multi-factorial and are the subject of debate. Researchers have attempted to explain the motivation of a rapist in terms of socioeconomics, anger, power, sadism, sexual pleasure, psychopathy, ethical standards, attitudes toward women and evolutionary pressures. From Wiki

While I tend to agree that rape is less often a crime of sexual passion than one related to power and dominance, there are a number of contributing factors under study. I wonder how much the changing role of women in society is contributing to a sense of insecurity in some individuals, which may be translating into sexual aggression? That comment from a North American perspective, as in other parts of the world rape may have completely different motivation and bias.

 

[scheherazade]

What kind of equality are you talking about?

Financial (notice I put this at the top of the list)
Social Status
Intellectual
Emotional
Sexual desire & frequency
Personality (usually one is more dominate)

Kind of tough to line up all things to be equal. Most people want companionship and sex more than they want to wait for the perfect mate to come along.

Your query to Anti-Flag in regard to equality is most interesting, especially as you draw attention to Financial equality by intentionally placing it at the top of the list.

I have a very clear understanding of what I consider to be my equal in a man, and I encounter it very seldom. I am married to one, and I work for one. The few others I have met are safely tucked into my small inner circle of friends.

Yes, I await Anti-Flag's reply with interest on this one......

And an afterthought.......my husband was NOT my financial equal when we met. He agreed to assist me in the unloading of a large truck of hay for the princely sum of $10.00/hr. He later said that he had interpreted a 'semi-load' of hay to mean a partial truck load. He had no idea what he was getting into, lol.....

But he stuck it out.....proved that he had a good work ethic.

 

[visceral_instinct]

Pleased to meet you. I am a male,happily married and committed, and look very much like my avi Uncle Lester.

When I lived in Oklahoma, 5 teenaged girls got busted for kidnapping and serial raping a teenaged boy classmate in a barn owned by one of the girls parents. They were convicted and did the time.

Once again, with feeling: rape is NOT a crime of passion, it is a crime of control through violence and intimidation. It is NOT an effective reproduction strategy, it goes against the standard model, which is also in current peril.

Exactly, if it were about passion, ie a form of love, the guy would be shocked and ashamed the minute he realized he'd crossed a boundary and stop.

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

It took 33 years and one horribly dysfunctional marriage, but I eventually figured out that what I wanted (and want) in a wife is basically the same as what I want in a friend:

• 1. Honesty
• 2. Loyalty
• 3. Generosity
• 4. Fun
• 5. Intellectual companionship

Obviously romance and sex are added to that list for a wife, but without all of the first five those two don't easily happen, and are unlikely to endure if they do happen. Whereas with the first five they can happen naturally and unconsciously, and are more likely to survive the passage of time.

So yes, I finally found her and we'll be celebrating our 34th anniversary next month.

 

[DNA100]

I think the reason why so many people among us try to promote monogamy is the simple reason that a man will never want to father someone else's child without knowing about it. That's one of the most humiliating things that can happen to a man.
Also, the child is likely to grow up better under the care of the two genuine parents.

As long as children are not involved in the equation- that is -if there is a 100% way to be sure that you don't have to father someone else's child, then I guess polygamy is fine. But I want to remind you that currently that's not the case- we don't have a mandatory, cheap and privacy preserving way of paternity tests.

Males really have vey little say ove their own child birth. If they have sex once, after that it's all upto the whims of the female partner. And I think that needs to change.

 

[billvon]

I think the reason why so many people among us try to promote monogamy is the simple reason that a man will never want to father someone else's child without knowing about it.

Perhaps - but the drive we have is for sex, not reproduction. And as we know, sex often leads to reproduction whether they anticipate that or not.

That's one of the most humiliating things that can happen to a man.
Also, the child is likely to grow up better under the care of the two genuine parents.

Agreed. But evolution does not care how well they grow up, just that they reproduce. Ten sickly, maladjusted children, of whom only three reproduce, is evolutionarily a winner over two healthy, well adjusted children who reproduce.

In ancient times those ten kids might not have survived at all, which is where many of our drives to protect our children comes from. But nowadays that doesn't happen nearly as often.

 

[DNA100]

Perhaps - but the drive we have is for sex, not reproduction. And as we know, sex often leads to reproduction whether they anticipate that or not.



Agreed. But evolution does not care how well they grow up, just that they reproduce. Ten sickly, maladjusted children, of whom only three reproduce, is evolutionarily a winner over two healthy, well adjusted children who reproduce.

In ancient times those ten kids might not have survived at all, which is where many of our drives to protect our children comes from. But nowadays that doesn't happen nearly as often.

May be, but humans are one of those animals that does not always act on immidiate impulses and can see the long term consequences.
Evolution may give us the drive for sex, but as social animals for thousands of years, we have also developed certain other priorities which can't be completely ignored.

I think in our society polygamy in true sense is only possible when both sexes have no worries about raising children. Currently females still have a great deal of control over their child birth, males don't have that control in the modern legal system and largely depend on female whims.

 

[billvon]

May be, but humans are one of those animals that does not always act on immidiate impulses and can see the long term consequences.

Agreed. What worked for us pre-civilization often does not work today.

 

[Anti-Flag]

What kind of equality are you talking about?

Financial (notice I put this at the top of the list)
Social Status
Intellectual
Emotional
Sexual desire & frequency
Personality (usually one is more dominate)

Kind of tough to line up all things to be equal. Most people want companionship and sex more than they want to wait for the perfect mate to come along.

I would say equality in the sense that one sex is not prefered over the other on the sole basis of gender. For example a women is not automatically responsible for the cooking, cleaning, looking after the kids etc.
When it comes to relationships people have to find a comfortable compromise that both parties are happy with, but this should be drawn along lines other than gender, such as logic and happiness.
If people want sex and companionship rather than a long term relationship then that's fine, so long as they're open and honest about it and respect that not everyone may want that.

In a few phrases you have clearly indicated that you have established priorities for what you would appreciate in a partner.

I'm impressed by your short list.

I'm even more impressed by the things you have NOT listed.

I very much know what I want. I'm sure I missed many things, care to enlighten me on what you would have expected?

 

[KilljoyKlown]

I would say equality in the sense that one sex is not prefered over the other on the sole basis of gender. For example a women is not automatically responsible for the cooking, cleaning, looking after the kids etc.
When it comes to relationships people have to find a comfortable compromise that both parties are happy with, but this should be drawn along lines other than gender, such as logic and happiness.
If people want sex and companionship rather than a long term relationship then that's fine, so long as they're open and honest about it and respect that not everyone may want that.

There are things every family needs and those things need to be worked out before marriage and children come along. All to often nothing is settled or even discussed before a child is on the way. Anyway I for one have nothing against sharing the household work if my mate is also bringing in an income.

 

[scheherazade]

I very much know what I want. I'm sure I missed many things, care to enlighten me on what you would have expected?
Anti-Flag

Honesty, empathy, compassion and respect.

Self-respect.
Respect for me.
Respect for all life forms.

It takes a special kind of strength to be gentle to others.

I observe the mating game as it goes on around me, and listen to what people say they are seeking in others.

Whatever you seek in another, they have the equal right to expect in return.

Water will ever seek it's own level.....

The physical things in this world, physical form, material goods.....are all transient in nature.....fine for enjoying in the moment.

That which will endure is a little harder to define. A few people still find it.

The others are too busy swapping partners, trading up, and keeping lawyers well supported.

Commitment, to whatever degree one makes it, must be honored.

Tilting at windmills is still acceptable.

 

[scheherazade]

It took 33 years and one horribly dysfunctional marriage, but I eventually figured out that what I wanted (and want) in a wife is basically the same as what I want in a friend:

• 1. Honesty
• 2. Loyalty
• 3. Generosity
• 4. Fun
• 5. Intellectual companionship

Obviously romance and sex are added to that list for a wife, but without all of the first five those two don't easily happen, and are unlikely to endure if they do happen. Whereas with the first five they can happen naturally and unconsciously, and are more likely to survive the passage of time.

So yes, I finally found her and we'll be celebrating our 34th anniversary next month.

Fraggle sounds like he has a similar take on 'what it takes to make it'.

I notice he didn't list physical appearance or financial status among his first priorities.

For the fellows.....what criteria should 'a woman of means' use when seeking a partner? Should she hold out for a 'hottie' with deep pockets and an intimate knowledge of the Kama Sutra?


I hypothesize there would be a lot of lonely women out there.....

My congratulations Fraggle, to yourself and your partner. May health, happiness and love attend you both.

 

[Telemachus Rex]

what criteria should 'a woman of means' use when seeking a partner?

The one answer for any woman of means is: a good prenuptial agreement. As for the rest, it depends on the woman. It's a tricky business finding someone you mesh with well and with whom you will continue to mesh well over decades.

Fraggle has the first key to it, that you generally need to find someone with whom you could be close friends. Who that would be varies from person to person, and some people simply do not keep friends easily in the long term.

While not the only criteria there is, I happen to know several couples who's success may be attributable to there having been a crisis in their lives in which the men stepped up, largely took control of the situation, and let their significant other know that everything would be handled. It sounds a bit sexist, with the man more or less seizing control, but I think there is something comforting for many women in knowing that, in a crisis, the man they are with is decisive and willing to make tough calls that are for the benefit of the family. That is not necessarily to the exclusion of getting any input at all from the women, but there are problems that are difficult to handle by committee, even a committee of two (and sometimes especially a committee of two).

 

[Fraggle Rocker]

I think the reason why so many people among us try to promote monogamy is the simple reason that a man will never want to father someone else's child without knowing about it.

These days, at least in the Western countries where the fertility rate is dropping below replacement level, lots of us don't want children but we still want to be married.

Also, the child is likely to grow up better under the care of the two genuine parents.

Two parents of any sort would be pretty good. I know most single parents try their damnedest and many of them manage to do a good job, but the statistics are pretty stark about the probability of a child growing up with fewer than two parents simply not growing up very well. The vast majority of people in prison (an astounding 0.6% of our population, the largest percentage in the world), for example, grew up with no fathers.

Males really have vey little say ove their own child birth. If they have sex once, after that it's all upto the whims of the female partner. And I think that needs to change.

I had a vasectomy. End of problem.

I notice he didn't list physical appearance or financial status among his first priorities.

With the exception of the unfortunate few with serious problems, everyone is sufficiently good-looking to be appealing. Once you fall in love with someone you wake up and realize that he or she is the most handsome man/beautiful woman on earth. As for financial status, obviously the importance of that depends on one's own financial status.

Mrs. Fraggle was not especially prosperous when I met her because her parents had done a singularly crappy job of preparing her for life and she was still catching up. (Got her B.A. at age 36 and M.A. at 43, on my watch, for example.) But she is a great financial manager and has been the family CFO for many years. I make the money, she invests it, and in aggregate more of what he have now is the result of her work than mine.

My congratulations Fraggle, to yourself and your partner. May health, happiness and love attend you both.

Thanks. Been doing pretty well so far. Of course we War Babies are the healthiest not-a-whole-generation of Americans in history. And of course we make our own happiness; it's a choice. As for love, she turned me into a "dog person" so I have more love in my heart and my home than I ever dreamed was possible. Fortunately my parents were dog people so I grew up with them. IMHO (and not just my opinion) that's one of the keys to raising a sensible, well-balanced child. The unwavering, lifelong love of a fellow creature helps make life bearable and understandable.

Fraggle has the first key to it, that you generally need to find someone with whom you could be close friends. Who that would be varies from person to person, and some people simply do not keep friends easily in the long term.

Gloria Allred put it succinctly: Don't look for the person you want in your life, be that person. That way you'll never have to worry about losing them and you can allow your friends, family and spouse to be whoever they need to be. (Not an exact quote.)

 

[scheherazade]

Precisely.

Be the kind of person that you want to attract.

Excellent advice.

 

[scheherazade]

The one answer for any woman of means is: a good prenuptial agreement. As for the rest, it depends on the woman. It's a tricky business finding someone you mesh with well and with whom you will continue to mesh well over decades.

Fraggle has the first key to it, that you generally need to find someone with whom you could be close friends. Who that would be varies from person to person, and some people simply do not keep friends easily in the long term.

While not the only criteria there is, I happen to know several couples who's success may be attributable to there having been a crisis in their lives in which the men stepped up, largely took control of the situation, and let their significant other know that everything would be handled. It sounds a bit sexist, with the man more or less seizing control, but I think there is something comforting for many women in knowing that, in a crisis, the man they are with is decisive and willing to make tough calls that are for the benefit of the family. That is not necessarily to the exclusion of getting any input at all from the women, but there are problems that are difficult to handle by committee, even a committee of two (and sometimes especially a committee of two).

Welcome to the forum, Telemachus Rex.

An interesting choice of name. Have you selected it for the character in Homer`s Odyssey or for the martyred monk, credited with beginning the end of gladiatorial games?

A most interesting reply in observance that while relationships are a benevolent partnership, that in a crisis someone has to make the critical decisions.

Perhaps strange, but men who know me, often look to me for advice when challenges arise. Truth be told, it would be nice to let others shoulder the burden on occasion.

I suppose that's what happens when you are first born and female instead of the usually hoped for male heir. A peaceful female warrior, by early conditioning.

In all fairness, I think a man of means should also consider a prenuptial agreement in light of today's relationships so often ending up at the whim of the courts.

 

[KilljoyKlown]

In all fairness, I think a man of means should also consider a prenuptial agreement in light of today's relationships so often ending up at the whim of the courts.

Just bringing up the prenuptial agreement, is an interesting way to judge the state and quality of your relationship and in some cases it's a deal breaker. Either way it goes you should be better off.

 

[Anti-Flag]

There are things every family needs and those things need to be worked out before marriage and children come along. All to often nothing is settled or even discussed before a child is on the way. Anyway I for one have nothing against sharing the household work if my mate is also bringing in an income.

Very true, and a lot of marraiges fail for that reason (amongst a few others).

Honesty, empathy, compassion and respect.

Self-respect.
Respect for me.
Respect for all life forms.

Without honesty there can be no relationship, if there is no foundation of truth there is no trust and a breakdown is inevitable. I agree with the other traits listed too, and I'm sure there are several others, that may take a while to list, and indeed to think of. Loyalty - effectively a willingness to work through the problems that we all have, faithfulness(if that is what was agreed upon), kindness.

It takes a special kind of strength to be gentle to others.

I observe the mating game as it goes on around me, and listen to what people say they are seeking in others.

Whatever you seek in another, they have the equal right to expect in return.

Water will ever seek it's own level.....

Agreed, I would expect nothing less than what I can give in return, and nothing more.

The physical things in this world, physical form, material goods.....are all transient in nature.....fine for enjoying in the moment.

That which will endure is a little harder to define. A few people still find it.

The others are too busy swapping partners, trading up, and keeping lawyers well supported.

Commitment, to whatever degree one makes it, must be honored.

Tilting at windmills is still acceptable.

Agreed, it's all too sad how few people see that. I used to think that was just the youthful in their naivity, but it seems the ignorance often perpetuates into adulthood for too many.

 

[chimpkin]

Scheherazade said:

The physical things in this world, physical form, material goods.....are all transient in nature.....fine for enjoying in the moment.

That which will endure is a little harder to define. A few people still find it.

I find a juicy brain the most attractive physical feature...and my wife is exceedingly smart. Smarter than me, although I can be a more practical thinker.

I was looking at her picture today and was just walloped by love...I wish I could show you her face but I don't have permission. She has the prettiest eyes.

A picture of her holding a giant chard leaf is here:

http://www.sciforums.com/album.php?albumid=153&pictureid=908

 

[visceral_instinct]

Currently females still have a great deal of control over their child birth, males don't have that control in the modern legal system and largely depend on female whims.

Shut the hell up. That is an insult to all the children who were forced to have contact with fathers who were outright abusive, because fathers' rights were given priority over children's welfare. Yeah, it's ALL about the women. (sarcasm)