Trying to hard to believe

Jan Ardena said:
If you TRY to become a theist, like if you TRY to love your girlfriend, it's not real theism, and it's not real love, no matter how sincere you are. It has to be real.
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Do you often confuse "loving your girlfriend" with "trying to love your girlfriend?"

So you can be 100% sincere and it not be real? How do you know the difference between it being real and it simply being a temporary misunderstanding?
 
Except when you actually talk to a priest, they lower the bar dramatically. "No, it's not hard to be saved, all you have to do is say, "I accept Jesus into my heart"." Or be baptized.
 
James R said:
I brought it up as an example of a theist who became an atheist - something that Jan Ardena claims can never happen. In other words, it's a counter-example - one of thousands or millions available - that contradicts Jan's claim.
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Again, you and Jan are working with different definitions of "God" and "theism."

With your definitions of "God" and "theism," any nonsense can count for theism. No wonder you see evidence of "theists becoming atheists" so often.


Just checking that we agree - again.
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This time we do, on this point. But many other times, we don't - instead, you impose on me your opinion that we agree.
Since you are the man with the hatchet, and you have a history of using it unjustly, one is wary to talk to you or to try to clarify points with you.
 
Fraggle Rocker said:
Even you have never actually cited a question I didn't answer or a point I didn't explain. You just toss out vague criticisms with no specific referents. And by the way, that is a hallmark of poor communication skills.
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Two things:

One, you are forgetting that expertise in one field does not automatically translate into expertise in all areas of life.

Two, you use a very aggressive communication style. For some purposes, this kind of style can get you the results you want. Such as subjecting people to yourself, getting them to express agreement with you, getting them to fear you and keep a distance to you. It's easy to confuse those for love and respect.


If you would actually be familiar with issues on communication, you'd know exactly what I'm talking about.
 
wynn said:
Again, you and Jan are working with different definitions of "God" and "theism."

With your definitions of "God" and "theism," any nonsense can count for theism. No wonder you see evidence of "theists becoming atheists" so often.
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Speaking of nonsense...

Even by your narrow definition of theism, people become atheists all the time. People can love and worship and be devoted to God only to decide later that they do not believe it exists. I recall Mother Theresa having a similar conflict late in her life; would you say she wasn't a proper theist?

This time we do, on this point. But many other times, we don't - instead, you impose on me your opinion that we agree.
Since you are the man with the hatchet, and you have a history of using it unjustly, one is wary to talk to you or to try to clarify points with you.
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Oh come on. When have you known James to ban someone for disagreeing with him?
 
Motor Daddy said:
Are you implying that people can believe less than 100%? So what you are saying is that one can believe 99% in God and the other 1% atheist? So am I correct to assume that theoretically one could believe 1% in God and the other 99% be an atheist? Is that how it works?

Assuming that is all correct, how would one measure one's percentage?iHow would one know if they believe 100% or not?

If one can only know if they believe 100% when tested under fire, would one have to literally burn to know they believe 100%?
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When you're angry, are you 100% angry, or is your anger related to the circumstances?

jan.
 
Motor Daddy said:
1. Do you often confuse "loving your girlfriend" with "trying to love your girlfriend?"

2. So you can be 100% sincere and it not be real? How do you know the difference between it being real and it simply being a temporary misunderstanding?
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hy

1. No. why do you ask?

2. Usually when after some time one of 'you say's something like...''maybe we should start seeing other people......it's not you it's me...''

jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
hy

1. No. why do you ask?
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Because you made the statement:
Jan Ardena said:
If you TRY to become a theist, like if you TRY to love your girlfriend, it's not real theism, and it's not real love, no matter how sincere you are. It has to be real.
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Jan Ardena said:
2. Usually when after some time one of 'you say's something like...''maybe we should start seeing other people......it's not you it's me...''
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Do you mean to imply that since people end up ending relationships, that they must not have ever really had the relationship to begin with? You are confusing me, Jan. Will you please speak very precisely so that I too can relate to you?
 
Motor Daddy said:
Because you made the statement:



Do you mean to imply that since people end up ending relationships, that they must not have ever really had the relationship to begin with? You are confusing me, Jan. Will you please speak very precisely so that I too can relate to you?
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Life is purely about relationships, so your understanding is off, or should I say your attempt to obfuscate.

Lay out exactly what you don't get, and I will do my best to clarify.

jan.
 
Motor Daddy said:
I agree. I asked you this and you ignored it:





Did you always believe in God? Will you always believe in God?
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The response, if answered honestly, provides you with a solid answer to the question.


No. Which proves my point. It had to make sense to me. I just didn't enter into some organisation then claim to believe without it making any sense.

jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
The response, if answered honestly, provides you with a solid answer to the question.


No. Which proves my point. It had to make sense to me. I just didn't enter into some organisation then claim to believe without it making any sense.

jan.
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So I assume that is a "NO" to the question "did you always believe in God?"

Is that also a "NO" to the question "will you always believe in God?"
 
Motor Daddy said:
This is what I don't get: Why do you think that if one stops believing that one must have never believed to begin with?
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I didn't say that.

I said an atheist (especially a modern one) cannot believe in God without changing his mindset. If he enters into religion with the same atheist mindset, then he can not believe.

For example, quite a few times I ask atheists what it is that would make them believe, and their answer usually indicates something that they or modern science cannot explain. IOW, they are saying that such a thing would change their current mindset. Do you get it now?

jan.
 
Jan Ardena said:
I didn't say that.

I said an atheist (especially a modern one) cannot believe in God without changing his mindset. If he enters into religion with the same atheist mindset, then he can not believe.
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I agree, and that is equivalent to saying "You can't start believing until you stop disbelieving." That is very profound, Jan.
 
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