The Phoenix lights - aliens, hoax or mistaken identity?

Discussion in 'UFOs, Ghosts and Monsters' started by James R, Nov 26, 2014.

  1. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    16,699
    Yeah, they're only the actual eyewitnesses to the craft. Witnesses who, unlike skeptics, have no agenda to twist the facts to fit some preconclusion. So who we gonna believe? The people who overwhelmingly describe a craft that blacked out the stars and made no noise and flew about 1000 feet and was as big as a football field? Or James, who in five minutes visits a skeptic website and concludes they were aircraft flying in formation at night, which nobody yet has even confirmed ever happened. The witnesses afterall just wanted to be on the news. So they all made up the same details of that night. Yeah, that explains it. lol!
     
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  3. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Are you sure all those witnesses have no agenda?

    People make money out of UFOs. There's an industry out there promoting them. Not everybody is in it for the money, of course. Some of them are in it for the publicity - their 15 minutes of fame on the nightly news or on the UFO web sites. Some make a career out of being a UFO "expert" who has had many personal experiences. Some of those people are flat-out fraudsters.

    And even the ones who are honest are often mistaken about what they think they saw, as I have explained.

    Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. And there simply is no extraordinary evidence that a football-field- sized spacecraft ever flew over Phoenix (or anywhere else for that matter).

    But don't take my word for it. Investigate for yourself. Believing the UFO nuts is just as bad as believing me. If you're going to be skeptical about what I have to say, then apply that same skepticism to the people who are saying what you'd like to be true.
     
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  5. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Yes. I'm sure these people who reported seeing this thing have no secret agenda to be rich or famous. That's certainly NOT the kind of fame people want--of being scoffed at and ridiculed for seeing a ufo. These people have probably suffered so much for simply speaking the truth that they wish they'd never come forward.

    Other people make money out of debunking ufos. Whole magazines and societies online devoted to debunking anything unusual or paranormal. You could just as quickly become the darling of the skeptical world by claiming the lights were just aircraft. Joe Nickel, Michael Shermer, James Randi, all THOSE guys would come to your house and you'd be a hit overnight. Do I believe people actually think this way? No..But I'm simply showing how easy it is to apply sinister motives to people you don't even know.

    Hundreds of eyewitness accounts IS extraordinary evidence.

    I simply read the accounts given by the witnesses, as well as the summaries of the data provided by the people who actually gathered the accounts. That's good enough for me. I don't need someone who believes there never have been nor never can be any such thing as ufos telling ME what these people saw.

    Here's another summary of the reports:

    http://www.dudeman.net/siriusly/0/sup/phoenix.html
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2014
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  7. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    You have the sides wrong. It isn't a 2-sides argument, it is a 1-sided argument. The advocates of the alien spacecraft hypothesis have to convince everyone else (James, me, etc.) they are right. So far, you've failed very badly.

    That's the quantity=quality fallacy. Crap cannot ever become gold, no matter how much of it you have.
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2014
  8. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    It isn't about letting other possibilities being acknowledged - it isn't like he deleted all references to them in the thread - it is about what explanations he accepts as potentially viable. And alien spacecraft are not a potentially viable explanation until they are proven to exist.
     
  9. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    No..there is no burden to prove the eyewitnesses saw what they said they saw. That we know based on the clarity and uniformity of the descriptions. People who have not collaborated do NOT make up the same details about the same sighting that is called in within hours of that event. The strange underwater quality of the lights. The size of the craft's wings. It's utter silence. The trajectory of its path. So the burden lies on you to prove they are lying or are mistaken, if that is what you are claiming. So far no one has done that.

    Eyewitness accounts ARE gold. We send criminals to prison based on it. Only in the paranoid little world of skeptics does it become dubious and inadequate. "Hey! They're all lying douchebags! Case closed." What a pathetically weak argument...

    Here's ANOTHER summary of the events of that night:

    "One of the more famous appearances of these craft was during the event known as the "Phoenix Lights", where multiple unidentified objects, many of them black triangles, were spotted by the residents of Phoenix, Arizona and videotaped by both the local media and residents with camcorders across multiple evenings beginning on Thursday, March 13, 1997. Some lights drifted as low as 1000 feet and moved far too slowly for conventional aircraft and too silently for helicopters. Some of the lights appeared to group up in a giant "V" formation that lingered above the city for several minutes. Many residents reported one triangle to be over a mile wide that drifted slowly over their houses blocking out the stars of the night sky. Other reports indicated the craft were spotted flying away from Phoenix as far away as Las Vegas, Nevada and Los Angeles, California.

    An official report made by the Air Force about the incident concluded that the military had been testing flares launched from conventional aircraft during that time. Eyewitnesses confirmed military jets were scrambled from nearby Luke Air Force Base, but instead of launching flares, they were seen chasing after some of the objects.

    The next few nights, in an attempt to recreate the incident, local pilots flew prop-planes over the city in a "V" formation, but the sounds of their engines were easily heard. The original lights made no sound. Flares were also deployed above Phoenix."====http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_triangle_(UFO)
     
    Last edited: Dec 8, 2014
  10. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Lol, ok. Sorry, but as one of the True Believers, you aren't one of the people who needs convincing and the people who need to be convinced are the ones who set the burden of proof for convincing them.
    Like Darren Wilson? Sorry, but no, eyewitness accounts are about the worst type of evidence. Physical evidence is the best. Photo/video/sound would be next. Again, there is nothing to argue about here: you're a True Believer so your opinions don't matter. Those of us who need to be convinced are the ones who get to set the burden of proof.
     
  11. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    You're the one yet to convince us that hundreds of eyewitnesses simultaneously made up the same details about the same sighting on the same night. Did they retract their stories? Has any pilots come forward claiming they were just randomly flying in formation that night for the hell of it, shining their landing lights down on the city? We're still waiting...What's the problem? Are you making claims you have no support for?
     
  12. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Oh, see that's your misunderstanding again: I'm not here to convince anyone of anything. This is your thread, so the only one with a burden of proof here is you.
    No, that's you. You're the one with the claims; there is no need for a counter-claim.
     
  13. zgmc Registered Senior Member

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    Can anyone say, beyond any doubt, what was seen that night?
     
  14. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    16,699
    Actually this is James' thread. He's making the claims they were aircraft in formation. He's also saying all the eyewitnesses, the hundred or so of them, are lying just to get on the news. Or are misremembering it. Or only hallucinated a solid craft between the lights that blacked out the stars. These are positive claims that should be substantiated.

    If you're not claiming the eyewitnesses made up the details, what are YOU claiming?
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2014
  15. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Nope.
     
  16. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    5,051
    My mistake: it is your topic he started this thread to discuss. Still doesn't change your burden of proof.
    No he didn't.
    No, they aren't/he didn't. Your misunderstanding of how burden of proof works with regard to eyewitness accounts does not constitute a claim on his part.
    My judgement of your claim is the same as James's:
    Lotta nothing.
     
  17. zgmc Registered Senior Member

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    831
    There are a lot of witnesses to this one. I don't think that it should be dismissed as easily as some of you would like. I am skeptical, but I am also open to the possibility that something is happening. Even the former gov. admits to seeing something..

     
  18. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    I post this 28 minute video as support for the existence of the black triangle ufo. I already posted separate threads on the same phenomena as witnessed in Belgium from 1980-1995 and in Hudson Valley NY. Take a look at this. This is yet another very clear and convincing instance of eyewitness accounts, this time by police officers, of the same phenomenon of a triangular craft as large as a football field, that is silent, that is equipped with bright lights, and that can move at speeds exceeding anything we have. The original dispatch audio is included. They keep saying "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence." But it turns out, when it comes to this sort of craft, it would be more extraordinary if it DIDN'T exist given all the sightings of it over the past 3 decades.

     

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    Last edited: Dec 9, 2014
  19. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    There were hundreds of eyewitnesses who saw lights (in the second event, the one that occurred at around 10pm). However it wasn't really extraordinary. At all. And it was explained and verified as being flares used by the National Guard, verified by a pilot who flew in that training mission and gave the exact location of where it was, which was consistent with what eyewitnesses saw that night (see below in Part II).

    In regards to those hundreds of eyewitnesses, what did they want to see in those lights? What did they want them to be? I am not doubting that they saw them. But I think the hype of wanting them to be out-worldly kind of outshone the more mundane reality of it.

    During the Phoenix event, numerous still photographs and videotapes were made, distinctly showing a series of lights appearing at a regular interval, remaining illuminated for several moments and then going out. These images have been repeatedly aired by documentary television channels such as the Discovery Channel and the History Channel as part of their UFO documentary programming.

    The most frequently seen sequence shows what appears to be an arc of lights appearing one by one, then going out one by one. UFO advocates claim that these images show that the lights were some form of "running light" or other aircraft illumination along the leading edge of a large craft — estimated to be as large as a mile (1.6 km) in diameter — hovering over the city of Phoenix. Other similar sequences reportedly taken over a half hour period show differing numbers of lights in a V or arrowhead array. Thousands of witnesses throughout Arizona also reported a silent, mile wide V or boomerang shaped craft with varying numbers of huge orbs. A significant number of witnesses reported that the craft was silently gliding directly overhead at low altitude. The first-hand witnesses consistently reported that the lights appeared as "canisters of swimming light", while the underbelly of the craft was undulating "like looking through water".[15] However, skeptics claim that the video is evidence that mountains not visible at night partially obstructed views from certain angles, thereby bolstering the claim that the lights were more distant than UFO advocates claim.[16]

    UFO advocate Jim Dilettoso claimed to have performed "spectral analysis" of photographs and video imagery that proved the lights could not have been produced by a man-made source. Dilettoso claimed to have used software called "Image Pro Plus" (exact version unknown) to determine the amount of red, green and blue in the various photographic and video images and construct histograms of the data, which were then compared to several photographs known to be of flares. Several sources have pointed out, however, that it is impossible to determine the spectral signature of a light source based solely on photographic or video imagery, as film and electronics inherently alter the spectral signature of a light source by shifting hue in the visible spectrum, and experts in spectroscopy have dismissed his claims as being scientifically invalid.[16][17] Normal photographic equipment also eliminates light outside the visible spectrum — e.g., infrared and ultraviolet — that would be necessary for a complete spectral analysis. The maker of "Image Pro Plus", Media Cybernetic, has stated that its software is incapable of performing spectroscopic analysis.[16]

    Cognitech, an independent video laboratory, superimposed video imagery taken of the Phoenix Lights onto video imagery it shot during daytime from the same location. In the composite image, the lights are seen to extinguish at the moment they reach the Estrella mountain range, which is visible in the daytime, but invisible in the footage shot at night. A broadcast by local Fox Broadcasting Company affiliate KSAZ-TV claimed to have performed a similar test that showed the lights were in front of the mountain range and suggested that the Cognitech data might have been altered. Dr. Paul Scowen, visiting professor of Astronomy at Arizona State University, performed a third analysis using daytime imagery overlaid with video shot of the lights and his findings were consistent with Cognitech. The Phoenix New Times subsequently reported the television station had simply overlaid two video tracks on a video editing machine without using a computer to match the zoom and scale of the two images.[16]


    So who should be believed? Which study carries more weight? The UFO advocate who performed a "spectral analysis" (sounds fancy, doesn't it? Makes it sound all professional) using a software version not known to anyone but himself. His whole study sounded so out there, made it seem so real. The reality is that the software he used is not capable of the type of analysis he claimed to have performed on lights caught on people's cameras and video cameras. Or the more boring tests carried out by independent sources and scientists?

    More mundane studies and tests by scientists support that the lights, the great V shape that everyone was so surprised about, actually matched up with the National Guard who flew in formation and were using flares. And how boring that sounds, huh? There's no zing to it. It's just.. So Earthly. Not interesting at all. And it may not have been what people wanted it to be. And that is the issue. People wanted it to be one and not the other. So we get people like Dilettoso and sites like your 'dudeman' website, who are simply giving people what they want it to be, by providing a viewpoint that is slanted to being what people want to read. It's like when ultra-right conservatives read Fox News, for example, or listen to Rush Limbaugh. They aren't listening to them and believing it because they want the truth. They are listening and watching them because those people tell them a version of reality that fits their personal beliefs and viewpoints. And the same goes to the left. Sometimes, the truth is just too boring and mundane and people would rather believe it is aliens.
     
  20. Bells Staff Member

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    24,270
    Part II

    I will get to your source in a second.. Firstly I want to discuss the second so called event.

    The second "event" or the one that occurred later that night that was witnessed by so many people, was explained as being flares from the nearby air force base.

    The second event was the set of nine lights appearing to "hover" over the city of Phoenix at around 10 pm. The second event has been more thoroughly covered by the media, due in part to the numerous video images taken of the lights. This was also observed by numerous people who may have thought they were seeing the same lights as those reported earlier.

    The U.S. Air Force explained the second event as slow-falling, long-burning LUU-2B/B illumination flares dropped by a flight of four A-10 Warthog aircraft on a training exercise at the Barry Goldwater Range at Luke Air Force Base. According to this explanation, the flares would have been visible in Phoenix and appeared to hover due to rising heat from the burning flares creating a "balloon" effect on their parachutes, which slowed the descent.[20] The lights then appeared to wink out as they fell behind the Sierra Estrella, a mountain range to the southwest of Phoenix.

    A Maryland Air National Guard pilot, Lt. Col. Ed Jones, responding to a March 2007 media query, confirmed that he had flown one of the aircraft in the formation that dropped flares on the night in question.[20] The squadron to which he belonged was in fact at Davis-Monthan AFB, Arizona on a training exercise at the time and flew training sorties to the Barry Goldwater Range on the night in question, according to the Maryland Air National Guard. A history of the Maryland Air National Guard published in 2000 asserted that the squadron, the 104th Fighter Squadron, was responsible for the incident.[21] The first reports that members of the Maryland Air National Guard were responsible for the incident were published in The Arizona Republic newspaper in July 1997.[22]

    Military flares[23][24] such as these can be seen from hundreds of miles given ideal environmental conditions. Later comparisons with known military flare drops were reported on local television stations, showing similarities between the known military flare drops and the Phoenix Lights.[4][5] An analysis of the luminosity of LUU-2B/B illumination flares, the type which would have been in use by A-10 aircraft at the time, determined that the luminosity of such flares at a range of approximately 50–70 miles would fall well within the range of the lights viewed from Phoenix.[17]

    Dr. Bruce Maccabee did an extensive triangulation of the four videotapes, determining that the objects were near or over the Goldwater Proving Grounds.[25] Page 5 of Dr. Maccabee's analysis refers to Bill Hamilton and Tom King's sighting position at Steve Blonder's home. Blonder has worked with Dr. Maccabee to fully include his sighting position in the triangulation report. Maccabee has also refined three other sighting positions and lines of sight in 2012

    So we can pretty much rule that out.

    The first so called "event"..

    I had a read of the site you just linked. To be honest with you, I think perhaps you need to find better sources. Because the site you linked, under the "siriusly" menu from its front page had a very interesting (if not somewhat bizarre) discussion about the "face on Mars". Suffice to say, the site appears to be giving readers what they want to read. And that is inherently bad in and of itself. Because it slants the stories to reflect what they personally believe. Reality can sometimes just be too boring and it does not reflect what people want it to be, like the site you linked. They weren't interested in what it could be. Only in what they wanted it to be. After all, there is no fame, fortune or interest if it is just planes, is there?

    The first event — the "V", which appeared over northern Arizona and gradually traveled south over nearly the entire length of the state, eventually passing south of Tucson — was the apparently "wedge-shaped" object reported by then-Governor Symington and many others. This event started at about 20:15 MST over the Prescott area, and was seen south of Tucson by about 20:45 MST.


    Proponents of two separate events propose that the first event still has no provable explanation, but that some evidence exists that the lights were in fact airplanes. According to an article by reporter Janet Gonzales that appeared in the Phoenix New Times, videotape of the v shape shows the lights moving as separate entities, not as a single object; a phenomenon known as illusory contours can cause the human eye to see unconnected lines or dots as forming a single shape.

    Mitch Stanley, an amateur astronomer, observed high altitude lights flying in formation using a Dobsonian telescope giving 43× magnification. After observing the lights, he told his mother, who was present at the time, that the lights were aircraft.[18] According to Stanley, the lights were quite clearly individual airplanes; a companion who was with him recalled asking Stanley at the time what the lights were, and he said, "Planes". When Stanley first gave an account of his observation at the Discovery Channel Town Hall Meeting with all the witnesses there he was shouted down in his assertion that what he saw was what other witnesses saw. Some have claimed that Stanley was seeing the Maryland National Guard jets flying in formation during a routine training mission at the Barry M. Goldwater bombing range south of Phoenix. It is possible that the Phoenix Lights Vee is actually a group of planes based on the explanation of a similar sighting in South California
    .
     
  21. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    You misunderstand. I'm not dismissing it -- the witnesses certainly saw something. But the eyewitness accounts are too vague/scattered to get much of an idea of what they saw.
     
  22. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    The fact that the thumbnail for the video contains an artist's drawing shows that the authors of the video recongize the need for the photographic evidence that does not exist.
    Again: no matter how big a mound of crap you have, it will never become gold.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2014
  23. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

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    Oh I see. So while you agree there were TWO separate events that night, the first in which people saw a low flying boomerang craft flying from north to south across the city, and the second of military planes flying in formation and dropping flares over a distant mountain range, you also claim the first event WAS the second event. That doesn't make sense. For one thing, the first event happened from 8:15 to 8:45. The military otoh confirms it dropped flares at 9:30. So how long does it take a squadron of planes to fly in and drop flares? Maybe 10 minutes at most? There's no way given this time line that the first event could also be the second event. No doubt there's some witnesses that confused the flares and squadron as being a ufo, thanks to the military's attempts. But you can clearly see from the footage that those ARE flares. I knew they were the first time I saw them. They light one at a time, and then float down, and then go out in the order they were lit. Clearly NOT a craft.

    Actually the majority of people scoffed at the idea of these being a ufo and tremendous media pressure, public ridicule, and disinformation put out by the military made standing by what you saw incredibly difficult. These witnesses are just normal people living their everyday lives. There's no evidence they were "into" ufos nor "wanted" them to be there. They are simply reporting what they saw. And while some reports described only lights, a large number of others detail a large craft that blacked out the stars and flew at about 1000 feet with huge blurry lights.You can't just pick and choose which accounts to believe and which to not believe. I have no doubt that some people, including that kid with a telescope, saw the military planes flying in formation. But that's the second event, NOT the first event.
     
    Last edited: Dec 9, 2014

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