3PO is gay but not R2 he has had sex with the DS a battle droid factory and many many more things
Star Wars vs Star Trek
- Thread starter Pollux V
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Hmmm, don't seem to remeber seeing any ship ripped asunder by a subspace weapon. Much less a planet in Inssurrection. I remember the Sovereign running form it like a scared rabbit. Then again not surprising as they such fragile designs
However you assertation they would have no way to nullify it is false. Remember a hyperdrive is a dimensional spanning device. In order for smooth operations there are several other stabilzation devices about the ship. To assume that these devices would not be of use is ludicrous.
Of course assuming that any ST race would use them in defense of an occupied planet is also ludicrous.
So sayeth the wise a munificent Enterprise D.
Actually AI is any set of programming that can learn and adapt. While I will admit that cleaning droids are not sentient. One cannot however argue that they are not AI. There is of course a multitude of other droid types, many of which can learn and adapt. Even the the Trade Federation Battle droids are indeed AI's, though not particularly good one.
Can't believe you are trying ther logic this way. Watch the movies again and you can see C-3PO and r2-D2 dispaly more self awareness than Data ever has. Hell in the first movie, R2 lies outright. C-3PO attempts to hide for fear of punishment. Data has never displayed that level of sophistication
Cassidy yates may be a Federation citizen but her starship was operated outside of Federation law. It was obvious that she was operating under some other govermental regulation. Why? Becuase if it was under Federation regulation, Starfeelt would have nailed Sisko's hide to the wall as a co-conspirator when she was caught smuggling weapons.
Carol Marcus had he own ship, but the was TOS, my beefs were TNG.
Sarek and Luxwana are royalty among their particular race. Of course they had access to ships, but don't think for a moment they were private owned vessels.
Manheim might have had his own research base, but unless you saw a ship he could have been dropped off by Federation Express, which seems to be how all the colonies operate.
Both trials were not Federation trials however. They were plantetary laws that were pbroke and thius by the planets rules.
However like the trial for Data's life. He was obviously not a Federation experiment and he was not being court martialed. He was obviously sentient as they admitted him the starfleet. He had not violated any Starfleet order. Still it was handled as a court martial.
it would be easy to use a SubSpace Weapon against a SW ship. You simply detonate it on one side and have a remote drone activate it's warp core on the other. The Rift would be drawn to the Warp Field like a zipper (THIS IS CANON FROM TNG)
The SubSpace Rift in Insurrection was at LEAST a thousand times larger than the Ent-E. You know how you can tell? the Warp Core is decently large in and of itself. the Rift, when the core detonated (and it's safe to say that occurs NEAR or IN the rift) was at LEAST a thousand times the size of said core, if not tens of thousands.
That was a small subspace rift... and it was roughly the SIZE of your damned SSD's. Now think what a large one would do. Or how about the String from Generations? Imagine what would happen should your ship pass thru that.
And it's a fucking SUB-SPACE RIFT. Do you understand what that means? Being impacted by that would be like being hit by a string of event horizons while the rest of your ship remains unaffected. The gravitational eddies would shear even a planet apart by simply physical tidal forces!
You want to deny it? Provide PROOF. Proof that I am right is shown in one of the TNG episodes (can't remember it atm) and in Insurrection.
Or better still- Kremlin Chroniton torpedos. Those would SERIOUSLY ruin your day because they aren't even in phase with this reality! Shields or no, they would emerge under your shields and rend your hull as easily (or even easier) than that asteroid impact did! Or did you forget that?
I have responded in quotes.
this assuming you have such a tactic set up, that the rift is attracted to the smaller warp core rather than your larger signature, and that you would use said weapon in defense of a planet.
Okay, so you are going to make this argument. From the visuals of the movie the Rift was anywhere fromfive to ten times the length of the Enterprise E and it was not even half as wide. At best this is five times the lenght/width of the vessel, not a thousand times the size
As for the warp core it is 5 meter diameter by 20 meters roughtly. Perhaps as much as 5 meters by 30 meters. A thousand of these would fit in a rectangle 50 meters byt 50 meters by 300 meters at the largest.
They said nothing about it being a small subspace rift. Also 3.5 kilometer to 7 kilometers in length is not anywhere near 17-18 kilometers in length and don't get me started on the width.
Really and you know this how. They did not say such in the movies. besides it would be no worse than the suddently acceleration to millions of times the speed of light, which the ship does without even groaning.
As for tearing part a planet we did not see the rip do that. In fact we have no data on even what it does to a starship.
You have no proof. At no point does a Subspace tear destroy a vessel. Even the one the scientist had made to make her point about warp. The Enterprise was not destroyed and that one was several million miles across.
Kremin Chroniton torpedoes. They may eeffect ST type shields buyt you have no proof they do so with SW style shields which eveone admits are different.
Show me where a starship mechanic is programmed for fear, bravado, worry, compassion, or even frustration. Obviously R2-D2 has gone beyond any level of his programming. Data's emotions however are part of his programming. I admit the EMH doctor is on the same level as C-3PO, mainly becuase they are programmed with some human type responses. But an astromech is not programmed with any type of social skills.
Sisko was the CO of the station where Yates made frequent trips. As such he would be the person responsible for all secuirity and customs checks and reports on her ship, if she was subject to federation controls. And you can't tell me they don't exist as obviously they do for other vessels. Which means he would assume to be collaborating with her when it is discovered she was smuggling weapons. now if she operatied outside of federation control, as in under another governmental license, he would not be in charge of secuirity and customs regarding that ship. It's simple logic really.
Sarek is the son of T'pau, correct? As in Princess T'pau. As in that would make Sarek royalty. Royalty can be ambassadors. As for you accusations of size. A larger ship mean you have a grander entrance. Even Vulcans are big on ceremony.
They sure knew how to treat him when he applied to the Academy. Obviously only sentients had passed that way before.
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The wise and munificent Enterprise-D who's a living starship that did AI in his degree. They are NOT AI. None of them (drones other than following). C3PO and R2D2 have only shown evidence of fuzzy logic. This does not make them the true neural network that the EMH is built on, or the 'positronic' neural network that is Data's brain.
- R2D2 lying is simply evidence of fuzzy logic...lying is not a function of self awareness or sentience, it is simply false data.
- C3PO was following a self preservation subroutine, as a diplomatic drone he has been programmed to avoid combat, and his colourful and extensive language database facilitates speech inflections. This is stated by C3PO himself on many an ocassion where he can't keep his flashing LED trap shut.
- May I also point out that automaton construction in Wars is rubbish at best, since C3PO's brain was unable to control the war droid's body he was accidentally attached to in Episode I. So much for intelligence ay TW?
Data has an emotion chip. Data has been genuinely afraid of being shot, angered by the Borg and sorrowful and accepting of dying and sacrificing himself for his friends (the ultimate human sacrifice).
Before his emotion chip, STTNG: The Defector - Data is in command of the USS Sutherland and without his emotion chip, disobeys Picard, yells in frustration at his first officer and saves the day by finding four cloaked Warbirds. Clear signs of advancement. I can quote many episodes where Data shows initiative far beyond a mere automaton, before his emotion chip if you like. It'll be a litany, so I won't do it now.
Get a grip TW.
Absolute rubbish. Captain Sisko made the arrest when he discovered that Cassidy was smuggling weapons. He had much evidence and alibi that he had no clue that smuggling was going on. By your logic every FBI agent should be arrested as co-conspirators to every case they investigate. What is speaking here is your own belief that the Federation is a puppet democracy.
You never specified, and TOS episodes are also canon. If one can privately own a ship in TOS, it is logical that (unless stated otherwise) Federation citizens can own their own ships in the future.
Sarek is not royalty, he's only an ambassador. Lwaxana has ceremonial titles only. Lwaxan's ship is clearly private owned, it is stated that "Lwaxana's ship" has arrived from Betazed on one episode, and Mr. Homm (her butler) is shown piloting.
Further, you cannot say that they were not private owned. Matter of fact it is more reasonable to assume that if you think they're royalty, their ships should be privately owned.
Even further, 'royalty' are STILL Federation citizens. You cannot exclude them from this argument simply because they happen to have pull within their own governments.
True, but you'd think that someone who has money for his own research bases (one was blown up) would have at least one transport. The Memory Alpha Wik stated that the transport was Manheim's but it is a Wik and not really canon, I will have to re-watch the 'sode myself.
It is significant however that he owns his own space base.
Dude, they were not Starfleet trials. Even Kirk when he was put on trial did not have a jury. The best he got was to "face his accusor" which happens in all trials.
However, the Wesley case was on a Federation planet, THUS must be considered a Federation trial...all Federation citizens must comply with the sovereignty laws of a Federation world. (actually this applies even to non Federation worlds).
PS...Even in our current democracy, military trials do not convene a jury. Get over yourself.
It was not a court martial. It was a judiciary hearing. ALL military cases are presided over by the a Judge Advocate General (watch TV a little more) or failing the presence of that officer or a representative of that office, an appropriate tribunal of high ranking officers (Admirals, political officials etc).
There is a big difference between Starfleet trials and Federation trials, even if we've never seen a human citizen trial, we in mere 2007 know that military hearings are much different.
Also bear in mind that you yourself constantly berate people for using Wars weaknesses claiming that they're "plot devices" to move the story along. I put it to that this is one such instance. Star Trek is a science fiction show, not a legal show, therefore focus should not be on an entire legal proceding. Starfleet (military) procedings are much shorter, and thus we can accept judicial hearings as plot devices in the event that a legal matter arises, in order to demonstrate the overriding moral of the episode story.
You are labouring under a misapprehension.
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I know it's an uphill battle Saquist 
whatcha gonna do?
whatcha gonna do?Hellblade8
Valued Senior Member
You dumbass, do you have any idea what would have happened if that ship had touched that rift? Allow me to explain to level with you. Remember how the phaser kinda does that strange vaporizing effect? Its because its shunting the matter into sub-space, likely in very, very small pieces. A tear in sub-space means that there is a hole between the two realms. Think of sub-space as the Star Trek version of the shadow plane from D&D. Now, think of a sub-space tear as a messy version of a phaser. Except much large with a radius effect.
This is a no-limits fallacy. Just because they have a way to survive in other dimensions does not mean that it will keep the sub-space tear from ripping them apart.
I agree here, sub-space weapons damage sub-space. But more so because it'd be a waste of energy. It would be akin to H-Bombing a medival castle.
Hellblade8
Valued Senior Member
On the subject of AI. The Federation does have AI, that had AI waaaay back in the day of Kirk. However, given how poorly the UFP viewed AI doing work that they prefer to do themselves, they ignored developing the technology. Data is a specific case of Dr. Soong wanting to make a android of such complication of it being a person. His first succesful experiment was B-4, who was intelligent and was capable of choice and thought. Lore came next, and was incredibely sophisticated, however, he seemed to be off balance, with selfish wants and needs. Data came next, who of course Soong gave no emotions to because the colonists thought Lore himself was too human. Data later created a daughter who at one point shut down after a week or so. When we meet Data's 'mother', we discover that she too is an android like Data, but is programmed to fool most sensors, transporters, and to simulate all the colors of pain, joy, and pleasure. All forms of emotions. She was also designed to terminate at a said point. She explained that the reason Data's daughter died was because positronic brains are complex and after a week or so most will collapse, but afterwards are very stable if they manage to make it. Its also no secret that the Daystrom Institute is attempting to make a Soong type android as well, though even with assistance they too are having trouble.
The Doctor from Voyager is an example of AI, highly advanced AI at that, though its in part based on the personality of the creator. Granted that, the program is able to advance in and of itself. In fact, with the new mobile emitters, one could say that these holograms are far more advanced than any AI robot that was ever thought of in sci-fi.
The Doctor from Voyager is an example of AI, highly advanced AI at that, though its in part based on the personality of the creator. Granted that, the program is able to advance in and of itself. In fact, with the new mobile emitters, one could say that these holograms are far more advanced than any AI robot that was ever thought of in sci-fi.
TW...I must point out that you use your arguments very one-sidedly. By this I mean that you do not consider that which is good for the goose is also good for the gander.
You posed a limit on Q (a canon god) because the best thing you saw him do in your opinion was move a moon (I've listed far better achievements). Yet still you thought breathing in a hostile atmosphere proved "limitless" Jedi powers.
To further expound:
You think that Enterprise E would not survive a subspace rip because the ship is comparitively small and fragile (in your opinion), yet you seem to think that because subspace rips never occured in SW, ISDs etc are automatically immune. While this can't be proven one way or the other, it should be clear that a theoretical rip in 'space-dimensional reality' will not be stopped by any matter whatsoever.
NOW...laser based weapons have almost all been outmoded in the Trek universe. Even the Borg must eliminate shields to use their cutting laser. By the same token that you deny the certainty that a subspace rip will tear apart any Wars ship, you simply cannot prove (suggested power levels or otherwise) that any laser based weapon can harm any Trek universe shielded ship simply because it has never been done!
Do you understand TW? Your own arguments have come back to bite you. If you do not accept the effect of subspace infarctions because there is no SW premise, we (I'm being bold here and speaking for the regular Trekkie posters) cannot accept the effect of any laser based weapons by the similar notion that there is no ST premise. (PS Geordi, Belanna and Janeway have all said their ships would not survive a subspace tear)
You consistently berate everyone for premise proof, when your own material lacks the same.
You posed a limit on Q (a canon god) because the best thing you saw him do in your opinion was move a moon (I've listed far better achievements). Yet still you thought breathing in a hostile atmosphere proved "limitless" Jedi powers.
To further expound:
You think that Enterprise E would not survive a subspace rip because the ship is comparitively small and fragile (in your opinion), yet you seem to think that because subspace rips never occured in SW, ISDs etc are automatically immune. While this can't be proven one way or the other, it should be clear that a theoretical rip in 'space-dimensional reality' will not be stopped by any matter whatsoever.
NOW...laser based weapons have almost all been outmoded in the Trek universe. Even the Borg must eliminate shields to use their cutting laser. By the same token that you deny the certainty that a subspace rip will tear apart any Wars ship, you simply cannot prove (suggested power levels or otherwise) that any laser based weapon can harm any Trek universe shielded ship simply because it has never been done!
Do you understand TW? Your own arguments have come back to bite you. If you do not accept the effect of subspace infarctions because there is no SW premise, we (I'm being bold here and speaking for the regular Trekkie posters) cannot accept the effect of any laser based weapons by the similar notion that there is no ST premise. (PS Geordi, Belanna and Janeway have all said their ships would not survive a subspace tear)
You consistently berate everyone for premise proof, when your own material lacks the same.
Are you so sure? The inactive warp drive of the Enterprise E only escaped attetion from the Vulcan's becuase it was fortutitously in a blindspot. And it that was true could the Enterprise have prepared a fired a torpedo at warp speed to lure the rip away? You have no proof of this little theory or yours.
Viewscreen does not mean shit as the can magnify or de magnify anything. The outside the ship visuals could and 3.5 km to 7 km is huge, dumbass.
Here you go again. You are assuming this Subspace tear has the same effect as the Nexus, which is a Temporal tear. We have no evidence that this weapon would even destroy a federation ship. They could have been running from it becuase, well hell they were already fighting two vessels. Adding in some damage from a Tear would just make life hell.
And this would be different than a suddenly jump to Hyperspace how. After all the front part of the ship does leave normal space before the rest. Somehow the vessel stays intact.
So using Warp in a subspace rip destroyed the vessel? You aren't making any sense here. You would have to produce a episode name. You also woulf have to prove all subspace tears are identical to that one. Which given other instances is not the case.
Dude you are insane, by effect, I meant pass through the shields. Of course it really shouldn't matter as the Torpedoes in question were and offshoot of the weapon and threfore never existed thanks to your canon. Watch and learn from your elders.
By the way if you remeber the Torpedoes in question only skipped over standard ST type shields. It did not take long for the crew to find aout about an adjustment that nullified this piercing effect. Though they are still nasty torpedoes. But obviously they do not pierce all shields.
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Just becuase you have no clue what an actual AI is, does not give you a pass in this argument. While i agree that a cleaning drone is not sentient, it is an AI, just like the robots we build today, like the one that learned to climb stairs. You are confusing Self aware with AI.
Incorrect. He outright lied to Luke about the hologram. C-3PO actually admonishes him to trust Luke.
He has been programmed to avoid combat, yes, but not his owners. Why would a droid hide when a fellow droid ran away? As for his programming there are times he moves beyond it. In A New Hope, he is actually angry at R2-D2 and later blames him for his predicament and hopes he fairs no better. If he is not self aware why was he speaking to himself.
Actually the head area on the Battledroid is so small that it is probably just a sensor cluster and dedicated targeting SPU and partial speach center. The main brain would be much safer in the main body. Conversely the C-3PO droid probably has to use a processor in the head area that handles the cognitive thinking and a processor in the body for movement.
Yes, he does, and this was programmed by his designer. So obviously any emotions felt are a direct result of programming. You do not hear of any emotion chip in SW, do you?
So he disobeyed and order. he was programmed to adapt and in this the greater orders of catch the Romulans foreshadowed any subsequent orders. yes he yelled at an exec, which he would have learned in basic psychology is a effective, if abusive way to make the other party back off. However non of that relied on emotion and all focused on his programming to learn, adapt and succeed. He was never programmed to obey orders.
Actually he arrested her as she passed therough DS9 space. He did not have the authority to track her down. And you are right it was as soon as he had the evidence. But my logic was not that every FBI agent would be arrest as co-conspirators in every case they investigate. More like every customs official that has a relationship with the head of a shipping company should be investigated if their bed partner is smuggling drugs.
I tolod you my beef was with TNG, TOS the Federation was still a democracy. In TNG it has turned into a bigbriother police state.
Sarek is too royalty, or did you not get that? Of course not you'd have to actually pay attention. He isn't a direct heir, hell he might not even be in the top fifty but he is a Royal. And yes Royals can be Ambassadors. As to Luwxana, what would you call the ship at the personal desposal to a royal?
Does the Queen or England own her Yachts, no the British government does. however it is not absurd. Everytime you see an individual with a ship, in TNG, they are either a non Federation Alien. Or a human that operates their ship mostly outside the Federation.
Now I am not saying that this is Law in the Federation, It just might be economics. After all all major industry in the federation is nationalized as of TNG. The only Corporations you hear of are under Ferengi or other nations rules.
they might be federation citizen, but they do have pull and use of the limited defense fleets each planet is allowed. Now like i said iabove it might be entirely economical. Still any nation that every major industry is nationalized is...well at least not a free Economy.
Wiki is unrelieable to say the least. And who says he had the money to buy a ship. there are things in this world a Billionaire has the money to buy, but can't just becuase the industry is controlled form above.
They were starfleet affliliates. Are you saying that you would not get a jury in Rhode Island if it was a state trial and not a Federal Trial.
Actually the first time he was tried was definately not a Federation world. It was inside the Federation, but not a signatory.
Actually some military trials do have juries. After all you can be tried for something that is not a military crime but is a civillian crime. Get over yourself.
A Court martial or Judiciary hearing should only be used when there is a crime against the military. That is pretty much the way it goes in a democracy. Data had to have been declared a sentient being just to attend Starfleet Academy. He was also not a Federation scientific experiment. Merely the experiment of a citizen who did not use federation funds to create Data. Starfleet made no initial outlay to purchase Data. And their studies of him, were similiar to the studies of any sentient race.
However, Data was FORCED to prove in a Court martial that he was a Sentient being. Something that the past had already documented in some detail. All becuase some scientist wanted to take him apart.
Of course this does not surprise me, the Federation Council was behind the events that led to the Enterprise E defending a non native population in Insurrection. The council also was behind the decision to hand over dozens of colonized Federation worlds to the Cardassians for politicla expediency. And then advocated for the force movement of the colonists.
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