Splinter: Police Corruption vs. the Presumption of Nobility

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Captain Kremmen, Apr 6, 2014.

  1. Bells Staff Member

    It's an open forum Balerion. You respond to things that aren't addressed to you as well.. All the time.

    One day, you will not respond as though you believe everyone is against you.

    No one is saying that all police officers are all corrupt. I am saying the system itself is corrupt and those who participate in it are tainted as a result.

    You're so busy jumping up and down about what isn't actually being said that you are missing what has actually been said. And really, applying issues like racism and abused women to this as examples of why saying that the police is shit is the same thing. Straws.. Grasping.. It's not even remotely the same. It's not a stereotype when people say police are shit. The whole department is twisted. Look at Rodney King.. The other police who watched it and did nothing and said nothing. Didn't even report it. This is acceptable to you? The station that defended them? This is good? As for your domestic violence example:

    In fact, domestic violence is two-to-four times as prevalent in police officer families as it is in the general population. Yikes.

    The National Center for Women & Policing report that two studies have found that at least forty percent of police officer families experience domestic violence, in contrast to ten percent of families in the general population.

    This is scary for many reasons, but perhaps most especially because police officers have privileges and accessibility that the average citizen does not.

    Domestic violence is always a terrible crime, but victims of a police officer are particularly vulnerable because the officer who is abusing them:

    1. has a gun,
    2. knows the location of battered women's shelters, and
    3. knows how to manipulate the system to avoid penalty and/or shift blame to the victim.

    One of the most disturbing parts is that police departments often handle cases of police family violence informally; without an "official report, investigation, or even check of the victim's safety."

    This is the reality. Hence why the organisation is, to quote Tiassa, "shit".

    They protect their own.

    The final obstacle is police officers' reluctance to treat domestic violence as a crime when it is perpetrated by one of their own.​

    Their strong sense of the police family dissuades them from considering police domestic violence a criminal offense, not unlike their attitude toward civilian domestic violence twenty years ago. Victims of police officers not only challenge the image of the personal family, they challenge the concept of the police family as well.

    When domestic violence occurs in a police home, police departments choose to keep the incident a family secret and deal with it in-house. By treating the crime of domestic battery as a private matter or a marital problem, police departments regress to the approach of twenty years ago. The department hesitates to interfere in an employee's private life, and is extremely uncomfortable with the legal requirement to treat the offending officer like a common criminal. The victim, not the abuser, is identified as the traitor. The forces gather to silence her and to protect him.

    Misuse of Institutional Power

    Police abusers differ from other abusers only in that they are tougher and more dangerous. They have training, a badge, a gun and the weight of the police culture behind them. Smart police do not hit, slap, kick, or choke their partners. It is not necessary. They exercise their power and control by intimidating, isolating and terrifying the victim. These forms of abuse need to be addressed when the perpetrator is an officer. They are misuses of institutional power — the badge, the gun, the support of the department — and there is the constant threat that he will use them all against her.

    Police are trained to walk in and take control of any situation. Their mere presence, voice and stance are used to establish their authority. They learn a full range of information-gathering techniques ranging from interviewing and interrogating to vigilant surveillance. The proficient use of these investigative techniques requires the ability to be manipulative and deceptive.

    Training includes much instruction on the use of escalating degrees of force and the use of deadly force. The use of force by a police officer is a serious matter and force is to be used only when necessary to enforce his position of authority. Police know which situations justify the use of force and how to adequately explain it should they have to defend their actions in a court of law.

    Tactics of Abuse

    The characteristics and skills developed in training to produce competent officers are those that, when used in an intimate relationship, make police officers the most dangerous abusers.​

    The problem occurs when the officer walks through the front door of his home with the same mind-set he has in his professional life. His sense of entitlement to authority and respect from civilians carries over to his intimate partner. He cannot conceive of an egalitarian relationship. He must always be dominant and in control. Even a minor disagreement is perceived as a challenge to his authority which he will not tolerate. He uses his many finely honed skills and tactics to impress upon the victim that he has total control over her life.

    Police officers use professional skills, police equipment, and the mobility of the job to keep their partners under surveillance. They run license plates of her friends and have access to information about anyone with whom she associates. They follow in their squad cars, park their squads or unmarked cars outside the victim's home for hours on end. They install recording devices in the victim's home or on her telephone. They use binoculars to observe the victim's activities from a distance. These methods serve as a constant reminder to the victim that she is always within the abuser's reach. He comes to be seen as omniscient and omnipotent, almost god-like.

    The abuser uses verbal intimidation and degradation to communicate to the victim that she has no power in their relationship. He uses words as weapons to embarrass and humiliate her. He screams at her as if she was a criminal on the street — his voice and face changes; he uses vile language. He tells the victim she is no better than the whores and scumbags he deals with on the job every day.

    Sometimes the verbal attack is used to provoke a confrontation for which he can then retaliate. If the verbal intimidation fails to gain control or earn the appropriate level of respect desired, the police abuser uses his training in the use of physical force. He then blames the victim for pushing him too far and making him batter her.

    Physical abuse in police-perpetrated domestic violence is extremely brutal. It includes punching, choking, kicking, choke holds and body slams as well as techniques that inflict great pain yet leave no bruises or broken bones. He may hold a loaded gun to the victim's head or a fire a shot in close proximity to her sleeping child.

    The abuser reinforces the victim's sense of isolation and hopelessness by frequently reminding her that there is no escape. He tells her she can call the police, but asks her who she thinks they will believe — him, or her? He tells her she can leave, but wherever she goes he will hunt her down. She can press charges against him, but she does not have enough evidence or credibility to make them stick. If she does manage to get him convicted, he will lose his job and then she will have no financial support for their children. He threatens that if he loses his job, she will lose her life.
    Community Response Missing

    If the victim has ever tried to escape before, she knows the truth in what he is saying. The victim knows that he will find her if she goes to a shelter because he knows or can easily find out where shelters are located. Most of her family and friends are afraid of him and afraid to be involved.

    In general, the smaller the town, the fewer options she has; and the higher his rank, the fewer people who are willing to help her.​

    If the woman calls the police, she sees that when the police arrive at the scene and learn that the alleged perpetrator is a police officer, a shift takes place. The responding officers are now responding not to the victim of a crime, but to an officer in need.

    Because most police departments do not have a policy addressing police-perpetrated domestic violence, the responding officers, who are the abuser's colleagues, use their discretion in handling the call. The responding officers are likely to discourage the victim from signing a complaint. They urge her to consider his career, to think about all the good things they share, to think about their kids. They assure her that he's a good man and a good police officer, that he's just under a lot of stress. They promise to talk to him off the record and invoke the code of silence. The responding officers do not inform their superiors and life goes on, for the abuser, as if nothing ever happened.

    This kind of crap is rampant and common. It is the norm. The blue wall. They are above the law. Police perpetrated domestic violence victims can't even report the crime for fear of their lives and because they know they will just be ignored and made into the perpetrator. This is the reality of the blue wall.

    Who is to blame here? Who creates this kind of culture where a cop beating his spouse gets a free pass and no one will do anything to stop him and instead, blames his wife? Those who know this is going on and see it and hide and protect him because he's one of them, a cop, what are they? This is what it's like Balerion. This is the reality. So what are they? What are those who willingly and openly take part in this kind of culture? Good cops?

    So perhaps next time, when you are going to make wild comparisons, you should do some reading and see just how wrong you are.
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  3. Balerion Banned Banned

    Try again, Bells. I don't care that you responded to that post, I care that you responded as if it were meant for you. Can you see the difference?

    Spare me the act, Bells.

    Tiassa did. He said that, at the least, every cop has lied on an official report.

    I don't think that's fair to say.

    Your inability to grasp the concept of analogy is troubling. It's not doubt intentional, so it's not troubling in the sense of "How could an adult human beng not understand that?" but instead in a sense of "How can this person look themselves in the mirror?"

    Yes it is. That's exactly what it is.

    1. a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.

    One event 20 years ago by a few police officers defines all police officers? Would you then say that the later riots were representative of all ethnic minorities? Oh, right, can't say that because there's apparently some magical barrier that prevents anaologies that destroy your argument.

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    What point are you attempting to make here?

    He didn't just say the organization was shit. He said every police officer was shit. In fact, he went so far as to say this disgusting piece of business:

    Endorsing the murder of all police officers? That's acceptable to you?

    Oh, right: You see where he's coming from.


    And therein lies the problem. You take an isolated incident and call it the norm. You take your own experience and assume its universality. That's extremely myopic.

    Is that like the mod wall? I mean, serious irony alert here.

    And that sucks. No one said it doesn't.

    I think maybe instead of dismissing all analogy as "wild comparisons" you use your brain to actually process the point being made, and consider a change in your position. I mean, look, I get it; I'm asking you to be an entirely different person than you are. I know I'm fighting a losing battle against militants. But you never know. Maybe one of these days you'll have a moment of clarity and realize how bloody absurd you sound sometimes.
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  5. Bells Staff Member

    It is sadly not isolated. 40% in cases of domestic violence, for example, is not an isolated issue. Cases of targeting blacks and the sheer disproportionate black representation within the criminal justice system is not an isolated incident. It is the norm. And it is protected within the system. It's guarded and defended and worse, usually denied until proof is released and they are forced to admit it.

    It is only dealt with after it comes to light in the public. Have you ever seen a police department show video's of police brutality before the media breaks the story and legally forces them to? Have police chiefs ever outed their violent and abusive officers before it becomes known to the public? There is only one that we know of... What a shame his colleague is not cut of the same cloth..

    They know what goes on.. Just as they knew and released video of a police officer throwing a football with a kid in the street.. But they don't know when police officers beat people up and abuse their power and/or ignore and intimidate the wives of their fellow officers who have and are suffering domestic violence in the home?

    They clam up. They literally retreat and support each other. They are above the law.

    Those who know about it - and they know it's going on - and remain silent and do nothing, they are also complicit. I'm not going to say all police officers are shit. Many are and the system along with them is crap. And behaviour that should result in dismissal is now protected and any who out it are removed. You don't snitch on your fellow officers.

    What I will say is that the LEO culture is shit. To me that is the difference. The culture itself needs to change. Because it is shit. It is too insular, too isolated, sees itself too far above the law and thus, they can do whatever they want.

    Honestly, you get angry at the smallest things while ignoring the bigger picture.
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  7. Balerion Banned Banned

    Demonizing a group is not a small thing. Saying that one's pacifism is the only reason they don't endorse a "wholesale slaughter" of every police officer is not a small thing. (which, ironically, calls into question said pacifism)

    Maybe if the two of you learned how to control your anger, we'd all be the better for it.
  8. Bells Staff Member


    Can you show me where or how I am angry in this thread?

    Perhaps you shouldn't attribute other people's words to me?
  9. Balerion Banned Banned

    I am pretty sure you don't know the meaning of the word.

    Can you show me where I attributed other people's words to you? I'm fairly certain I attributed Tiassa's words properly to him.

    As to your anger, it's apparent in the nature of your argument. Only angry people adopt such extreme views.
  10. Bells Staff Member

    Something .. Something.. goes here..

    I find your argument ironic. I think those of us who have had the pleasure of debating anything with you on this site will probably also get a chuckle out of your righteous anger.

    I critique LEO's because of the rampant corrupt practices employed, protected and ignored within the force around the world... And I say the culture within this environment is shit. You respond to me, quoting my post, and make a comment about Tiassa and another poster that you have not even even addressed...

    Then you accuse me of being angry. In the meantime you have raised black people and battered women - and compared Tiassa's comments to the stereotyping of black people and battered women... While ignoring that black people are more often then not victimised by the police and battered women who are abused by police officers who are too afraid and unable to report it and when they do, are ignored and treated worse by the police officers meant to protect them.. 40% and they get away with it because they are cops. And no one does a single thing about it because if they do, then they become snitches and end up losing their jobs or are blacklisted. It's the culture of silence.

    So you can call me angry as much as you want. If that is what makes you feel better, then knock yourself out.

    Everyone else who isn't reacting just for the sake of reacting understands what I am talking about.
  11. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

    Notes on How Things Seem to Go Around Here

    A particular routine we have up here; I've actually watched this process play out and heard the legal advice given.

    Suspect is stopped for suspicion of DUI. There is no video camera in the car while a State Patrol trooper trains a cadet. The only record of what takes place is the police record.

    The police remove the suspect to a police station, where the goings-on are recorded on security tape.

    By state law, DUI is a night in jail, as well. There are security cameras all over the jail facility.

    The incident report pertains to all three sites.

    The defendant is of course furious because while the report is accurate that he was disgusted with the police, the encounter site record is incomplete and out of order. Okay, so we're stuck. Equal protection under the law says the cop wins.

    But the second site is also a spotty description with serious errors and omissions. The officer does not collect the video as corroborating evidence.

    The third site narrative, according to the defendant, is entirely inaccurate. The officer does not collect the video as corroborating evidence.

    By the time the suspect's attorney asks for the security footage, it has been routinely and bureaucrtically erased.

    It's not even a dirty secret. The courts do not demand this corroborating evidence, despite the fact that if a private citizen destroyed footage of an alleged crime, there would be a legal consequence to pay.

    There is evidence to corroborate or refute the police narrative. It is in custody of the state, which does not wish to present it. Thus, it is left to be routinely destroyed. To the other, if you're rich enough to have an attorney on retainer to meet you at the police station, the evidence can be preserved.

    It really does suck. You read through people's incident reports from when they were arrested, and the boilerplate language comes through, none of which needs to be corroborated, and none of which can be refuted because the word of the police is beyond reasonable doubt in our courts. You would basically need to get them to confess to the entire crime on the stand in open court in order to quash such reports.

    As to the statutes? That'll take a while; I still can't figure out the whole Department of Licensing in-house "courts" with "judges" paid by the agency.

    The internal administrative procedures of however many police departments and prosecutors' offices? I'll let you know when I figure out how to get hold of those.

    But there is this interesting case from 2010:

    A drunken street golf game with foam balls has led to a serious civil rights issue, pitting computer geeks against police practices.

    Eric Rachner, a Seattle cyber security expert and one of the golf players, wasn't satisfied when the city dismissed charges against him after a possibly illegal arrest for refusing to provide identification.

    Rachner discovered through sleuthing that police had withheld video-recorded evidence in his case.

    Rachner also hired Seattle attorney Cleveland Stockmeyer to look at his case and probably others where arrests might have been illegal or where police claimed to have destroyed valuable arrest videos that weren't, in fact, erased.

    "How many people are sitting in jail who asked for their tapes and were told no, they can't have them," says Stockmeyer. "I don't know. But I tell you we're going to freaking find out."


    The department settled; it's hard to tell what they actually found. (I have to get behind a paywall to find the nearest version of the initial complaint; there should be another one out there, somewhere—I just haven't found it.)

    In a way. The due process violation is a forfeiture by the courts to enforce the equal protection clause.

    Every few years someone in the state finally gets busted for their part, but it's just a general mill process. The public defenders aren't funded well enough to mount vigorous defenses, and thus stage procedural defenses. These episodes arise as they do specifically because someone finally screwed up badly enough. Otherwise, it's not like the authorities are going to hand over evidence of their wrongdoing in discovery. And the judges grant much presumption of reliability. And all the while these things are going on behind the scenes.

    The panel said it was a "situation screaming with irony" when Logan, the state toxicologist, ordered Gordon and lab supervisor Ed Formosa to investigate an anonymous tip to the State Patrol about the false certification of the very tests they were conducting.


    Yeah. When someone finally screws up badly enough.

    This is the world we live in. Then again, I live in the Pacific northwestern United States. I suppose I could always tell myself to cheer up, at least I'm not dealing with the Mexican police, or the Italian police, or the Russian police, or the North Korean Secret Police ....

    It's true. Things could get worse. But neither is that a ringing endorsement.

    Well pointed.

    Actually in this case I was referring less than obliquely to the Seattle Police Department. I literally mean they can get away with murder.


    Nadler, Eric. "Local computer security expert investigates police practices". Hearst Newspapers. April 20, 2010. SeattlePI.com. April 7, 2014. http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Local-computer-security-expert-investigates-887914.php

    Lasnik, Robert S. "Order Directing Entry of Judgment". Rachner et al. v. SPD et al. United States District Court Western District of Washington at Seattle. January 3, 2012. Scribd.com. April 7, 2014. http://www.scribd.com/doc/78570017/EricRachnerSettlement

    Bartley, Nancy. "Judges reject DUI breath-test results". The Seattle Times. January 31, 2008. SeattleTimes.com. April 7, 2014. http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2004155631_breathtests31m.html

    McNerthney, Casey. "Police officer assaulted near Pike Place Market". SeattlePI. February 21, 2011. SeattlePI.com. April 7, 2014. http://www.seattlepi.com/local/article/Police-officer-assaulted-near-Pike-Place-Market-1025264.php

    Pulkkinen, Levi. "Review: Birk didn’t have cause believe Williams a threat". Seattle 911. February 16, 2011. SeattlePI.com. April 7, 2014. http://blog.seattlepi.com/seattle91...k-didnt-have-cause-believe-williams-a-threat/
    Last edited: Apr 8, 2014
  12. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    Doctors make more mistakes that kill people than cops.
    They are shits too I suppose.
  13. Gremmie "Happiness is a warm gun" Valued Senior Member

    No they most certainly are not... They try to save lives... Cops just want to kill, kill, KILL... Fuck me. Meh. Just ask Tiassa and Bells... They're experts in this field.
  14. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member


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    Use dat phone again, and you've got a bullet coming your way Top Cat.
  15. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    I didn't know that you were a Foster Parent Balerion.
    That's good, but try to cut down on the battering of women.
  16. Bells Staff Member

    The doctor that butchered me and left me scarred for life.. the other one who didn't look at an ultrasound because she was going on a long weekend away, resulting in my and my son nearly dying.. The other one who told me my son had cancer when it was the flu.. I could go on..

    Is that what I said? Perhaps you shouldn't put words in my mouth?

    Let me ask you something Gremmie, what do you think of the statistics posted in this thread?

    Is the system good as it is now?

    Or is there room for vast amounts of improvement?

    Should they fire officers who beat their wives, use their position of power in society to further their own means or that of their department's financially? Should police officers feel safe to come forward instead of being fired and treated like dirt for reporting criminal behaviour amongst his/her colleagues? These are issues that leads to accusations of corruption and abuse of absolute power. They feel they are above the law. So they do it without punishment.
  17. Gremmie "Happiness is a warm gun" Valued Senior Member

    C'mon Bells... I said many times, law enforcement is flawed... There is corruption. But, to make a blanket statement that ALL LEO,'s are shit, and should be "slaughtered" is beyond fucked up. You and I have had our moments in the past... But, to jump on Tiassas LEO hating wagon, just floors me. Without LEO's you wouldn't even have a job... I was Border Patrol, not a beat cop... Tiassa didn't care, just attacked me because he can. Then you joined in... I just don't get it... We shouldn't have cops? Just street Justice?... That's what I get from Tiassa. As he stated, anyone that wears a badge should be slaughtered...

    Honestly Bells... What if I said all attorneys were scum, and should be slaughtered? You wouldn't take any offense to that? Of course you would...I dedicated my life to my job, and Tiassa calls me a lying piece of shit, that should be killed... Yeah, seems fair.
  18. Bells Staff Member

    Firstly, I clearly stated I don't agree with Tiassa's wording or argument.

    Secondly, I do think the whole system itself is the issue, ergo the system itself is bad. And because it is what it is, it does tend to attract personality types who fit into that profile. Those who try to change things and speak out are often punished for doing so. It is too insulated and withdrawn onto itself.

    Is that meant to be a joke?

    Have you failed to notice just what is said about lawyers?

    From whole websites dedicated to funnies about killing lawyers, to being one of the most hated and detested professions.. To t-shirts about killing some in my profession:

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    I have the t-shirt and Shakespear's quote in a frame....

    I actually don't. Nor would I.

    The names I have been called. The looks of revulsion people's faces when they found out what I did for a living? You think I'm going to let the fact that people hate my profession more than any other profession make me upset? I used to email those jokes around. I have Shakespear's quote framed on my desk.

    Are you suggesting that I did not dedicate my life to my job?

    I have whole websites dedicated to hating my profession and wanting all of us to die, so much so that the thought all of my profession should die is virtually an internet meme and they even have t-shirts expressing the desire to slaughter all lawyers..

    You're a cop and you are angry that some stranger on the internet called you a lying piece of shit? However did you handle it when someone said it to your face at work?

    And you're complaining about all of it to me.. a lawyer..

    I'm sorry, but are you serious?

    I mean think about it Gremmie.. You're angry and upset at a lawyer that someone hates your profession..
  19. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    If the system is as described by Tiassa, then it invites corruption.
    Police can say what they like because they don't need evidence. The real evidence can be destroyed.
    Is that a fair summary?
    Add some pressure in the form of conviction targets, and Police, being ordinary men and women, will start lying and fiddling.
    Calling them shits, and being glad when they die in the course of their duties, is coarse and deliberately offensive.
    And, not being stupid, he knows that.

    The trouble with the USA is that your Political system is rotten.
    And that rottenness spreads right through the tree.

    And you began your nation with such bright hope, and promises.
    There is a quote from one of the founding fathers about empty jails.
    I'll try to find it.
  20. Bells Staff Member

    I blame the system. This is what it breeds and encourages.

    Personally I think the whole concept needs to die a violent death, bad officers stripped of their badges and tried and the good police officers given their jobs with intensive training to make sure this level of corruption does not occur again. That blue wall of silence and protection should not exist. Police should not be seen to be above and beyond the law. Using officers as revenue raising.. What the hell were they thinking to devise such a concept? How could they ever have thought it was a good idea? Don't even get me started on the whole domestic violence, arrest quota's, the targeting of specific races and nationalities issues..

    As long as these problems exist, that level of trust will just go down. They need to clean house internationally and actually apply the law to themselves first and foremost.
  21. Gremmie "Happiness is a warm gun" Valued Senior Member

    Gotta give ya credit Bells... You definitely know how to twist and turn words...I'm actually neither angry or upset.... This is the friggen internet... I just find when some assholes wish me dead, disturbing. And, it is unsettling, when a complete stranger purports to know my mindset... Be honest here... If I made the remarks to Tiassa that he made to me, I'd be on holiday right now. If anything has me "upset" it's the blatant abuse of power shown here... The same person accuses me of abusing my power... Blatant hypocrisy... Pffft.

    ETA... Good news Tiassa, your wish will come true soon enough.
  22. Bells Staff Member


    Do you know him? Connected to him in any way?

    People wished me dead all the time. Okay. More power to them. Someone hates your profession that much? Ever ask yourself why he might? He gave more than enough hints and clues about what he has observed with the police around him..

    Nope. You wouldn't be.

    You also need to look at what he said:

    He's not wishing you dead. He just doesn't really care one way or the other.

    Now, you need to look at his experiences with the police and what he knows of the police:

    This has been his experience with LEO's. He hasn't had a positive experience.


    His argument is that just being a cop does not and should not mean automatic respect, because the institution is now so corrupt that anyone associated with it is tainted. Even you admitted that you knew it wasn't perfect. The system shouldn't be defended.

    And what he's saying now? Go up to some young black or latino kids and ask them what they think of the police. I'd hazard a guess that their experience with the police has never been positive either - especially when you look at the rates at which blacks and latino's are represented in the criminal justice system..

    Can you show me where exactly he abused his power in this thread?

    Has he issued you with a warning? Threatened you with moderation because you were a cop?

    Or is it because he relayed his experiences and uncaring attitude towards LEO's?
  23. Captain Kremmen All aboard, me Hearties! Valued Senior Member

    "It is only because I am a pacifist that I would not endorse a wholesale slaughter of those who wear the badge."
    There is a real disconnect here between the rationale and the sentiment, which makes me doubt how attached you are to pacifism.

    It is only because I am a vegetarian that I don't butcher those tasty walking lamb chops in the farmer's field.

    It is only because I am a Botanist that I don't swipe down all those Daffodils with my walking stick.

    It is only because I am a conscientious objector that I don't go to war and kill those damn Ruskies.

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