Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Captain Kremmen, Apr 6, 2014.
That would work for me.
As soon as I see someone vomiting on themselves, I am off sharpish.
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Are you calling cops dim?... I spent 19 years as an LEO... Also have three college degrees. Do you have a personal gripe with LEO's?. Sorry, I respect you Cap'n .K, but, that post bothered me greatly.
Sorry, I didn't want to upset anyone.
I'll remove it.
Thanks Captain K... I really do appreciate the retraction. Some cops are assholes, I fully acknowledge this...but, not all of us are. During my 19 years, I've always tried to be as fair as possible... Sometimes to the extreme... So, I'm sorry, when anyone makes a blanket statement about LEO's, I get butt hurt.
I assume both of you are/were in public service. Allow me to thank you for all the times you have been of assistance.
Thank you very much... It's for the most part, a thankless job.
Some are very smart people, some are dim, most are pretty average (in my experience.) In other words, they are just like most other groups out there.
I don't want to go too far on this tangent, but the standards for working in law enforcement vary wildly across this sprawling country of ours. Make no mistake, there are some places in the USA where a substantial number of them are little better than armed gangs. This is another of those facts that flies in the face of the states rights "Everything is better when regulated at the local level" types. Here in California, the most consistently trustworthy and professional organization is the California Highway Patrol. They are a large and well regulated organization, with high standards. The Eric Cartman types would never make it with them, and generally end up in the small town police forces. Some people set out to become police officers because they like the idea of being able to beat the crap out of people and get away with it. In a perfect world, these people would be weeded out before they ever got a badge, or at worst would only serve for a short time before their agenda became clear. But that's not the world we live in.
For god's sake, this guy is (was? I haven't kept up on it) a small town police chief.
So, I could be be wrong... But, you don't hold LEO' s in very high esteem ...I get it. Your pregogrative.
I did not get that at all from what billvon wrote. What he said is LEO"s run the gambit of intelligence just like the general populous they are coming from.I admire and respect the wonderful service a good officer does in his or her career of law enforcement. But post #517 is right on the money and I say this with full conviction because I have lived in small towns in the South and some of the cops down there are just vile and corrupt. Excessive force and ratcheting up situations just so they become violent is not unusual for some of these gung-ho LEO's. I personally had a run in once and I will not go into detail where the officer was hell bent on getting in my face and causing a scene for no other reason than he thought me disrespectful because I questioned his tactics of being too aggressive. He got me so pissed I ended up telling him he was acting like a Nazi, but I did say SirPlease Register or Log in to view the hidden image!
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Not at all. I think very highly of many LEO's I know. Some are average people, some are idiots. But that's true of every segment of society.
Then why regulate WMD's, since there is no way to keep people from getting Sarin or Anthrax or weapons grade uranium?
Let's say Bob killed Diane by mowing her down while he was driving drunk. Should Steve be allowed to drive drunk since he didn't kill Diane? Should he be allowed to drive without a license, or registration, or insurance? Or would requiring him to follow motor vehicle laws count as "punishing Steve for Bob's actions?"
Notes on Political Correctness
Filed and noted for the next time someone complains about political correctness.
Let us be blunt, Captain K: Police are shit.
Once upon a time, perhaps there was something noble about being a cop. But let me try a wartime analogy.
Several years ago, I listened to an NPR story about video games, of all things. While the NRA might want us to blame video games for violence, what of the U.S. Army putting out a FPS to encourage kids to enlist?
The NPR story was about the death of one young soldier who followed that route. He enlisted in the Army after playing the FPS.
The young man was assigned to the armory, where he managed and maintained weapons.
To the other, though, the civilian bosses in charge of the war made a number of serious (ahem!) "mistakes". As a result of personnel shortages, the young man with no combat experience whatsoever was either asked to volunteer or else specifically assigned to a hot patrol. He did not return alive.
When the planes hit the towers in 2001, who am I to sneer at those who rushed to enlist in their country's defense? When we invaded Iraq in 2003, there were many already in the service, and they followed their orders appropriately.
But by 2006-07, when this poor kid joined up?
No, I'm sorry. Any reasonable observer could tell that the war was (A) dishonestly justified, and (B) a disaster in motion. It is hard for me to accept the tragedy of these deaths. They enlisted to support injustice in a theatre where their government was already known to be shorting the troops.
That poor kid, however unfortunately stupid he was, signed on for this.
It's a tragedy, but I'm sorry, he should have known better to go to war. His death is his own damn fault. My condolences to his mother and the rest of his family, and I know they tried to talk him out of it, but no, the war was already bad when he signed on. Whatever else I might say about the Army and its ethics in trying to recruit juveniles to commit to war, this poor kid, this stupid kid, decided to sign his name to participate in a shitty, dishonest, useless war.
Certes, there is plenty we could say about how he came to his decision.
Let us please apply that notion to the police.
Once upon a time, perhaps, Officer O'Malley twirled his baton as he strolled through the Chicago market, tipping his hat and saying hello with that charming brogue as he passd.
I'm forty years old, man. And at no time in my life have the police, at least in the United States of America, been a respectable institution. It is only because I am a pacifist that I would not endorse a wholesale slaughter of those who wear the badge. The days of a few bad apples ruining the reputation of the bunch are over. The blue wall is in place, and the question is no longer a matter of law and justice, but one of what respect a policeman deserves. In the U.S., for instance, we are having a low-key argument about whether or not the actions of police officers should be subject to the public record. Right now, there are many metropolitan police departments succeeding in having photographic and video evidence of police brutality thrown out because police officers apparently have a right to privacy while violating the law in under color of the public trust. And in Seattle, for instance, they will literally beat people for taking pictures while they break the law. And they have the courts behind them.
So I'm sorry. Don't worry about offending anyone, sir. The police are shit, and that's the way it goes. And anyone who is offended better be able to say that they (A) are a LEO, and (B) have never committed any wrongdoing, including simple errors and omissions. After all, they have a great privilege in being commissioned to detain, remove, and even kill people. And all across our allegedly great nation, police officers, departments, and the union all complain at the prospect that those so entrusted ought to behave responsibly with that authority.
We had a really bad stretch in my corner of the world a couple years ago. It was easy to side with the police; a seemingly random drive-by shooting, a seemingly random hit against four police officers in a coffee shop, and a domestic violence call that saw an officer gravely wounded and a young girl take violent action against her father.
And we were all supposed to feel really, really bad for these guys, as if they had never, ever done anything wrong—a presupposition that flies in the face of reality.
While I'm quite certain that these individuals did nothing to warrant their deaths on those days, I cannot participate in the ritual whitewash of the police. Quite frankly, whenever a cop is killed for whatever reason, I simply remind myself that this is part of the job. They signed on for it. They have not conducted themselves honorably. They knew what they were getting into. Fuck 'em.
Wow... You're quite a piece of work. You hate everyone don't you? Unless they think like you that is. All cops are shit eh? No exceptions? Wow, you're a dick. I await my ban now, mein führer.
Don't give me that shit. It's simply significant that you have no better answer. So instead of invoking Godwin, why don't you put up a defense of police officers? You know, like the insanely stupid claim that there are cops out there who have never, and will never falsify a police report?
Come on, make the affirmative assertion. Or is it that you know you're affirming a negative that you can't prove?
Ask a cop the following question: "Have you never omitted a relevant fact from a police report?"
Any cop who says no is lying.
And here's the problem with that: It passes muster in court.
I live in a state where the police are allowed to destroy evidence that contradicts their case. Not just some of them. Not just the "bad seeds". All of them.
What say you?
Listen dude... You made a blanket statement, that all cops are shit... I spent just short of 20 years in law enforcement. Have I ever falsified a report, or destroyed evidence? The answer would be a definitive NO. Are there bad cops? Sure. Just as there are bad doctors, salesmen and so on... But to say every one who wears a badge is shit, is just assinine. You clearly have personal issues with LEO's
Your "Word" vs. Reality — No Contest
(No, seriously, dude, don't try to make your own bad decisions other people's problem. And, yes, you're asserting a falsehood. Whether that constitutes a lie? Well, maybe you believe that whatever details you included or omitted from your reports were appropriate, but that's merely your opinion.)
So you're calling me a liar then?... No such thing as an honest cop right? Just isn't possible right? And BTW, I was Federal LEO... I'm sure that doesn't matter though... Still a lying piece of shit to you. I was Border Patrol. Probably makes me an even bigger piece of shit, in your eyes... What the fuck ever dude.
Bad Boys, Bad Boys, Whatcha Gonna Do? Whatcha Gonna Do When They Know 'Bout You?
You're just like every other cop who faces that question. They won't make an affirmative assertion of their honesty, because they know they're lying. So they just get angry and say, "What the fuck ever, dude".
Nothing new, here.
You know, it is one thing when cops can admit to the corruption they experienced on the force. But even then, ninety percent will make excuses.
But there really is no redemption for those who simply won't admit to the reality of how things go in our society.
For instance, we might find someone who says, "The cops lied!" and perhaps on this occasion he might be right.
What about the next time?
Sure, the same guy says, "The cops lied!"
What if it's true?
And then ask yourself how many other people have been through such experiences.
I have a friend whose mother, father, and stepfather were all police officers. In a perverse attempt to straighten his stepson out—apparently, the idea that a young, black, American male might think the cops aren't the best is offensive to a white stepfather who happens to be a cop—the stepfather tried explaining that he's no different from other cops, that fudging details and saying things are true when they weren't is acceptable when you're enforcing the law and you know the suspect is guilty.
Of the cops I've known personally over the years, none would disagree. You're the first.
What's interesting about that is that these people don't protest people's descriptions of police corruption; they simply protest the characterization of such behavior as corruption.
That is to say, Rick's explanation to his stepson was, Sure, I omit details that might let bad people get off, but every cop does that, and it's the right thing to do.
Funny that. Rick never appreciated when anyone else lied to him.
Like I said, I live in a state where the police are allowed to destroy evidence that contradicts their case. Whatever else you want to say in defense of such a racket is to your own discredit. But guess what? As a practical matter, it means that no law enforcement officer can be trusted.
And that they did to themselves.
Separate names with a comma.