Proof of the existence of God

As atheist, I do not discriminate against "believers". I judge people by their actions.
So far, belief in God has not been an unqualified success in action. History is witness to that.

Indeed - belief in God (or personal deity of choice) has lead peoples of all nations to commit unspeakable crimes... but the same could be said for the belief in just about anything (wealth, power, greed, etc)

Nobody has a "clean" history... perhaps the closest to peace would be the Buddhism, but even there violence has happened
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence

To me, personally, the idea is to try and be a better person - there is no real expectation of perfection, as that is nigh-impossible due to the human condition.

It's why my wife and I, while identifying as Christian, incorporate parts of the Wiccan beliefs... including the Wiccan Rede, which is perhaps best summed up by this eight word line: An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will. There are many variations of the 'full' rede, but one of the most commonly accepted interpretations I know of:

Bide the Wiccan Law ye must,
In Perfect Love and Perfect Trust;

Live ye must and let to live,
Fairly take and fairly give.
True in love, ever be,
Lest thy love be false to thee.

With a fool no season spend,
Nor be counted as his friend.
Soft of eye and light of touch,
Speak ye little, listen much.

Ever mind the rule of three,
What ye send out comes back to thee.
This lesson well, thou must learn
Ye only get what ye do earn.

Eight words the Wiccan Rede fulfill -
An it harm none, do as ye will.

Deosil go by waxing Moon,
Sing and dance the invoking Rune;
Widdershins go by waning Moon,
Chant ye then a freeing tune;

When the Lady's Moon is new,
Kiss thy hand to Her times two;
When the Bow rides in the eve
Turn to what you would achieve;
When the Moon rides at her peak,
Then thy heart's desire seek;
When the Sickle shows Her face
Release the old with proper grace.

Greet the Days and greet the Nights
With joy and thanks for all delights.
Sing the seasons all around
Til wondrous awe and love abound

Heed the North wind's mighty gale,
Lock the door & trim the sail;
When the wind comes from the South,
Love will kiss thee on the mouth;

When the wind blows from the West,
Hearts will find their peace and rest;
When the wind blows from the East,
Expect the new and set the feast.

Nine woods in the Cauldron go,
Burn them quick and burn them slow;
Birch and fir and apple tree,
Hawthorn is sacred to Thee,
Willow, hazel, rowan, grape,
And oak will shape the weave of fate;
Elder be the Lady's tree -
Burn it not or cursed ye'll be.


Birchwood in the fire goes
To tell us true what Goddess knows.
Oak trees tower great with might,
Burn the Oak for God's insight.
Rowan is a tree of power
Causing life and magick to flower.
Willows at the waters stand
To help us to the Summerland.
Hawthorn burn to purify
And draw the faerie to your eye.
Hazel tree, the wisdom sage,
Lends strength that comes with honoured age.
White the flowers of Apple tree,
The holy gift of fecundity.
Grape grows upon the fruitful vine,
Sacred gifts of joy and wine.
Fir's ever greenness declares life
Succeeds beyond any strife.


Heed ye flower, bush, and tree,
And by the Lady Blessed be.
Where the rippling waters flow
Cast a stone and truth ye'll know;

Four times the Major Sabbats mark
In the light and in the dark:

As the old year starts to wane
The new begins with dark Samhain.
When flowers blossom through the snow
Fair Brighid casts her seed to sow.
When winter yields to warmth's return
Let the Beltane fires burn.
As summer turns to Lammas night
First fruits and Grain Gods reach their height.

Four times the Minor Sabbats fall
Use the Sun to mark them all:

At Yuletide, with feast and mirth
We celebrate the God Child's birth.
Spring Equinox, Eostara's fest,
All newborn creatures will be blessed.
When the Sun has reached its height
Celebrate the greatest Light.
Offer thanks at second reaping;
Mabon poised for winter's sleeping.

Cast the circle thrice about,
To keep unwelcome spirits out.
To bind the spell well every time,
Let the spell be spake in rhyme.

Follow this with mind & art,
Bright the cheeks and warm the heart,
And merry meet & merry part
And merry meet again!
 
Indeed - belief in God (or personal deity of choice) has lead peoples of all nations to commit unspeakable crimes... but the same could be said for the belief in just about anything (wealth, power, greed, etc)
I agree. Which, IMO, is due to our "decision making (moving) in the direction of greater satisfaction", a natural survival trait in every living thing (and perhaps even inanimate matter). But when combined with our seemingly unlimited ability to imagine "greater satisfaction", this drive has produced grotesque excesses in just about every human activity one can think of.
Nobody has a "clean" history... perhaps the closest to peace would be the Buddhism, but even there violence has happened
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhism_and_violence
Yes, when our desires become obsessive and greater than our needs, bad things tend to happen. A natural balance must be maintained.
To me, personally, the idea is to try and be a better person - there is no real expectation of perfection, as that is nigh-impossible due to the human condition.
It's why my wife and I, while identifying as Christian, incorporate parts of the Wiccan beliefs... including the Wiccan Rede, which is perhaps best summed up by this eight word line: An Ye Harm None, Do What Ye Will.
Most people will interpret that as a version of the Golden Rule, but the use of the phrase "Harm None" goes much deeper than interpersonal relationships among humans. It includes our environment as well.

I find many secular values in Scripture (of all kinds). The "Seven Deadly Sins" and "As You Sow, so Shall You Reap" accurately identify the limitations to which we must hold ourselves, lest we become our own victim of "desire in the direction of greater satisfaction".

The mathematical explanation can be found in the "Exponential Function".
 
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Indeed - I think the Dali Lama said it well: "Our prime purpose in this life is to help others. And if you can't help them, at least don't hurt them."
 
My philosophy of life and model of behavior . . .

I've always been kind of a pacifist. When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." - Russell Ziskey
 
My philosophy of life and model of behavior . . .

I've always been kind of a pacifist. When I was a kid, my father told me, "Never hit anyone in anger, unless you're absolutely sure you can get away with it." - Russell Ziskey

So hit from behind.

How Honorable. ( sarcasm)
 
Jan, you must have misunderstood my argument. I claimed that time does not exist unless there is change. IOW, before the creation of (our) universal space there was only a timeless metaphysical
condition (s = 0), (t = 0).

Then there's no misunderstanding, I'm suggesting that space always exists, and time doesn't need to exist in an empty vacuum because as yet, there is no movement of energy

During the creation of space, time (duration) was created and was inextricably associated with the chronology of spacetime from that point on (st = 1).

Maybe space isn't created. Maybe it's just a field of random material energy, which can only be manifested by God.

Actually, you might have used this proposition to your advantage by claiming that this timeless metaphysical (pre)condition is God.

Thanks for the tip, but I'm not concerned with winning or scoring points. I'll leave that to you guys. ;)

I would have countered that, in view of the unknowable properties of this timeless metaphysical condition, you can use any word you like, but it does not define a sentient God in any way. Certainly not a God which could be influenced by prayer.

Let's try another thought exercise. Imagine a world completely without sentience. What would it look like?

jan.
 
So hit from behind.

How Honorable. ( sarcasm)
Honor places us at a crossroads of peace and dogma. Throughout history, humans have been interacting with the dreamscape via bio-electricity. Who are we? Where on the great circuit will we be aligned?
 
Then there's no misunderstanding, I'm suggesting that space always exists, and time doesn't need to exist in an empty vacuum because as yet, there is no movement of energy.
OK, we seem to agree that time is a concurrent result of "change". Time is a Universal "experience". Would you call that sentient?
Maybe space isn't created. Maybe it's just a field of random material energy, which can only be manifested by God.
That sounds contradictory to me and is in conflict with hard data. If space is not created then how could energy pre-exist in any form, except as a Potential?
Let me try to visualixe it.
I call an infinite void a "timeless permittive condition with infinite potential", you call it God. We use different WORDS to define "That which came before reality", that's the difference.
The BIG difference is that your definition of this timeless condition invokes an intelligent awareness. Bohm's Insight Intelligence. I agree with that also. But then you assert that this timeless pseudo-intelligence is Sentient and Motivated.
That's where we part ways on this. My definition merely invokes a Mathematical Function.
Thanks for the tip, but I'm not concerned with winning or scoring points. I'll leave that to you guys. ;)
No need for ad hominem.
Let's try another thought exercise. Imagine a world completely without sentience. What would it look like?
jan.
It depends on the definition of "sentience".
Mine is:
Sentience
Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or experience subjectively. Eighteenth-century philosophers used the concept to distinguish the ability to think (reason) from the ability to feel (sentience). In modern Western philosophy, sentience is the ability to experience sensations (known in philosophy of mind as "qualia"). http://www.bing.com/search?q=sentience+meaning&qs=AS&pq=sentience&sk=SS1&sc=8-9&sp=2&cvid=9BFBDC571EC341969AF3908C6EC7A012&FORM=QBRE
Now look at the length of the web addy and see the written mathematical language of a purely logical intelligence, such as the Internet. It gets YOU there doesn't it?

But where would a motivated God want go? In the direction of "greater satisfaction" or, knowledge ?
 
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Honor places us at a crossroads of peace and dogma. Throughout history, humans have been interacting with the dreamscape via bio-electricity. Who are we? Where on the great circuit will we be aligned?
As Intelligent Hominids, just one form of the mathematical Expression of Infinite Potential.
The Implicate and the Explicate.
 
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As Intelligent Hominids, just one mathematical Expression of Infinite Potential. The Implicate and the Explicate.
In other words, we are in the midst of a self-aware blossoming of non-locality that will remove the barriers to the infinite itself. We are at a crossroads of synchronicity and desire.
 
In other words, we are in the midst of a self-aware blossoming of non-locality that will remove the barriers to the infinite itself. We are at a crossroads of synchronicity and desire.
Humans are, not the Universe. And we can already see the results of human desires on this little ball. The mathematical function will sort it all out, it has infinite wisdom.

p.s. how about; one plus one equals two, but desires time to complete the function..
 
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Humans are, not the Universe. And we can already see the results of human desires on this little ball. The mathematical function will sort it all out, it has infinite wisdom.

p.s. how about; one plus one desires (equals) two.
The complexity of the present time seems to demand a redefining of our lives if we are going to survive.
 
If space is not created then how could energy pre-exist in any form, except as a Potential?

potential -

1. latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness.

2. the quantity determining the energy of mass in a gravitational field or of charge in an electric field.

If there happens to be a paint brush, paints, and a canvas lying around, the potential is there to create a painting. But this is achieved when an intelligence is present. The instruments on their own cannot achieve that, no matter how long they are there.

I call an infinite void a "timeless permittive condition with infinite potential", you call it God. We use different WORDS to define "That which came before reality", that's the difference.

I call that the sum total of material energy, not God.

I comprehend God to be pure consciousness, whose nature is pure spirit.

The BIG difference is that your definition of this timeless condition invokes an intelligent awareness. Bohm's Insight Intelligence. I agree with that also. But then you assert that this timeless pseudo-intelligence is Sentient and Motivated.
That's where we part ways on this. My definition merely invokes a Mathematical Function.

It's not the condition that possesses intelligent awareness, but the cause that gives rise to the manifestation.
IOW the manifestation is activated by the presence of God, just as the body is can be said to be alive while the spirit is present.

Now look at the length of the web addy and see the written mathematical language of a purely logical intelligence, such as the Internet. It gets YOU there doesn't it?

I don't get how it does.

But where would a motivated God want go? In the direction of "greater satisfaction" or, knowledge ?

For His pleasure, and for our benefit.

jan.
 
Except a fictional concept, apparently.

It is indeed possible that God is a fictional concept - that's what makes it such a problem to prove either way - we are, after all, talking about an entity that could present him/her/itself as anything... or as nothing. What is to say that presentation is not based on belief?

That's the great mystery in the end
 
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