Perfectly evil God

[Capracus]

Of course it would be considered intentional, but why does that imply duality?

jan.

If you intentionally manufacture a sadistic condition, wouldn’t sadism be a necessary aspect of your nature? Same goes for God and duality.

 

[James R]

Link to another thread on a similar topic:

http://www.sciforums.com/threads/was-life-on-earth-created-by-an-evil-designer.157174

 

[Jan Ardena]

If you intentionally manufacture a sadistic condition, wouldn’t sadism be a necessary aspect of your nature? Same goes for God and duality.

What is sadism?

Sadism: the tendency to derive pleasure, especially sexual gratification, from inflicting pain, suffering, or humiliation on others.

In Genesis we get a notion of the complete make up of the human being.
That is, God fashioned the man out of the earth, then breathed His essence (life) into his nostril, and he became a living soul. I assume you agree so far.

So when God created man, in the plural, we can understand his make up. All humans have that life essence within. This means that man (human)has the essence of God within him. Now you may not believe that to be true, but the same concept is present in all the main sciptures, and to some degree, quite a few cultures, both past and present. So it isn't my concept.

In Ezekiel 18:4 God says: Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.

In Romans 6:23 it says: For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sin; an immoral act considered to be a transgression against divine law.

What can we understand about God? The first thing is God IS the Divine, and the divine laws are His. The second thing is, all the souls are His property, because they are part and parcel of Him (as demonstrated).

Lastly, to be a sadist is to have a tendency to inflict pain on to others, not yourself.
If God harms us, He harms Himself. Why would He do that?

So God being evil makes no sense, because God has to be the greatest. That has to be the position.

We know what evil is. We can recognise it if we pay attention. What is an evil act for one person, may be quite alright for another. So evil is a perception, and not an invention.
How is it that we can sense evil? Because we have a sense of goodness. And it is the distortion of goodness that evil can be recognised.

How can there a distortion in God, and He be God.

jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

No. I've been quite clear - to everybody but you, it seems. I asked you what the characteristics of God are.

It seems that nobody is playing your game, James. That's because it is nothing but a 'let's trash Theos, and theists marathon. Yet again. Don't you have anything else?

When did you ask me "what the characteristics of God are"?

You dodged the question and tried to change the subject to your usual ones about whether God exists, how atheists don't know God the way you do, etc.

There's absolutely no need for me to dodge such a question. I've explained that many times to you and others. I have also given links.

Atheists are without God. Is that a fair statement? Theists believe in God. Is that a fair statement?

So God is One in his evilness and goodness, like I suggested earlier.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

And most theists are wrong to claim that God is Good, because to do so would be to presume God's nature could be "dualistic".

Oh I get you now. You're being sarcastic.
The trouble with your sarcasm is that , for it to work, you have to distort what I say for it to fit.

You can think of God what you like, as it is your prerogative. There are plenty of of people who think God is evil, or a crap designer, a sadist, or just deny God.
But what is God, despite what we believe or deny? I would have thought that would be the forefront of discussion, on a science based forum. Not some personal, irrational, trashing, to feel good about ones atheism.

Thanks, Jan. You've been very helpful in correcting the errors of your fellow theists once again. You're almost certainly the most accomplished theist there is.

How would you know?
You're just being emotional James, because you've nowhere else to go, but make stuff up , and respond to that.

Jan.

 

[James R]

Jan Ardena:

It seems that nobody is playing your game, James.That's because it is nothing but a 'let's trash Theos, and theists marathon. Yet again. Don't you have anything else?

Actually, the thread topic is one of the standard questions in the philosophy of religion.

I suppose you perceive it as an attack on you ("theos") in part because you have no adequate response to the philosophical question I raised. I think you'll make any excuse to avoid discussing the actual question of the thread.

When did you ask me "what the characteristics of God are"?

The question of the thread is, essentially "Is God fundamentally good or evil?", or to put it another way, "Does God have a preference for good over evil, or vice-versa?"

This is a question about the characteristics of God. You can't honestly pretend you didn't appreciate the question asked in the thread. Especially seeing as I've personally walked you through it three or four times now.

Atheists are without God. Is that a fair statement? Theists believe in God. Is that a fair statement?

Who cares? It's irrelevant for this thread. Here, we're assuming that the God you believe in exists. I'm asking you what that God is like. And you have no answer.

I don't understand what you mean by this. Can you elaborate?

No. It's up to you to explain yourself. You can't expect me to speak for you.

The trouble with your sarcasm is that , for it to work, you have to distort what I say for it to fit.

Have you considered that if you didn't continually duck and weave and avoid the question, people wouldn't need to try to dig into your answers in an attempt to extract something meaningful from them? You could, like, say what you actually think, rather than doing everything in your power to avoid expressing any opinion or committing to any point of view. I get it that it's a defensive tactic on your part - that you're worried that if you actually try to answer you might open yourself up to objections - but if you're not willing to commit to any position I do wonder why you post in these threads at all.

You can think of God what you like, as it is your prerogative. There are plenty of of people who think God is evil, or a crap designer, a sadist, or just deny God.

What do you think? Why won't you tell us, rather than continually trying to criticise others who have the "wrong" beliefs, according to you?

But what is God, despite what we believe or deny? I would have thought that would be the forefront of discussion, on a science based forum. Not some personal, irrational, trashing, to feel good about ones atheism.

Ok. You start. What is God?

And once you've answered that, do you think you could address the thread topic: is God good or evil?

How would you know?

You're not very good at picking up on irony or sarcasm, Jan.

You're just being emotional James, because you've nowhere else to go, but make stuff up , and respond to that.

I'm emotional because you can't bring yourself to express an opinion on the question of whether God is good or evil. Right. Whatever you say, Jan.

 

[Jan Ardena]

Actually, the thread topic is one of the standard questions in the philosophy of religion.

It is a topic for atheist philosophy of religion.

I suppose you perceive it as an attack on you ("theos") in part because you have no adequate response to the philosophical question I raised. I think you'll make any excuse to avoid discussing the actual question of the thread.

Don't worry (as if you do), it's not an attack on me.
Such a question can only really be asked by someone who doesn't comprehend what God is. A person who can comprehend, has no need of such a question.
As such, I am trying to help you understand why that question has no merit, at least from a theist point of view.

The question of the thread is, essentially "Is God fundamentally good or evil?", or to put it another way, "Does God have a preference for good over evil, or vice-versa?"

This is a question about the characteristics of God. You can't honestly pretend you didn't appreciate the question asked in the thread. Especially seeing as I've personally walked you through it three or four times now.

It is not a question about the characteristics of God. You are sneaking in characteristics of your own.

Who cares? It's irrelevant for this thread. Here, we're assuming that the God you believe in exists. I'm asking you what that God is like. And you have no answer.

I'm telling you that the God that I believe in, cannot be, what you regard as evil, or what you regard as good, otherwise He wouldn't be God. Now it is your perogative to think that God is good, evil, or non existent, but that is not what God is. If you want to know what God is, I suggest you read Bhagavad Gita, or, one of the Puranas that explain ''What God Is''.

Have you considered that if you didn't continually duck and weave and avoid the question, people wouldn't need to try to dig into your answers in an attempt to extract something meaningful from them?

I've no need to duck. It's an unrelated question regarding God. Atheist can revel in it, because as far as they are concerned God doesn't really exist, meaning they can assign any characteristic they like, in any scenario they like. Atheist = atheos = without God. Do you get it yet?

You could, like, say what you actually think, rather than doing everything in your power to avoid expressing any opinion or committing to any point of view.

I'm saying exactly what I think James. And I don't have to distort you responses to say it.

What do you think? Why won't you tell us, rather than continually trying to criticise others who have the "wrong" beliefs, according to you?

What do I think about what? God?
I've told you at least 13,774 times.

Where have I described others as having ''wrong beliefs according to me''?

Ok. You start. What is God?

And once you've answered that, do you think you could address the thread topic: is God good or evil?

I've already told you what God is, in the context of this thread, and countless other discussions. It is your turn to explain what God is.


''God good or evil''. I don't know what that means. Can you define God, then explain how God good be actually good or evil, from our perspective.

Thank in advance
jan.

 

[kx000]

Let us engage in a philosophical discussion.

I propose that God exists. Moreover, I assert that God is maximally, perfectly evil. By this, I mean that God's ultimate aim for human beings is to maximise their suffering and pain. This is God's plan for the world.

He wouldn't be God. Nature would destroy him. I believe in Omniscience, he can't be violent. If God were LOVE. Just be passive at the unfortunate non-believers, and know that transcendence creates wisdom and that safety. Some of you might see Jesus right now. A passive messiah who can still torment the non-believers.

 

[James R]

It is a topic for atheist philosophy of religion.

That's a strange term. Philosophy is a rational inquiry into all kinds of things. It doesn't start from a particular political or religious viewpoint, but considers all views. It seeks to test different ideas about the "big questions" such as "what can be known?", "what is the nature of existence?" and "Is there a God and if so what is God's nature?"

It is a standard method of argument in philosophy to postulate a particular state of affairs, possibly counterfactually, and to see what follows logically or plausibly from that set of assumptions. A true philosophical inquiry does not start with a conclusion, but with a question.

Probably you're not used to this kind of thinking.

It is not a question about the characteristics of God. You are sneaking in characteristics of your own.

No.

I'm telling you that the God that I believe in, cannot be, what you regard as evil, or what you regard as good, otherwise He wouldn't be God.

I get it. You'd say the vast majority of people who say they believe in God have the wrong notion of what God is, and that they are mistaken in believing that God is Good.

Got anything you want to add to that?

Now it is your perogative to think that God is good, evil, or non existent, but that is not what God is. If you want to know what God is, I suggest you read Bhagavad Gita, or, one of the Puranas that explain ''What God Is''.

I was hoping that, as an expert in those texts, you could give a summary of their views on the question of the thread. Clearly, you can't, or won't.

Your response is about as helpful as me saying "If you want to know anything about Classical Electrodynamics, then go and read Jackson's seminal text on that subject. I won't direct you to where you can find the specific answer to anything you're interested in. I expect you to work it out for yourself from scratch."

It's an unrelated question regarding God.

You don't think it's important to know what God is like? That's "unrelated" to your religious practice, is it?

Atheist can revel in it, because as far as they are concerned God doesn't really exist, meaning they can assign any characteristic they like, in any scenario they like.

Good for them. But I'm asking you about your God.

Atheist = atheos = without God. Do you get it yet?

Don't attempt to lecture me on what I believe, Jan. You've failed to understand atheism for a long time now, and you continually throw up the same canards.

Where have I described others as having ''wrong beliefs according to me''?

You don't have to say it. If the average Christian, for example, believes that "God is Good", then from your responses it is clear that you think the average Christian is mistaken about this. Thus, they have the "wrong belief" about what God is, according to you, because you assume that your own beliefs are the "correct" ones.

I've already told you what God is, in the context of this thread, and countless other discussions. It is your turn to explain what God is.

I'm happy to discuss the thread topic any time you want to start, Jan. If you'd like to discuss some other topic, why not start your own thread on it?

''God good or evil''. I don't know what that means.

Then you're probably not intellectually qualified to participate in this discussion.

Out of interest: do you have any notion of what it means for a person to be good or evil, Jan? Or are you telling us that you're mystified by the whole idea of good and evil?

Can you define God, then explain how God good be actually good or evil, from our perspective.

It seems I have little, if any, access to your perspective, Jan. You'll have to solve your own problems.

 

[Jan Ardena]

That's a strange term. Philosophy is a rational inquiry into all kinds of things. It doesn't start from a particular political or religious viewpoint, but considers all views. It seeks to test different ideas about the "big questions" such as "what can be known?", "what is the nature of existence?" and "Is there a God and if so what is God's nature?"

Surely the first question is ''What is God'', and having got the answer you progress on to ''Is there a God and if so what is God's nature.

The problem of evil can be understood without having to change the characteristics of God. For example, karma, deals perfectly with that question.

The problem is, atheists cannot get passed the existence of God, because ther perseption cannot comprehend what God is.

It is a standard method of argument in philosophy to postulate a particular state of affairs, possibly counterfactually, and to see what follows logically or plausibly from that set of assumptions. A true philosophical inquiry does not start with a conclusion, but with a question.

If you are going to counter something, then you must know what you are countering, and you have to take the nature of that thing into consideration, when doing so.

By postulating that God may be evil, or, what if God was evil, is to not understand what God is. It is understandable if someone is not aware of the characteristics of God, to think that it could be possible, or if someone doesn't accept what is understood about God, or, someone who is anti-God/theist, why they could consistently raise these questions.

Asking 'what is God', is not a conclusion, but a question. If we have an explanation of 'what is God', why do we need a counter-explanation? Like I said, it is the characteristics and nature of God that produces both theist and atheist alike.
You don't seem interested in 'what is God', you only seem interested in creating a concoction, then throwing it into the arena.

I get it. You'd say the vast majority of people who say they believe in God have the wrong notion of what God is, and that they are mistaken in believing that God is Good.

Got anything you want to add to that?

No I wouldn't say that. We can think about God what we like. That is our perogative. As such we see God from different perspectives, or not see (or believe in), as the case may be. People think God is great, good, evil, incompetant, love, tyrannical, non-personal, non-characteric, non-existent, and lots of other things.
But these are individual perceptions. As I believe we are created in the image of God, we have a lot of room in which we are able to express these notions. So I wouldn't say they are wrong. If you think God is evil, I wouldn't accuse you of being mistaken, because you may actuallty think that is the case.

I was hoping that, as an expert in those texts, you could give a summary of their views on the question of the thread. Clearly, you can't, or won't.

I've given loads in the past, and got lambasted for preaching, or evangelising, or something more sinister. So if you want to know, go and look for yourself. I've given you a good source, the rest is up to you.

Your response is about as helpful as me saying "If you want to know anything about Classical Electrodynamics, then go and read Jackson's seminal text on that subject. I won't direct you to where you can find the specific answer to anything you're interested in. I expect you to work it out for yourself from scratch."

We've had discussions in the past where I have gone into detail about God, using both the Bible and Bhagavad Gita. I'm not going to keep repeating myself, only to be asked to repeat myself again.
You have also said, in the past (probably in this thread also) that you are prepared to use the scriptural definition of God. So I assume you know 'what God is' (regardless of belief status), but cannot, and will not accept it, and proceed to play games.

You don't think it's important to know what God is like? That's "unrelated" to your religious practice, is it?

What does that have to do with your unrelated question(s) of God?

Good for them. But I'm asking you about your God.

I've explained that your question, in fact the whole thread, is unrelated to God, and it would only make sense if you didn't know God's characteristics. Having been put straight, and still continue with your unrelated questions, it is no longer an enquiry.

Don't attempt to lecture me on what I believe, Jan. You've failed to understand atheism for a long time now, and you continually throw up the same canards.

Don't attempt to lecture me on what I believe, for the same reasons.

You don't have to say it.

If you're accusing me of it, then yes, then I would have to have said it, for the accusations to be valid.

If the average Christian, for example, believes that "God is Good", then from your responses it is clear that you think the average Christian is mistaken about this.

No it's not clear, you're just saying that for effect. You are putting a spin on what I say, for whatever reason.

I'm happy to discuss the thread topic any time you want to start, Jan. If you'd like to discuss some other topic, why not start your own thread on it?

We are discussing it, at least I am. I've explained why it is unrelated, and contradictory to God. To actually take part in this discussion the way you'd like, is to discuss a made up person who cannot be God. Hence the topic is doomed before it begins, which is why there is no real discussion on the table.

Then you're probably not intellectually qualified to participate in this discussion.

Probably not.

Out of interest: do you have any notion of what it means for a person to be good or evil, Jan? Or are you telling us that you're mystified by the whole idea of good and evil?

Yes I'm aware of this. People are either good, evil, or both, but God isn't people.

It seems I have little, if any, access to your perspective, Jan. You'll have to solve your own problems.

Heh!

jan.

 

[Seattle]

God can't be evil because evil is doing something that displeases God. God can't displease God.

We can't discuss some characteristic of God that man made up. We have to discuss the God that man didn't make up. The real one.

God is God. You can't characterize anything that God does as good or evil. It's just God's actions. It takes man (or the Devil) to be good or evil.

God is what could be known as evil if it were not done by God. All the evidence seems to point that way. There wouldn't be evil in the world otherwise.

Jan can't answer your questions James because God just is. Whatever Jan thinks about God doesn't change God. It's pointless for Jan to answer since Jan can't define God. No one can. Anyone who tries is just making things up.

Jan knows there is a God but God would exist even without Jan's knowing God. I suspect Jan is afraid to get too specific regarding the characteristics of God. God doesn't like people pretending to "know" him. God is unknowable.

Jan doesn't know anything. To pretend to know anything would be without God and Jan is with God.

The only person who can address these questions is the Devil. The Devil knows God and isn't afraid of God.

The Devil actually is God as well. God is everything so yes, God is evil and good.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

God doesn't like people pretending to "know" him. God is unknowable.

You said God is unknowable yet you say God does not like people pretending to "know" him.
How do you know what he does not like if he is unknowable.
If he is unknowable how do you know there is a God?
How do know God is a male, does this mean there is a female God?
How long is a piece of string?
Alex

 

[Sarkus]

I'm declining to comment on Seattle's post until I am sure that it was not posted as piece of satire.

 

[Seattle]

You said God is unknowable yet you say God does not like people pretending to "know" him.
How do you know what he does not like if he is unknowable.
If he is unknowable how do you know there is a God?
How do know God is a male, does this mean there is a female God?
How long is a piece of string?
Alex

The length of a piece of string is determined by measuring from one end to the other end and that is the length of the string and no more.

I don't know that God is a male. It got too tedious to keep writing "God" so apparently I slipped and referred to God as "him" one time.

I don't know that there is a God. I have no evidence for God at all.

I was channeling my inner "Jan" while attempting to address James in the vein of "Jan".

 

[Seattle]

I'm declining to comment on Seattle's post until I am sure that it was not posted as piece of satire.

Then you will not be commenting.

 

[Sarkus]

Then you will not be commenting.

Thank God for that!

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

The length of a piece of string is determined by measuring from one end to the other end and that is the length of the string and no more.

You are the first to successfully answer that question your wisdom is wise.

I was channeling my inner "Jan" while attempting to address James in the vein of "Jan".

Maybe you are God.
Is the devil male and is there a Mrs Devil?
How round is a circle?
Alex

 

[Seattle]

You are the first to successfully answer that question your wisdom is wise.

Maybe you are God.
Is the devil male and is there a Mrs Devil?
How round is a circle?
Alex

Maybe I am, how would I know?
The Devil just "is".
A circle is just round enough to come back on itself and no more.

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

The Devil just "is".

It is my philosophy that everything just " is".
This approach works so well.
There is no need to qualify but humans are invariably compelled to do so.

Trump is he good or bad ..no just is.
Saves presenting or holding a position.


Alex

 

[Xelasnave.1947]

A circle is just round enough to come back on itself and no more.

It is a wise man who can add wisdom to geometry.
Alex

 

[Seattle]

It is my philosophy that everything just " is".
This approach works so well.
There is no need to qualify but humans are invariably compelled to do so.

Trump is he good or bad ..no just is.
Saves presenting or holding a position.


Alex

There is no "evil" in my viewpoint. That is a religious term. Trump is a man, a flawed man who will probably make some good decisions along with many bad decision. There is nothing "evil" about it.