Perfectly evil God

Discussion in 'Religion' started by James R, Nov 9, 2016.

  1. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    10,690
    I think you have missed the point.

    It is one thing to hold, and discuss a stance about something one has an idea of.
    But to not have an idea of that subject, then proceed to continue as though you do, will not progress the discussion, and is tedious for those who have, at least some idea, who also partake in said discussion.

    If James had no idea of The Avengers, let alone seen the movie, then proceeded to give his own idea of the movie plot. I think we'd all be pissed at his contribution efforts. Do you agree?.

    Just to clarify, both The Avengers, and the movie are real, in the way that they conform to our reality.

    jan.
     
    Last edited: Nov 17, 2016
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  3. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    You do not know how much James R knows about the concept of God.


    James R does know of the Avenger and has seen the movie. And he also knows the story is not about real people doing real things.

    You would argue he is unable to discuss the plot of the movie. You would argue that the only one who can argue the plot of the movies is someone who actually believes the story and characters are real.

    This is the classic ad hominem.
    "You can't be an Obe/Gyn, you don't even have a uterus!"
    "You can't discuss astronomy you've never been in space!"
    "You can't talk about Lord of the Rings. You think it's fiction!"
    "You can't talk about God. You think it's not real!"
     
    James R likes this.
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  5. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    The characters are real, which is why we can understand each other in our discussions about them. But we can understand the extent to which they are real.

    Just because they are fictional characters doesn't we can just make stuff up about them.

    ''What if Spiderman was bitten by a dog, how would he climb walls, and swing from building to building?''

    Or ''What lf Spiderman was girl. Why would he be called he, SpiderMAN.

    Of we could discuss these, and come up with answers, but it wouldn't be a serious conversation. Especially for Spiderman fans.

    Classic misrepresentation tactic. Turn everything into humour, hence you don't have to respond honestly.

    jan.
     
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  7. birch Valued Senior Member

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    5,077
    But we already know that. We also dont need to be outside that room to notice pain, starvation etc if it were occuring. We dont need a comparison to know those is a problem or their are issues. Yes, we dont know what other problems or better circumstances exist outside but that doesnt whitewash what occurs inside either.
     
  8. timojin Valued Senior Member

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    3,252
    God give me free will and I can do what I want to do . But give me an advice in how to live , again I live how I want and if I don't follow His advice I am responsible for the consequence.
    Ket take your position, I have my free will and I do not get any advice , and I will think of survival at all cost, here in this case , chances will be greater to have pain because of confrontation and chances to have a temporary happiness .
    Base on my senario. Man can live independent of God but there will be beings , those who will seek God's advice and those who will not seek His advice. By this argument for one group God exist and for the other group they will deny His existence
     
  9. river

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    10,549
    just be true to the goodness within yourself .
     
  10. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    31,089
    Jan Ardena:

    For the purposes of this thread, it doesn't actually matter whether I have any idea of what God existing is. Luckily, I have you here, and you say you're an expert who has all that knowledge.

    So, I'm asking you, with all your expert knowledge, whether it is possible to know if God is good or evil?

    It seems that, even with all your expertise, an answer to this seemingly simply query eludes you. And so, you bluff and bluster and try to change the topic.

    And if I asked whether it was possible to tell whether the main character in that movie was a good guy or a bad guy, you'd say I wasn't "qualified" to ask that question, would you?

    Suppose I started this thread with: "I propose that Spiderman is really a girl. Can anybody come up with some reason to show why I am wrong?"

    I think that, in response to this, any Spiderman fan could immediately produce a string of plausible arguments in favour of Spiderman being male.

    And yet, when I start a thread saying "I propose that God is evil. Can anybody come up with some reason to show that I am wrong?", all I get in response from theists such as yourself are complaints that I don't believe in God. Meanwhile, a few tumbleweeds blow past and the point of the thread remains unanswered.
     
  11. DaveC426913 Valued Senior Member

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    8,567
    OK, so we're agreeing then. It is entirely possible to discuss characters that may or may not actually exist outside the stories in which they're written, or whether one bleive they really exist in the real world.

    James R does not need to think the Avengers story actually happened - or that the Avengers are real people - in order to discuss them.

    Those are all succinct examples of a classic form of ad hom, of the kind you are attempting.

    "You cannot discuss X because you do not have personal experience of X. Only those with X can discuss X."

    That is an ad hom because it tries to invalidate the arguer, not the argument. And it fails. A man is perfectly capable of being an expert Ob/Gyn. James R is perfectly capable of discussing God.

    So stop arguing dishonestly. Address James R's arguments.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2016
  12. river

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    10,549
    A perfectly evil god could never exist .

    what would this god survive on ?
     
  13. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    10,690
    Existence is not the issue. The characteristics of God are.
    You are changing the characteristics, thereby changing the subject matter.
    You don't have to be an expert to know God's characteristics. They are the reason theists accept, and atheists don't. You may cite ''there is no evidence for God'' as your reason, but it due to His characteristics.

    That's not a good question as it presumes that God's nature is dualistic.
    If God's nature is dualistic, by definition, that isn't God.

    If you watch the film you'll know. If the main character isn't God, then it is possible for he or she to be good, evil, or both. So differences of opinion can take place.

    Right, but if you keep asking, once they presented their arguments, you will become tedious.

    It has nothing to do with belief.
    You change the subject matter by humanising God, and leave us with nothing to talk about. There is nothing to answer.

    jan.
     
  14. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    Jan:

    As per usual, you are going out of your way to avoid engaging in any meaningful way with the question you have been asked. You are wasting my time.
     
  15. Capracus Registered Senior Member

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    736
    If the nature of God’s creation is by all accounts dualistic, then it would be safe to assume that God’s nature is as well.
     
  16. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    5,160
    If you ever read the bible, there are two trees in the garden of eden. There is the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil and the Tree of Life. Eve and Adam, chose to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. This symbolized the transition where human reality perception becomes divided into a duality; binarius. This is projected onto God but it really reflects the nature of Satan; middleman.

    The better projection of God, symbolic of the tree of life, can't be seen as long as the duality exists within human nature; original sin. The tree of life was sealed, less the duality within modern of humans, last forever. The split nature of humans is supposed to be a stepping stone until our 2-D nature; good and evil, becomes 3-D; spatial and integrated.

    In a natural ecosystem, there is a delicate balance which integrates the system so all components are optimized. If you apply laws of good and evil to the components of an ecosystem, the balance is lost; death appears. For example, if we define the trees as good, wood for fire and building homes, or define hate to the predators, that we kill them, the balance is lost and all comments of the natural ecosystem suffer. The tree of life accepts things as they are, since all components are designed to integrated in 3-D; life.

    In the New Testament, law was nailed to the cross with the death of Jesus and replaced with love; fruit of the tree of life.

    1 Corinthians 13:4-8
    4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud.
    5 It does not dishonor others, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs.
    6 Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth.
    7 It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
    8Love never fails.
     
  17. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    10,690
    No I'm not. I am being very meaningful in my engagement.
    I'm showing you your error. Why is it so hard for you to accept?

    jan.
     
  18. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    10,690
    Please explain why this assumption would be safe?

    jan.
     
  19. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    10,690
    I'm not saying he does. But something happened (Marvel Comics) and he needs to know that, or get information from someone who does. Otherwise he's not actually discussing the topic, should he engage in a disussion about the plot. Are we in agreement on this?

    Where have I stated he can't discuss God?

    jan.
     
  20. wellwisher Banned Banned

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    5,160
    God is defined as a unity and a trinity; Father, Son, Holy Spirit. This means God's nature is 3-D or spatial, and not 2-D and causal. The 2-D principle is connected to Satan; knowledge of good and evil, where good and evil populate the (x,y) axis of pre-logic. One inferred the cause and affect of behavior through reward and punishment imposed by law.

    If you read the bible, Satan in the old Testament and up to and including parts of Revelations, was in Heaven, acting as the left hand man of God. The most obvious example is the book of Job, where Satan is advising God, in an underhanded way, to put Job through all kinds of harsh tests of faith. Satan was in heaven, when Jesus was killed. Satan is not throw from Heaven until in Revelations, which was written by John decades after Jesus died.

    The mistake that people make is what they assume to be God, is actually God superimposed with Satan. Satan was good and evil and in charge of the earth, like a middle level manager and intermediate to humans. Adam and Even made that pact. When Satan is thrown from Heaven, he becomes the Devil, who evil and much easy to differentiate. Satan was not always the Devil. Satan began as Lucifer, who was with God at the beginning of creation, as the most beautiful of his angels. Lucifer had the gift of choice. The choices of Lucifer evolve Lucifer who then becomes Satan, who is still with God. Further choices, cause Satan to choice apart from God and he is banished.

    If you look at an ecosystem, you have many things that are connected in a chain of connected cause and affect. This is the nature of 3-D, where no one thing is isolated into a separate cause and affect, but rather there is a spatial integration of many causes and affects. It takes faith to see this 3-D. The reason for faith is the right hemisphere of the brain is spatial and is the place where intuition is processed. One can get an intuition how it works, but may not be able to put this into works so that 2-D thinkers can easily see.

    Instinct is often 1-D in terms of the individual. The Koala bear is liner in terms of his eating habits. But in terms of the bigger picture, the Koala bear is part of a 3-D ecosystem; instinct is a unity and trinity.

    The symbolism of Adam and Eve is connect to the choice of law, This is 2-D, and advances the individual with choice. However, but it loses the trinity; natural eco-system integration. Faith is about one thinking in 3-D, so can become part of the integration. This may not always be logical since it is a chain and ring of logic steps that all need to connect.
     
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2016
  21. James R Just this guy, you know? Staff Member

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    No. I've been quite clear - to everybody but you, it seems. I asked you what the characteristics of God are. You dodged the question and tried to change the subject to your usual ones about whether God exists, how atheists don't know God the way you do, etc.

    So God is One in his evilness and goodness, like I suggested earlier. And most theists are wrong to claim that God is Good, because to do so would be to presume God's nature could be "dualistic".

    Thanks, Jan. You've been very helpful in correcting the errors of your fellow theists once again. You're almost certainly the most accomplished theist there is.
     
  22. Capracus Registered Senior Member

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    736
    If a creator exists, and the operational premise of its creation is a continual cycle of creation begetting destruction begetting creation, then wouldn’t this dualistic dance be considered intentional on the part of the creator? This isn’t obvious to you?
     
  23. Jan Ardena Valued Senior Member

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    10,690
    Of course it would be considered intentional, but why does that imply duality?

    jan.
     

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