LHC Safety and the Law

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by rpenner, Sep 23, 2008.

  1. udarnik Registered Senior Member

    ありがとう ごずぃます.

    I can't post links yet as I don't have 20 posts, sorry, but what I can find that Werbos has said in public is here:


    Relevant quote:

    This argument seems to be at the heart of the quoted section of that letter talking about risking things on our understanding of zero point energy.

    Although, earlier in that post, he did hedge his bets against coming out against the collider:

    I've been wading through the stuff he posted on arXiv, including the one on Bell's Theorem, and I wonder if you have done the same, and if you have, then what is your opinion of him?
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  3. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

    I think his thesis is actually that it is reasonable that certain experiments should be performed somewhere other than the surface of earth. But I see nothing to support that general sentiment or that specifically anything at LHC is in this proposed class. In short, I see nothing reasonable here in light of the long-term stability of the solar system and the background of 100+ EeV cosmic rays.
    He posts on zpenergy.com. In short, I see nothing reasonable here. It is the opposite of a persuasive argument.

    But in light of the topic of this thread, I don't believe WLW has relied on PJW in any direct legal manner. Perhaps, though, it was PJW who brought Adam Helfer's paper to the attention of James Blodgett, author of an affidavit. But Martin Rees is mentioned twice and from what I recall, PJW not at all.
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  5. udarnik Registered Senior Member

    外国語が大好きです。 ロシア語も中國語もフランス語を話せますけどロシア語だ

    It seems to me that Wagner is casting about desperately for anyone with legitimate Ph.D. credentials, especially in Physics, to join his legal filing team.

    In 2000, he had in his cluster of affidavits a letter from BYU Prof. Emeritus H. Kimball Hansen, who, as near as I can tell, was in his 80s in 2000. That's as close to a real, practicing Physicist joining the team as the anti-LHC crowd has ever come. I suspect that the hiatus in this round of legal proceedings mentioned by you in this thread - the one where WLW went to Utah - was an attempt to re-enlist Prof. Hansen in this particular cause. At this point, however, Prof. Hansen has to be pushing 90.

    WLW's brother, a software engineer at Northrop Grumman, files along with him in the capacity of a "risk expert", and he has a Ph.D. in Computer Science:


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  7. Read-Only Valued Senior Member

    It appears that there isn't anyone in the anti-LHC camp with any real credentials in particle physics. Primarily just a has-been botanist and a freaky psychologist.
  8. udarnik Registered Senior Member

    I plan to go over some of the individuals involved in a blog post. Plaga is the only one with a Physics degree, and Wagner follower JTankers is always quick to point to that Doctor Habil. as a "senior Ph.D.", as if seniority meant anything in science beyond tenure. Rossler touts that "visiting professorship" as if it means anything, as well. But on this side of the Atlantic, no there's been no one since Hansen with a legitimate Physics degree to lend any credence.
  9. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

    Well a happy "ni hao" to your wife, then. (After two years self-study, my "ni hao" is passable, "zhongwen" has been recognized as the word I intended exactly once.)

    RW (although not his exact relationship with WLW) is known to me from his affidavit.

    In the also-ran category, was a certain "ubavontuba" of http://physforum.com/ (site down). He seemed more like a "if I post last, I win" type of troll than someone knowledgeable in physics or risk assessment. A weird combination of "Nothing else matters" and "I can't be bothered to reply coherently."

    I had assumed that WLW was headed to Utah to attend the semi-annual meeting of the Church of Latter Day Saints. At least that was the conjecture given to me by two people familiar with the church, but they thought it strange since the events are availble world-wide by streaming video. BYU, to which Prof. Hansen is associated with, is also in Provo, so that may be it.

    It was a complete mystery to me why judges in Hawaiian criminal court and Federal district court felt willing to grant leave for this Utah expedition. Some details might exist in document 72, TRANSCRIPT of Proceedings Motion to Dismiss or Motion for Summary Judgment held on 9/2/2008, before Judge Helen Gillmor. Court Reporter Debra Chun. But I don't want to fly to Hawaii for the opportunity to view it for free.
  10. udarnik Registered Senior Member

    rpenner - 僕のブログをコメントして下さい 。eメールを書きたいんだから。

    You need a Chinese girlfriend. Although my wife says I speak Chinese like a deaf person, other people have no problem understanding my gweilo Chinese.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    OT - I have encountered ubavontuba before while lurking. At first I mis-ID'd him as WLW. I also had a similar troll from Lower Saxony show up on my first post. That troll, JTankers and WLW were all in communication with each other. uba seems to be from California, so the German seems to be new to all this.
  11. prometheus viva voce! Registered Senior Member

    ubavontuba is great fun though.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    I really miss physorg at the moment. Does anyone know why it's down and if / when it will be back?
  12. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

    No, and no. The "news" portion of the site is still working.

    In Hawaiian Lawsuit news, we have an official appellate court case number.
    [9th circuit appellate court] Docket No.: 08-17389
  13. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

    Wagner has signalled his intention to continue the appeal by filing on Monday a transcript order form which indicates he does not wish any transcripts of the previous oral hearing to be prepared. It seems strange to me that the appellee/respondent doesn't have docket entries with regard to that, but que será será.

    So, with regard to the "Hawaiian LHC Case" we will likely have no news until post-Obama Inauguration. Indeed, no Google News this month.

    Wagner didn't have to return to Hawaii for the cancelled October 14th hearing on the subject of Default Judgement vs. CERN. So where is Wagner now? Is it possible that he stayed in Utah the whole time since September 18? Probably not, since he was interviewed for Big Island Video News on or about October 16th. But on the latest form he once again lists an address in Utah. Brrr, cold! It reminds me of the time when he filed the same case in multiple jurisdictions. Maybe, at some point we can discuss physics.

    New Links:
    http://www.eejlaw.com/lhc/ Eric E. Johnson, an Assistant Professor of Law wants more "judicial review" -- not really sure what he means -- does he really want the courts to have to approve every single new thing people do? Or is he just throwing up the idea intending for others to properly shoot it down like the majority of the comments seem to have.
    Last edited: Nov 21, 2008
  14. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

    News: LHC to restart in (June) 2009
    That less than 7 full months for Wagner to win his appeal, establish jurisdiction (not necessarily the same thing), establish standing, establish non-mootness, establish timeliness, establish damages, establish potential for meaningful relief and get a restraining order. (In addition, the question of whether he legally served CERN has yet to be decided.)

    But it's actually worse than that, since the appellate court is unlikely to rule before March (unless it rules against Wagner). So less than 4 months remain in the district court -- indeed the appeal decision could drag out for months.

    But on a factual basis, Wagner is in no better position to sue than he was in 1999. Since 1999 not one bit of evidence has made any of the disaster scenarios more likely. Why didn't Wagner sue in 1999 when his RHIC lawsuits were going and his legal education (some of it in the school of hard knocks) was that much newer?
  15. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

    News results:

    LHC Doom prediction is #7 on this list of worst predictions of 2008 -- very mocking -- little substance to post.

    But copied in China: 大強子對撞機 (Or in Simplified: 大强子对撞机) is literally Large Hadron Collider. Remarkable agreement between syllables. http://www.takungpao.com/news/08/12/11/_IN-1003110.htm (An item on the topic of democracy was removed, shifting Wagner up in the rankings.)

    大 -- Large
    強子 -- Hadron (from 強 Strong and 子 Particle)
    對撞機 -- Collider (from 對 Onto 撞 Strike strongly -> 對撞 Collide and 機 Machine )

    Courtroom News: (Today!)

    We get a new US Attorney on the case. Actually its a bit confusing since at one point he was listed as attorney for all parties, including Wagner. John E. Arbab has reasonable experience with the NEPA and the appeals court. Let's hope he can slam dunk this one.
    Last edited: Dec 19, 2008
  16. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

    Another page addressing Wagner and the LHC lawsuit.

  17. udarnik Registered Senior Member

    Walter has been active recently, and so has his minion, JTankers. He took offense at something Jim said, and in one small detail he happened to be right (I know, blind pigs, truffles, and all that). If you go back to the Stonekettle Station post about Walter, you'll find the whole mess.

    But then, well, then he decided to threaten the lawyer in our little online group. Big mistake. For some real comedy Check out Standing On the Shoulders of Giant Midgets, and Eric's "Wagner is Still Under Indictment" and "Open Letter to Walter L. Wagner" posts.

    As far as we know, Walter is back in Utah.

    And I just published a thorough examination of Otto Rossler on Refugees From the City.

    But the funniest piece is an email train that Jim and I were subjected to. I'll excerpt a part of it:

    Oh, but there's more:

    As Jim noted, this guy is all OVER the net, and he's seriously pissed about the quoted temperature of those magnets. :crazy:

    There is even more, I've left out about half the Crazy. But, you know, you guys take care of yourselves. This is why I blog anonymously. I don't think this guys a serious threat, but I've been around the mentally ill long enough to know not to bet the whole farm on what *I* think they will do.
  18. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

    Links inserted. Yes, Walter seemed to get state court permission to leave Hawai'i and seemed to get his Federal court schedule shuffled for this departure, and Luis Sancho's Hawai'ian mailing address returns mail to the Federal Court also with a Utah forwarding address. Since the timing seemed to correspond with the semi-annual grand meeting of Utah's most prominent religious group, I didn't want to describe it as running away, but if the federal action hadn't been dismissed Walter should have been back in Hawaii by now. Plans change.

    But as the credibility of these claims has long since jumped the shark, people might start asking questions about trivial claims made by the team of Sancho and Wagner. For example, what evidence is there that Luis Sancho, citizen of Spain, was a Hawai'ian resident? Is there some sort of meaningful standard here or can sleeping for a week on a friend's couch qualify?

    I don't think they've gone to Utah to restart the Federal action from another state. (Wagner, at least, already tried that with respect to RHIC.)
    //Edit -- I think I spotted Rössler's editorial trick before and commented on it.
    Oh yes, that was back in April 2008. Has he actually published those papers somewhere, or are they perpetually "pending"?
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2009
  19. udarnik Registered Senior Member

    Well, he's still involved in the Botanical Gardens thing, and we found a document on the Hawai'i courts server that shows that the prosecutor in the theft and ID theft cases filed by the Botanical Gardens against him made a stipulation for him to leave Hawai'i for Utah in November on a $6000 bond. His snail mail threat to Jim a week or two ago came postmarked from Utah. As far as we know he's still there.

    The interesting things in Utah I came up with were these:



    Now, the Gardens been involved in litigation against him for close to these amounts, I'm assuming he has some sort of property in Utah against which these liens were filed.

    The Gardens themselves are a corporation formed in the State of Nevada, and he's been involved with the court system there, too:


    You might get a chuckle out of a few quotes:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 8, 2009
  20. udarnik Registered Senior Member

    Oh yes, there are several reprimands in the Hawai'i LHC case documents about Walter filing papers for Sancho without a proper signature from Sancho. I have a feeling he's back in Spain.
  21. udarnik Registered Senior Member

    From here:


  22. rpenner Fully Wired Valued Senior Member

    -- Mar 29 2008. rpenner

    Udarnik's quote is from the Federal lawsuit and represents a professional's growing dissatisfaction with Wagner's making up procedure as he goes along. It was a footnote filed on August 27, 2008 by the US Defendants (Docket number 56, one of the subjects of the September 2 hearing which resulting in the ruling that the NEPA does not authorize the suit against the LHC). For reasons which the docket does not make clear, this motion (which was denied in the September 2 proceedings) does not appear in the docket.

    Less than one month until Wagner's appeal brief is due.
  23. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    I just attended a talk given by one of the members of the LHC project (ATLAS detector to be specific), and they mentioned the staggering figures for media coverage surrounding the grand opening back in September. It was also mentioned that a lot of this coverage was sparked by interest in the inevitable doomsday us mad scientists were going to bring. I'm thinking we should claim a potential doomsday scenario every time we start a new project, and then charge viewers to watch the grand opening on pay per view. This could potentially fund physics research around the world for decades to come.

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