Israeli/Hamas disregard for human life.

Discussion in 'World Events' started by StrawDog, Feb 5, 2009.

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  1. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    To be fair, its quite natural to believe that it would be a demented Palestinian.

    But I am more familiar with the history of Gush Etzion and once I realised Bat Ayin is there, the whole story seemed highly implausible. These guys are watched by the Israelis, they are such nutters. No way any Arab who came with an axe could "run away".

    Also, to be completely fair, its still possible it could be a Palestinian. Money trumps laws, every time. Just because Arabs are not "allowed" in Gush Etzion doesn't mean no one has greasy palms there.

    But considering how nutty they are, its less likely. Even Israeli media and soldiers are not safe there. Forget about 'illegal' Arabs.
     
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  3. Zakariya04 and it was Valued Senior Member

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    no maximus they probably asked the UN staff stationed there!!
     
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  5. pjdude1219 The biscuit has risen Valued Senior Member

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    a little word to all the people people getting pissed about people asking why this happened. Knowing why something happened is the first step in preventing from happening again.
     
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  7. TW Scott Minister of Technology Registered Senior Member

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    No, what I am sayng is that I would never let my house be a target. Why would they target a house with mo military value, Unless of course they were HAMAS. If you will notice all civilized nations, including Israel, target only military targets and they use precision weapons. The fact that HAMAS parks innoccent civillians atop military targets is reprehensible and not the fault of the Israelis.


    Are you kidding? Maybe at the beginning of the last century this was true, however you should look at how wars are fought now. Pinpoint accurate weapons guided by the most advanced technology used to strike military and infrastructure with minimal collateral damage.
     
  8. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Iraq, Palestine, Afghanistan, Pakistan and Lebanon.

    Over a million people killed. "Collateral damages" Gitmo, Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Diego Garcia, Facility 1391 thousands tortured. Collateral damages. Military Target? Insurgents ie normal civilians who take up arms against invasion and occupation.
     
  9. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    All would have had far greater casualties if indiscriminate bombing were implemented.
     
  10. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    How much ordnance has been used? How much would qualify as indiscriminate?
     
  11. John99 Banned Banned

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    this small piece of land causing all this trouble. to me it just seems that another different tribe is not wanted there. i cannot tell a country that they cannot have all the inhabitants being the same religion but as far as i know that is how it is in Muslim countries.
     
  12. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    No reservations for natives?
     
  13. John99 Banned Banned

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    excuse me?
     
  14. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    And exactly what does that have to do with this? even if the accusation of 300 children killed by WP is true?

    I have the read the story and the connection to WP and the deaths of the children is spurious at best, the first paragraph;

    http://www.almanar.com.lb/newssite/NewsDetails.aspx?id=69846&language=en


    Israel Excessively Uses White Phosphorus Shells on Gaza

    11/01/2009 On the sixteenth day of Israel’s war on Gaza, fighters jets, vessels and tanks continued to pound the Gaza strip overnight into Sunday.
    More houses have been targeted, more civilians have fell martyrs and injured in this day’s excessive use of internationally prohibited white phosphorus shells.
    Palestinian medics said at least four Palestinians were killed and dozens wounded early Sunday. Doctors said burn wounds were caused by banned white phosphorous shells, with Israel denying the charge. Exposure to white phosphorus may cause burns and irritation, liver, kidney, heart, lung, or bone damage, and death.
    Indications that white phosphorous is being used in Gaza follow the sighting of thick white smoke in the sky above the Palestinian territory.
    Israel had used white Phosphorus shell in its war on Lebanon in 2006. Under the Geneva Treaty of 1980, white phosphorous is banned as a weapon of war in civilian areas because of the severe injuries it causes.
    At least 897 Palestinians, including some 300 children and 100 women, have been killed so far with another 4,000 people injured since the beginning of the war 16 days ago.

    Nothing to connect the death to the use of WP in the story, just a statement of the number of deaths since the beginning of the incursion into Gaza.

    Great use of hyperbole, and insinuation.

    Phosphorus (white, or yellow) is known as a pyrophoric, meaning that it self ignites in atmosphere, especally at high humidity levels.

    Now lets look at the construction of a M825A1, and guess what the injuries don't match the shells capabilities, as the pay load is 116 WP saturated felt wedges, so you don't have any powdered WP to coat or fragments, just smoke.

    Description
    The 155 mm M825A1 smoke WP is a separate-loading base-ejection smoke-producing projectile. It uses a body virtually identical to that of the 155 mm M483A1 DPICM. The projectile has a 155 mm M483A1 DPICM aluminium ogive section and expulsion charge, a forged-steel modified M483A1 body and a threaded steel ring and aluminium body base. Inside the body is a hermetically sealed canister containing 116 WP saturated felt wedges, each 190 mm thick and separated into four quadrants of 29 wedges each. A 63.5 mm diameter burster charge containing approximately 45 g of Composition B runs the entire length of the canister's centre cavity.In operation, the nose-mounted time fuze is set to function at a selected point during the projectile's trajectory. When the fuze functions, it ignites a 51 g expulsion charge of M10 propellant which creates sufficient internal pressure within the ogive to push off the body base and eject the canister. The expulsion charge also ignites a 100 ms pyrotechnic delay, enabling the canister to be fully ejected from the carrier body before the burster charge (21.2 g of Composition A5) ignites to break open the canister and release the WP-saturated felt wedges. The total weight of WP in the wedges is 5.78 kg. A launch-activated safe-and-arm module from an M739 Point-Detonating (PD) fuze separates the forward end of the main burster charge from the heat-sensitive pyrotechnic-delay element.In less than 45 seconds from the moment they meet the air, the separated felt wedges start to burn and produce

    With the old style rounds, which ejected White Phosphorus as a payload did this, and yes the injuries would be consistent with that type of Round but the M110, M110A1 and M110A2 rounds were not the rounds found.

    That is why we went to the new style round, to minimize injuries to personnel, theirs and ours.

    Description

    The 155 mm M110, M110A1 and M110A2 smoke White Phosphorus (WP) projectiles are separate-loading munitions. They use a hollow forged-steel shell with the same external configuration as that used on the 155 mm M107 HE projectile. The shape is ogival (6/12 calibre radius head, or crh), with a boat tail for aerodynamic efficiency and a welded-steel baseplate. Close to the base is a gilding-metal drive band protected by a grommet until just before loading. A threaded lifting plug closes the nose fuze cavity for handling and storage. The shell contains approximately 7.07 kg of WP, although other fillings have been used. A centrally located burster charge extends the length of the shell interior. On the 155 mm M110 smoke WP, the burster charge is the M6, containing 186 g of Tetrytol. On the 155 mm M110A1 and M110A2 smoke WP projectiles, the burster charge is the M54A1, containing 208 g of Composition B5. On the M110A1, the end of the burster tube is sealed with a plastic plug; on the M110A2, the sealing plug is aluminium. The 155 mm M110 smoke WP family is normally fitted with a nose-mounted Point-Detonating (PD) fuze. On impact, the fuze ignites the internal burster charge, which then ruptures the shell casing to release the WP filling. As it contacts the air, the WP ignites to produce thick clouds of white smoke. When stored, the 155 mm smoke WP series projectiles have to be kept on their bases to prevent migration of the WP,
     
    Last edited: Apr 3, 2009
  15. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    So is it barbaric, murderous and terrorist to release WP over a civilian refuge? Or not?
     
  16. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    According to the IHL depending on it's purpose it can be illegal or not illegal, all depending on what type of WP round is used, and its purpose.

    That is why we designed the M825A1 to meet the requirements of the IHL.

    http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/FULL/515?OpenDocument

    However, the situation is not as clear as Human Rights Watch would like to portray. Firstly, the use of white phosphorous in civilian areas is hardly unlawful in the categorical sense. The Protocol on Prohibitions or Restrictions on the Use of Incendiary Weapons (Protocol III) does prohibit the use of incendiary weapons against civilian targets, and also their use against military targets in civilian areas. (There is an absolute prohibition of such attacks by air, and a general prohibition on those from the ground ‘except when such military objective is clearly separated from the concentration of civilians and all feasible precautions are taken’ to prevent civilian casualties.)

    Protocol III specifically exempts ‘Munitions which may have incidental incendiary effects, such as illuminants, tracers, smoke or signalling systems’ (Article 1.1.b.i), and only concerns itself with ‘any weapon or munition which is primarily designed to set fire to objects or to cause burn injury to persons’ (Article 1.1). The vast majority of white phosphorous munitions come under the umbrella of the former and not the latter, so their use cannot be said to be prohibited under the protocol’s terms.

    Though some white phosphorous weapons clearly do qualify as incendiary weapons according to Protocol III, the majority do not, and their use in civilian areas is therefore not unlawful.

    And still what does this have to do with a Murderious attack against childern with a ax?

    The answer would appear to be no:

    “In some of the strikes in Gaza it’s pretty clear that phosphorus was used,” Herby [head of the ICRC's mines-arms unit] told The Associated Press. “But it’s not very unusual to use phosphorus to create smoke or illuminate a target. We have no evidence to suggest it’s being used in any other way.”

    In response, the Israeli military said Tuesday that it “wishes to reiterate that it uses weapons in compliance with international law, while strictly observing that they be used in accordance with the type of combat and its characteristics.”

    Herby said that using phosphorus to illuminate a target or create smoke is legitimate under international law, and that there was no evidence the Jewish state was intentionally using phosphorus in a questionable way, such as burning down buildings or consciously putting civilians at risk.
     
  17. aaa Registered Senior Member

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    You may ask me, I got nothing to hide and I already made my point. I condemn the idea of killing innocent people in general, let it be Palestinians or Israelis.
     
  18. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    I'm not asking what the IHL or anyone else has said. I'm asking YOU.

    Is the release of WP [made in the USA, I presume] over civilian refuge areas barbaric, murderous and terrorist?

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  19. Buffalo Roam Registered Senior Member

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    No just Ghettos for the infidels, much like the Warsaw Ghetto, a place where you can always find the Infidel when you need to kill some one in the latest Muslim Pogrom for Islam.
     
  20. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Its called a mohalla, look it up. The Jews call it Gush.

    And note that the native Americans are minorities in their own land, still fighting for water rights.
     
  21. aaa Registered Senior Member

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    I don't believe you.
    You know it was a Palestinian who did this, but you wont admit it because of your Pro-Palestinian views.
     
  22. S.A.M. uniquely dreadful Valued Senior Member

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    Its okay, I don't particularly care what you believe. You're evidently not the kind who goes by evidence.

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    http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/130730
     
  23. spidergoat Venued Serial Membership Valued Senior Member

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    And what about all those tribes that the currently existing tribes wiped out in order to take their land?
     
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