Is consciousness fundamental?

Discussion in 'General Philosophy' started by matthew809, Feb 8, 2015.

  1. river

    What of the extreme primative consciousness though ?

    Consciousness is from life energy , not from matter

    Matter , in the macro , galaxies , suns , planets and moons , allow life energy to take hold , to manifest as a physical entity , which has adaptive properties and grows that adaptation through experience

    Consciousness is not so much fundamental as it is inevitable
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  3. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    There is no such thing as life energy.
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  5. river

    So inorganic chemistry is the same as organic chemistry ?
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  7. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    I am guessing with a strange reply you have not taken any general or organic chemistry courses.
  8. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    I guess he's talking about chemical energy, which is not woo woo life energy.
  9. origin Heading towards oblivion Valued Senior Member

    Which is exactly the same energy whether it is organic or inorganic chemistry!

    Edit to add: He doesn't appear to know what he is talking about.
  10. river

    No I'm not talking about chemical energy

    I'm talking about an energy that , uses , chemical energy to manifest its self . But is entirely different kind of energy
  11. spidergoat Liddle' Dick Tater Valued Senior Member

    So what is it? How is it measured?
  12. river

    Life energy is the energy flow within the molecule and the shape of the flow and the chemicals that make up the molecule .

    Measured by the energy flow
  13. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    I'm not reading this whole thread, but anyway:

    Matter Creation

    Matter creation is the process inverse to particle annihilation. It is the conversion of massless particles into one or more massive particles. This process is the time reversal of annihilation. Since all known massless particles are bosons and the most familiar massive particles are fermions, usually what is considered is the process which converts two bosons (e.g. photons) into two fermions (e.g., an electronpositron pair). This process is known as pair production.

    Consciousness is way out! Well, for some it is.
  14. Bells Staff Member

    Mod Note

    My apologies. This thread was accidentally moved to the Cesspool while I was clearing out a spam thread. It has been moved back to General Philosophy as soon as the error was noticed. My apologies to everyone participating in this thread.
  15. wellwisher Banned Banned

    Consciousness is a logical extension of the living state. If you look at life, life accumulates energy. Our human bodies store protein and fats, both with contain caloric energy value. As a tree grows, the energy value of the wood increases with its size.

    Inanimate matter goes the other way, toward lower energy value. Once we harvest the tree and it is no longer alive, wood moves toward a lowering energy state, due to oxidation, fire, rot, and other things. But when it was alive, the tree kept adding energy value to itself; grows.

    Another feature of life has to do with order. Life is ordered; low structural entropy. Most of nature will prefer to increase entropy; rotting tree, but life use enzymes to turn small molecules, with higher entropy, into polymers and enzymes, which fold into exact arrangements. The templates on DNA are designed for order and not randomness. Randomness is when inanimate matter interferes; carcinogen.

    Entropy is a state function, meaning a particular state of matter, will contain a certain level of entropy. For example, water vapor or steam has higher entropy than liquid water which has higher entropy than ice. The state defines the magnitude of the entropy. If we specify the state in a more exact way, such as liquid water at 5C with two atmosphere of pressure, this has a more specific value.

    Going from the inanimate state of small molecules like CO2 and H2O, into the structures of the living state, such as a tree, causes a drop in entropy for these small molecules.

    These two contrary directions of the living state, relative to direction of inanimate matter, sets the stage for life and consciusness. Life is increasing energy and lowering entropy, with the drive of inanimate matter to lower energy and increase entropy.

    This schema also applies to cellular state called neurons, with the rest neuron at highest potential energy of all cellular states; membrane potential. This state is also one of lowered entropy, due to the segregation of cations. Cations, left to their own devices would want to blend, but life lowers the entropy of the cations into a state of segregation.

    The die is cast with firing of neurons the path of inanimate matter. The neuron fight back, resetting the potentials. The second law requires that the net entropy has to increase, causing a constant tweaking of the memory pathways as the cells reset.

    Consciousness is also a state function, that requires material order; memory, to maintain its integrity. It also needs a flux of creative adaptive change; the push toward higher entropy. Picture water is pumped up a fountain to the top; highest energy and lowest entropy inside the hose. When it reaches the top energy lowers due to gravity and the water path diverges down the fountain; increase entropy. When it reaches the bottom, it is confined again and pumped back. The dynamics of the fountain is something that is always changing yet always appears about the same.
  16. Light Travelling It's a girl O lord in a flatbed Ford Registered Senior Member

    matter is energy... energy gives rise to consciousness.
  17. Magical Realist Valued Senior Member

    “Consciousness cannot be accounted for in physical terms. For consciousness is absolutely fundamental. It cannot be accounted for in terms of anything else.”
    Erwin Schrödinger
    Light Travelling likes this.
  18. wellwisher Banned Banned

    Life creates order; life lowers entropy to form ordered structures. Life also accumulates and stores molecular energy; fats, wood, protein. On the other hand, the push of inanimate matter is to lower energy and to increase entropy. A situation is created for the universe to try and reverse the direction of life and life to try and reverse the direction of the universe. Humans carry on the traditions of life; build a dam to structure the water into a lake. Nature tries reverse this as the dam materials wear out.

    The brain is part of life, with our memory and personality firmware ordered structures. These see the potential for inanimate matter. Our neuron firing lowers the energy, while modification of memory, adds entropy to the memory. Life resets the neurons. These two sets of opposing principles are constant and continuous like a fountain. In the case of neurons, much of the structural energy and entropy potential is connected to cation segregation. The reversal by inanimate matter, causes currents.

    The conscious mind, because it can think; fire memory via will power, apart from external sensory stimulus, would be considered part of inanimate matter. The ancients would say opposes god or life. The conscious mind will help lower energy; induce neuron firing and it can increase memory entropy via imagination and subjectivity. Life sets material potentials, with the consciousness mind connected to inanimate matter, having the need to reverse these; uniqueness. The inner self and the unconscious mind is more about order and acts more on behalf of life; ordered by DNA.

    Water plays a huge role in consciousness. Since water is left out of the analysis of biology, in proportion to its contribution to life, conscious appears like a mystery using only organics. This should raise a yellow flag.

    Water is the push behind both life order and inanimate matter entropy. If we add oil to water and agitate we get an emulsion; maximum entropy. If we let it sit, it will separate into two ordered layers; lowered entropy. If we add salt to water, the salt will spread out uniformly to maximize entropy. Water plays on both teams, and acts as the intermediate between the living and the nonliving states, so change is continuous; consciousness.
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2015
  19. Intersect Registered Member

    Type-A Materialism
    There is no epistemic gap between physical and phenomenal truths.

    Solving the easy problems of consciousness solves the hard problem.

    Type-B Materialism
    There is an unbridgeable epistemic gap between physical and phenomenal truths, but there is no ontological gap.

    Type-C Materialism
    There is an apparent epistemic gap which will eventually be closed.

    If none of these brands of materialism succeed, then we are back to square-one. There seem to be two possibilities. Either consciousness is a fundamental part of the fabric of the physical universe, or it is necessitated by more fundamental features of the physical universe.

    The problem with this is the integration of phenomenal properties in a causally closed physical universe.

    Type-D Dualism
    Deny that the universe is causally closed.

    Type-E Dualism
    Accept causal closure, but deny that phenomenal properties have any causal role.

    Type-F Monism
    Accept causal closure, and accept a causal role for phenomenal properties.

    Type-Q Materialism
    (Q for “Quine”), according to Chalmers (2003a), rejects the kinds of distinctions needed to formulate both the neo-dualist arguments and the type-A , type-B, and type-C materialist responses to them. Such rejected distinctions include the conceptual vs. the empirical, the a priori vs. the a posteriori, and the contingent vs. the necessary.

    Z for Zombie or P-zombies, A philosophical zombie is a theoretical individual that possesses conceptual constructs - by virtue of their ability to act in anyway human - in the absence of phenomenal experience. Hierarchical Systems Theory explains why conceptual awareness is a characteristic that emerges only as part of a hierarchy of systems constructs. It is for this reason that a philosophical zombie cannot exist.

    Universal Bizarreness
    Is the view that well-developed metaphysical approaches to the mind will inevitably conflict sharply with common sense

    Universal Dubiety
    is the view that all of the broad approaches to the metaphysics of mind - materialism, dualism, idealism, or some rejection or compromise alternative - are dubious, none warranting credence much above 50%.

    is the view that something bizarre and undeserving of credence must be among the core truths about the mind
    Last edited: May 2, 2015
  20. Intersect Registered Member

    Refrence credits for the above goes to
    Eric Schwitzgebeln, Mark Pharoah,pete Mandik, Don Berkich, they easily defined it better then I could not making it overly complex.
  21. wellwisher Banned Banned

    There is no clear cut definition of consciousness consistent to all of science. The result is one is trying to integrate a black box, that has certain input and output effects, in the context of a theory of life that evolves by throwing dice. One is asking for logic from science that is based on a casino.

    Any logical explanation would require first knowing what consciousness is, in terms of cause and effect. It also would need to assume life evolved in a casual way. If not, consciousness should be just another winning lottery ticket, which could have appeared in any number of random forms, just like life in other solvents. A logical explanation and interface for consciousness needs a logic model for evolution.

    I started a topic in philosophy called; evolution and timeline, that shows where science begin the story of evolution, will mold the fundamental assumptions that support the theory. If you need logic, you need to start the theory of evolution back all the way to inanimate matter, eons before life emerges. If you start late, such as at replicators, a lottery approach will be the default. If we assume this origin, consciousness is just another jackpot without any logic. It would assume selection of sorts; secondary thinning of the herd.
  22. river

    I see your point

    But consciousness needs a place inwhich to take hold , a place inwhich it can grow and mature

    Hence , consciousness needs a place of solid foundation , which is what planets provide

    Think of it , planets ( matter ) , life forms and is allowed to take hold and form , into it's potential

    If consciousness is the only thing that can actually exist ? Then what are the principles of why , consciousness can exist ? And where could consciousness exist without the macro-existence of matter , planets etc. This what I'm getting at in my above thoughts
    Last edited: Jun 5, 2015
  23. wellwisher Banned Banned

    Consciousness is an artifact of neuron design. Rest neurons exist at highest potential. A neuron uses 90% of their energy pumping and exchanging cations, building a membrane potential. When neurons fire, this stored potential energy is released. Computer memory is different, in that rest memory exists at lowest potential; makes it stable. This memory is not supposed to change;long term storage, unless we add the energy.

    What neurons bring to the table is firing allows a flow of energy, downward from the top of an energy hill toward lower potential. When a neuron fires, it is like dumping water down from the top of a hill, where it flows down pathways, toward lower potential, able to impact other neurons on the way. This energy flow is based on logic connected to physical laws; natural energy laws and not arbitrary artificial logic. Water flowing down a hill finds its way without thinking.

    The wild card variable is the pumping and exchange of cations, by the neuron, causes sodium ions to concentrated outside and potassium ions inside neurons. This lowers ionic entropy, since left to their own devices, these two cations were prefer blend on both sides. They will not self segregate. The segregation lowers entropy and takes energy, via ATP and enzymes.

    If we add this, we not only dump the water down the hill, where it seeks a lower level, but the entropy, that has been lowered, tries to increase, once again, at the same time. The net result is the water analogy is flowing down the hill, but not exactly the same way each time. There will be subtle changes. This increase of entropy is what makes consciousness different from a robot following a logic train; deliberate deviation than follows natural logic. This is connected to water because water structures integrate entropy, enthalpy and volume.

    But in the same token, since the brain uses energy potential, based on energy flowing from higher to lower potential, deviation of the path, still reaches the bottom of the hill. This adds a base consistency, even with change.

    An analogy is the fountain head may spray randomly and cascade the water in various ways, so there is always subtle changes. But in the end, it all collects in the bowl; end point consistency. At some level, you always remain you, no matter what. While all the changes, experiences and twists of fate, add pathways for day to day life in the context of memory and real time data, that is centered on you.

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