H.R.5181

Discussion in 'Conspiracies' started by Bowser, Jan 15, 2017.

  1. FatFreddy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    Our basic disagreement is that I maintain that the US is an imperialist power in the world that overthrows democratically elected governments and installs puppet presidents who then let American companies steal the country's resources. That's the basic message of this website.
    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/

    The mainstream media in the US maintain that we're the good guys and we only bring about good in the world.

    You maintain that the image that the mainstream media projects about the US reflects reality. Smedley Butler seems like a credible source to me. What he says goes against what the mainstream media tell us. Please give your view on that.


    Here's some more info from that webpage. These people give their real identities.
    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/William_Blum.html
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chomsky american imperialism
    https://www.youtube.com/results?q=economic hitman
     
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  3. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,908
    And? If you have a point, make it.
    I didn't ask for a propaganda garbage dump of specious web sites. I asked you to make a point and back it up with credible verifiable evidence.
     
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  5. FatFreddy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    The words of an American General who witnessed and participated in American interventions is about the best I can do.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smedley_Butler

    Tell us if what this guy says at least makes you a little bit curious.
    http://www.peace.ca/smedleybutler.htm
    https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

    I can understand someone's not simply taking it as fact but ruling it out with no investigation which is what you seem to be doing is just silly. Tell us what you think of what Smedley Butler said. What he said is consistent with the other info I've been posting.
     
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  7. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    22,908
    LOL...and what were the words of this American general and why are those words germane to your assertion? Referencing a wiki link ain't gonna cut it comrade. Your American general died almost a century ago. How is that relevant to today? Butler was just one of many American generals, they aren't like your beloved Russian generals. They all have their own minds. They think for themselves.

    If you have something to say, say it and stop referencing specious web sites if you want to be taken seriously. If your point is to complain about the military industrial complex, fine; join the line. There is a long line of Americans who have complained about the American military industrial complex, including an American president, President Eisenhower among them. It's not just generals who have complained, American presidents have also complained. That's how it works in democracies comrade. People talk and people complain, and thoughts are discussed and examined.

    What's your point comrade?
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2017
  8. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    14,549
    Then you haven't read much mainstream media.
     
  9. FatFreddy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    I posted an essay and a short online book written by him. Here are the links again.
    http://www.peace.ca/smedleybutler.htm
    https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html

    Read the info and you can see his words. After you've done that, get back to me.
     
  10. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,908
    And? If you have a point, make it. As previously pointed out to you, Butler does a very long time ago. You don't think things have changed? You don't think the world has changed?

    Butler lived in a different era. He lived in colonial era. Are you saying things have not changed?
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2017
  11. FatFreddy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    As I said before, I've spent twenty seven years of my life living abroad (Mexico and Spain). I've spoken to a lot of people from third world countries who tell me that the US installs puppet presidents in those countries who then let American companies steal their resources. Look at the info I linked to in post #21. Things haven't changed very much. The US is the bad guy in the world. That the alternative press is informing Americans of this is a pretty big problem for the US government so they want to discredit it. That's where this "False News" thing is coming from; the US government wants the American people to think that this info is false news.
     
  12. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,908
    So because of your alleged anecdotal experiences, you are an expert are you? Well maybe you the people you have been allegedly hanging around aren't representative of everyone. The hard data says that is the case.

    The hard data says you are wrong:

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    Most people living across the globe have a very favorable view of the United States. Until Trump, the US has been a very credible government. Unlike your beloved Mother Russia, the US doesn't control the press or own the press. Unlike your beloved Mother Russia, the US government isn't in the media business. The press is free to report and say whatever they want to say whenever they want to say. It's in our Constitution. Unlike your beloved Mother Russia, Western journalists don't have a shortened life expectancy. Exotic poisons down't magically find there way into the bodies of journalists who are critical of the state.
     
    Last edited: Feb 4, 2017
  13. FatFreddy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    If that's what this research center says...
    http://www.pewresearch.org/

    ...it's just part of the big public-relations machine whose job is to keep Americans brainwashed.
    http://www.sciforums.com/threads/psychology-of-conspiracy-theorists.144995/page-18#post-3408609

    In other words, it's lies.


    So you acknowledge that what Smedley Butler said reflected reality, is that right? If so, tell us why we don't learn about that in history class.


    Here's something you should read.
    http://www.michaelparenti.org/Imperialism101.html
    (excerpt)
    ------------------------------------------------
    Of the various notions about imperialism circulating today in the United States, the dominant view is that it does not exist. Imperialism is not recognized as a legitimate concept, certainly not in regard to the United States. One may speak of "Soviet imperialism" or "nineteenth-century British imperialism" but not of U.S. imperialism. A graduate student in political science at most universities in this country would not be granted the opportunity to research U.S. imperialism, on the grounds that such an undertaking would not be scholarly. While many people throughout the world charge the United States with being an imperialist power, in this country persons who talk of U.S. imperialism are usually judged to be mouthing ideological blather.
    ------------------------------------------------

    http://www.prisonplanet.com/analysis_louise_01_03_03_mockingbird.html
    (excerpt)
    ------------------------------------------------
    The Association for Responsible Dissent estimates that 6 million people had died by 1987 as a result of CIA covert operations, called an "American Holocaust" by former State Department official William Blum.
    ------------------------------------------------

    http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/CIAtimeline.html
    (excerpt)
    ------------------------------------------------
    CIA operations follow the same recurring script. First, American business interests abroad are threatened by a popular or democratically elected leader. The people support their leader because he intends to conduct land reform, strengthen unions, redistribute wealth, nationalize foreign-owned industry, and regulate business to protect workers, consumers and the environment. So, on behalf of American business, and often with their help, the CIA mobilizes the opposition. First it identifies right-wing groups within the country (usually the military), and offers them a deal: "We'll put you in power if you maintain a favorable business climate for us." The Agency then hires, trains and works with them to overthrow the existing government (usually a democracy). It uses every trick in the book: propaganda, stuffed ballot boxes, purchased elections, extortion, blackmail, sexual intrigue, false stories about opponents in the local media, infiltration and disruption of opposing political parties, kidnapping, beating, torture, intimidation, economic sabotage, death squads and even assassination. These efforts culminate in a military coup, which installs a right-wing dictator. The CIA trains the dictator’s security apparatus to crack down on the traditional enemies of big business, using interrogation, torture and murder. The victims are said to be "communists," but almost always they are just peasants, liberals, moderates, labor union leaders, political opponents and advocates of free speech and democracy. Widespread human rights abuses follow.

    This scenario has been repeated so many times that the CIA actually teaches it in a special school, the notorious "School of the Americas." (It opened in Panama but later moved to Fort Benning, Georgia.) Critics have nicknamed it the "School of the Dictators" and "School of the Assassins." Here, the CIA trains Latin American military officers how to conduct coups, including the use of interrogation, torture and murder.
    ------------------------------------------------
     
  14. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,908
    AND? Is there a point buried in there somewhere? You are obfuscating again.

    How is that reference related to your assertion? The fact is we have data from a number of sources which clearly refutes your anecdotal assertion, including my previous reference to Pew research.

    Oh, so now the truth comes out. You don't like empiricism. You don't like credible sources. Instead you prefer specious web sites which don't even have the the guts to divulge who they are. Oh yeah, that makes so much sense.

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    Well maybe you weren't taught about mercantilism and colonialism in school, or maybe you weren't paying attention, but I was.

    What you are guilty of is living in another century and another time. First off, you are not recognizing history as it was, and then you are not recognizing that things have changed over the course of the last century. You seem oblivious to the fact that prior to WW II the United States was an isolationist country. Americans didn't want to be involved in WW I or WW II but was dragged into those wars for a number of reasons.

    And after WW II the US along with key allies formed the United Nations, NATO, the World Court, the World Bank, and other organizations to reduce the likelihood of such wars from happening again, and for almost a century they have worked.

    I don't need another specious conspiracy web site in my life. I've read enough of them from folks like you to last me a life time. I prefer reputable sources from credible individuals, not specious web sources.

    Yeah, more specious conspiracy nonsense. That dog, doesn't hunt for people fully functional brains. And none of that changes the fact that your assertion with respect to the US was clearly wrong as evidenced by the data.
     
  15. FatFreddy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    My argument is that you're basing your views on false info. The mainstream media are just a big brainwashing machine to keep Americans in the dark. How much of this info have you looked at?
    http://www.sciforums.com/threads/psychology-of-conspiracy-theorists.144995/page-18#post-3408609


    How is your simply believing the official story empiricism? You're simply taking the word of the US government.

    Yes. I like creidible sources. Here are a few.
    https://chomsky.info/
    http://petras.lahaine.org/
    http://www.michaelparenti.org/
    http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Herman /Edward_Herman.html


    I think all of the authors of the articles to which I linked put their names on their articles. Most of them are well-known. There might be a few in this website...
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/

    ...who have to use false names as they are journalist that work for mainstream newspapers and they may lose their jobs if their bosses find out they write for the alternative press.

    Give me a break. The info I linked to in post #26 would come as a complete surprise to anybody who just reads newspapers and took all the required history courses in high school.


    You're trying to muddy the waters. The US practiced imperialism before, during, and after WW1 and WW2. The issue is not how they got dragged into the war but revisionist historians tell a different story on that too.

    An alternate look at WW1 & WW2 (p-1 of 4)

    http://northerntruthseeker.blogspot.se/2012/03/more-important-history-revealed-how.html


    See above.
     
  16. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,908
    Fine, prove it with credible facts from credible sources and a well reasoned argument. More specious sources, more self references, and more illogical arguments, i.e. fallacious argument, aren't gonna cut it comrade.

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    I've given you hard data from credible sources which show you're full of bull crap, and you don't like it. That's not my problem comrade. That's' your problem, and instead of trying to obfuscate and personally attacking me, you should be doing some really hard and difficult thinking examining your biases and "alternate facts".
     
  17. FatFreddy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    What you're saying doesn't fit what's happening. You seemed to agree that the info Smedley Butler presented reflected reality (see post #26). Doesn't that mean he presents credible facts and that he's a credible source? Then, you tried to say that what he said isn't any different from what we learn in school and read in newspapers and watch on the news which is laughable. That pretty much destroyed your credibility. What Smedley Butler said is consistent with the other info I posted.

    Here's one more for you. Do YouTube searches on "Adolf Hitler: Explains His Reasons For Invading The Soviet Union" and "Adolf Hitler Explains Reasons For Invading Poland". Listen to what he says to the German people and soldiers. He may have been lying to the German people and soldiers to get them to unknowingly fight for an usjust cause but at least we know what they were thinking as the German army invaded Poland and Russia. Americans are taught that Hitler said to the German people, "We should invade Eastern Europe to expand German territory" and the German people said, "Good idea, let's do it". The German people and soldiers believed (perhaps wrongly) they were righting old wrongs and defending their territory. That is one confirmed lie that the American government tells the American people.

    If you don't simply recognize that the US government lied big time to the American people on this issue, your credibility will be totally shot no matter how patronizing and authoritative your attitude is. Please comment on what he said in those two speeches.
     
  18. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

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    YOU kinda skipped over the hundred years or so of time between Butler's experiences and today. And none of that changes the fact that the previously presented data clearly shows you are wrong. Unfortunately for you comrade facts matter.

    Oh, well who confirmed it? Where is your evidence it was a) a lie; and b) it was told to all Americans; and c) who told it? The fact is, that's not what I was taught. You make these extraordinary assertions for which you have absolutely no evidence and that should be troubling to you. But it isn't.

    Well you haven't proven the American government lied to the American people on that issue...oops. You cannot just pull something out of left field and say it's true therefore it must be true. That works with ideologues, but it doesn't work elsewhere. Second, even if what you say were true, which it isn't. It isn't relevant. Seventy seven years have transpired since WW II began. Prior to WW II the US was an isolationist nation. It didn't want to be involved in foreign wars. Japan and Nazi Germany declared war on the United States. Imperial Japan attacked the United State first and declared war on the US after the attack. Nazi German quickly followed by declaring war on the US. That's how the US became involved in WW II. There isn't anything ambiguous about it.
     
  19. FatFreddy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    joepistole

    Your credibility is pretty much shot now and you can't save it with a patronizing authoritative attitude. Look at these excerpts from the links I posted.

    https://www.ratical.org/ratville/CAH/warisaracket.html
    (excerpt)
    -------------------------------------------------
    WAR is a racket. It always has been.

    It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

    A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.
    -------------------------------------------------

    http://www.peace.ca/smedleybutler.htm
    (excerpt)
    --------------------------------------------------
    I helped make Mexico, especially Tampico, safe for American oil interests in
    1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank
    boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central
    American republics for the benefits of Wall Street. The record of racketeering
    is long. I helped purify Nicaragua for the international banking house of
    Brown Brothers in 1909-1912 (where have I heard that name before?). I brought
    light to the Dominican Republic for American sugar interests in 1916. In China
    I helped to see to it that Standard Oil went its way unmolested.
    --------------------------------------------------

    There's no place in the US where this info is taught to the public. It's the opposite of what Americans are t taught and you said you learned it in history class in post #31.

    You tried to obfuscate this issue but it's simply too clear to obfuscate. Americans are not taught that the US was a colonial power that stole the resources of other countries back in the time of Smedley Butler.

    You're having a hard time obfuscating this one.

    Hey viewers. Make sure you listen to these two speeches by Hitler. Do a YouTube search on "Adolf Hitler: Explains His Reasons For Invading The Soviet Union" and "Adolf Hitler Explains Reasons For Invading Poland"


    Americans are taught that the German people and soldiers had world conquest in mind during WW2. Those two speeches are a real shocker as they show what they German people and soldiers were really thinking. There are some things that are simply too clear to obfuscate and if you try to obfuscate them anyway, you just end up looking silly.


    Do a YouTube search on "Hitler's War - What the Historians Neglect to Mention" to see the revisionist version of WW2. I'm not in a position to know how much of it is true but it makes a lot more sense than the official version.
     
  20. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,908
    LOL....

    Says the guy you relies only upon specious web sources and ignores empirical data from credible sources. The fact is the previously referenced data clearly shows you are wrong, and you keep ignoring it, and keep bringing up all this specious crap. Conspiracy theories aren't a substitute for fact and reason comrade.

    Unfortunately for you comrade bold face and enlarged letters ain't gonna cut it. Fact and reason are going to cut it and you have none. What you have is a pile of conspiracy theories from specious web sites.
     
  21. FatFreddy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    I'd like y0u to make something clear here. Do you think that Smedley Butler is a credible source of info? I had the idea that you did.
     
  22. FatFreddy Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    498
    Here's what the alternative press says about this fake news thing.
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/mainstream-media-all-the-fake-news-thats-fit-to-print/5574413
    http://www.globalresearch.ca/search?q=fake news&x=11&y=14

    It seems that the US government is having a crisis. The alternative press is informing them of facts that they don't want them to be informed about. They are calling objective analyses and reporting "Fake News". I think their success rate will be pretty low.

    I recommend these analysts if you want to really understand what's happening and why it's happening.
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ralph nader
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=webster tarpley
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=corbett report
    https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=chris hedges

    Can anybody recommend any others?
     
  23. joepistole Deacon Blues Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    22,908
    Yeah, use fake news sites to debunk legitimate web sites. What a strategy.

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    The fact is is, unlike your beloved Mother Russia, there is no one or single Western news source. There are many and they span the gamut. You have the fake news and conspiracy sites, e.g. the ones you reference, and many others.

    Why do you think the US government is "having a crisis"? Please be specific and provide credible proofs, i.e. something more than because Fatfreddie and his cousin said so.

    http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Globalresearch
     

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