George Zimmerman found Not Guilty.

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Saturnine Pariah, Jul 14, 2013.

  1. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

    That would all be fine if not for the fact that Zimmerman didn't shoot Martin until after Martin had him on the ground, with a broken nose (and without having wrestled the gun away from him). Again, it isn't impossible that what you suggest is what really happened, but it isn't very likely and more to the point is very far from proven beyond a reasonable doubt.
    No, any charge requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt. There is certainly much more than reasonable doubt that Zimmerman started the fight.
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  3. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Suppose Martin was a female? I'm female, and if a man is following me through a neighborhood for no reason, I will interpret it as antagonistic. As predatory even. Why does a man deserve any less "respect?"
    Granted, the scenario at the end, had Martin been a female, might not have played out in the same way but if we are just talking about following someone...why is it ok for a man to follow a man but it isn't ok for a man to follow a woman?

    If "following" someone isn't a crime?

    You will say it's a moot point but it's relevant as to GZ following a teenager who wasn't doing anything wrong. Why was GZ's behavior not deemed antagonistic and/or predatory?

    Because he's a neighborhood watch guy? The guidelines in most neighborhood watch communities stipulate to not take the law into one's own hands.

    It just seems like so many things were just dismissed as having no merit, and I don't understand why.

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  5. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

    Perhaps. But that still isn't a fight.
    Women are viewed as weaker than men, so it is viewed as more threatening to follow a woman than to follow a man, even though neither automatically constitutes a threat. Size does matter. And that's why the media distortions about what Martin and Zimmerman looked like were so harmful.
    Zimmerman's actions were not friendly. We know that and it is not disputed. But that really doesn't matter. Evidence implies he didn't start the fight, so couldn't be convicted of manslaughter.

    It sounds like what you are arguing is intended to show that Martin was justified in attacking Zimmerman. Even if we set aside the fact that there was no size mismatch that would allow Martin to feel a meaningful danger and the fact that his words were of anger, not fear, the irony here is that people are putting the Stand Your Ground shoe on the wrong foot. If Martin considered Zimmerman a threat (that a normal person would find reasonable), SYG would allow Martin to attack Zimmerman rather than retreat, which is what evidence indicates he did. But since Zimmerman wasn't doing anything illegal at the time, it would still be legal for Zimmerman to shoot him. In that situation, it could be possible for either to be acquitted on SYG bases. But I think shooting someone without there having been a physical fight would be difficult to get acquitted for.
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  7. kwhilborn Banned Banned

    @ Wegs,
    Moreso if you were alone in the woods, but this was a public pathway completely surrounded by townhomes. How many neighbors responded to the screams of Zimmerman? A lot. So even though you felt unsafe on the pathway there should be no need for a fight or flight response.

    Another thing is that when Zimmerman got out of the car and started down the pathway Treyvon had already vanished from sight and had no idea Zimmerman was following him still. Treyvons Girlfriend said he arrived home and thought he had lost Zimmerman.

    Zimmerman did NOT even go down the middle path towards Treyvons house, he went straight at a pathway intersection to check for a street sign. It was while walking back to his truck Treyvon attacked him. This was the first time Zimmerman had seen martin since he left the truck. There was only a 2-3 minute gap between when Zimmerman hung up his phone with police and the fighting was called into 911 by neighbors.

    Treyvons GF said he had returned home but went back to confront Zimmerman, Treyvons Brother in law said he returned home, and his aunt said he had returned home and was sitting on the porch. This is all very important because if he was safe at home why did he go back to mess with Zimmerman? The fight was 100 yards North of his home.

    Another thing. Even though you are a girl, it is perfectly legal for a serial rapist to prance around behind you singing "Rudolph the Red Nosed reindeer" while slowly unbuttoning his shirt. It is a fact we live in a world with crazy people. You could call police, security, or visit a block parent home or walk to anyone you see outside, but you cannot legally pepper spray the guy unless he was assaulting you. Crazy people have rights as well.

    My Mother had a threatening guy approach her car window while she was looking for her lost dog. It turned out to be a cop. Why would you assume the person to be predatory. He could be security, police, or a neighbor wanting to prevent another rape along the same laneway.

    Court Transcripts
    So if he was near home and had lost Zimmerman, how did he get all the way back up to the T-intersection 100 yards North of his home.

    Treyvon went back looking for trouble it appears.

    Listen at 28 seconds in here:

    Treyvon had come in the back gate! The Police never questioned him.

    Seems like Treyvon made it home was in his backyard sitting on the porch (also Mother in Law testimony), and had some money left over to help with pizza.

    If these three people are truthful then Treyvon not only made it home , but left again and went 100 yards back towards Zimmerman for some mysterious reason? To fight.

    This is mostly how it occurred based on testimony from GZ and Treyvons girlfriend,

    Zimmerman said Treyvon circled his vehicle and he had to roll up a window to avoid a confrontation. Treyvon was not on phone at this time.

    Police told Zimmerman hed did not need to follow about 30 seconds after his door slammed (he left truck) putting him around area of T section. George claims never to have goone south on the pathway like the video shows. Treyvon seeing George again could be when GZ was prey. He did leave his home again according to testimony of his brother, GF, and mom.

    So he got far enough away from his home his parents did not hear gunshot. Treyvons Dad filed a missing person report the following morning.

    How did he get back to the T intersection of the path 100 yards (300+ feet) away from his hiome again?

    GZ claimed he went to next street and was returning to his truck when Treyvon attacked him.

    Is that enough for reasonable doubt, or are you lot hell bent on vigilante mob mentality justice still.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
  8. Capracus Valued Senior Member

    That Zimmerman suffered a broken nose or abrasions to head indicates only that he was involved in a fight; it doesn't establish what prompted the fight or when the gun was drawn. There are witness accounts of one party on top of the other during the scuffle, and it’s likely that Martin was on top wresting for control of the gun when he was shot. If Zimmerman was screaming for help as he claimed, it’s much more likely in response to loosing control of his gun than from having his head slammed. Zimmerman’s account of the fight is the weakest part of his whole story.

    There’s no doubt that Zimmerman shot Martin, the question was whether or not he instigated the fight that led to the shooting that determines his guilt. That this particular jury did not doubt Zimmerman’s claim doesn't make it objectively reasonable.

    I have a neighbor who claimed self defense after shooting an acquaintance in the head after said acquaintance allegedly attacked him with a knife. The prosecution had no actual proof that his account was not truthful. Yet a jury after considering the circumstantial evidence, rightly or wrongly found him guilty of voluntary manslaughter and he spent a decade in prison for it. So in reality reasonable doubt is conditional on how the evidence is presented and the reasoning ability of the jury, not merely on the raw evidence itself.
  9. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

    You're dancing around the main point of who started the fight. But yes, it can't be proven who started it, it is merely implied by the facts we know that it was Martin who started it.
    I don't see why that would be true. People scream for help when they fear they are in serious danger, which for Zimmerman would have started when Martin started beating him, whether or not he had his gun out.
    Insofar as it is difficult to corroborate, yes, it is pretty weak. But again, you must remember that it is the prosecution, not Zimmerman, wearing the burden of proof shoe.
    Same answer as above: you have the burden of proof backwards. In addition, you are being misleading about the "doubt". The fact that the jury acquitted Zimmerman does not mean they didn't doubt his account was a lie, it just means they weren't sure his account was a lie. Again, that's the standard of proof required here: the prosecution needed to prove Zimmerman was lying and it couldn't.
    I have no idea as to the facts of that case, but it sounds to me like the guy who went to jail hadn't been stabbed, right? So there was no evidence of him being attacked, right? Much different from this case where we know Zimmerman had injuries and from forensic evidence was beneath Martin. That doesn't prove Martin attacked him, but it does imply it.
    Indeed that is always true. But in this case, there is no way to completely avoid the possibility that Martin started the fight.
  10. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    @ Russ

    I appreciate your reply and it all seems to make ‘’logical’’ sense, I suppose.

    I have a question that will help me understand how the jury came to its verdict. Granted, there are other deciding factors that went into its decision, but this issue has been unclear to me throughout the trial:

    If GZ had ‘started the fight,’ (he admitted it, let’s say) but the same scenario played out – would the SYG law still have been a feasible defense for GZ? In other words, does the SYG law stand no matter who ‘starts’ a fight?

    I ask, because perhaps during its deliberation, maybe someone on the jury questioned this. Maybe someone like many of us here, wondered if GZ started the fight, since he pursued Martin so persistently. But, at the end of the day, if the SYG law trumps everything else, then maybe that’s how the jury reached its verdict.

    Your thoughts (and anyone else's) are appreciated.
  11. kwhilborn Banned Banned

    @ Wegs,

    No. If Zimmerman had admitted to starting the fight then he would be guilty of the crime of assault. If someone dies during a crime the criminal is guilty of murder. If a burglar entered a home and the owner fell down the stairs trying to escape it would be murder.

    GZ strikes me as an overweight wannabe cop who is a neighborhood blight. He would call the police for tons of things including potholes and an unattended 9 year old boy wandering around. Every neighborhood has 9 year olds wandering around; it is not a police issue.

    We also know Treyvon was a serious enough fighter to be sought after by people for training (phone records). He was also Very tall (6'2") and muscular.

    People with guns often know it is not sane to enter a fist fight while armed as many deaths have resulted from this exact scenario. Two people are fighting. The gun is seen or thought of and then a life or death struggle ensues for the weapon or another weapon is discharged. This is a common scenario in gun violence.

    Treyvon said he was by his home and two witnesses said he was there. How did he end up a hundred yards North of his house where he died? If GZ was chasing him he likely would have gone towards his house. Instead it looks like he went looking for GZ (who could have been just a neighbor walking around), or even chased him to the point of the fight.

    From GZ description he was ambushed walking on the Northern Pathway where the body was found and at a T intersection of a pathway GZ had not gone down (towards Treyvons house).

    Another thing is some had suggested it was Treyvon getting beaten while on the ground. This does not match the (Quite) Broken Nose of Zimmerman and the cuts at the back of his head. I also think it unlikely that a teenager with a reputation as a street fighter would yell help 14 times in 30 seconds. He was not as wimpy as GZ.

    Someone earlier said if Treyvon had punched GZ's nose how come he had no blood on his hands. I question this. First because you do not get blood on your hands from punching someones nose, usually blood comes after. Another reason is because I imagine treyvons hands probably were covered in blood. He was alive and talking for a few moments after he was shot in the chest. If someone shot me I would think my first reaction would be to put my hands over the wound to try to stop the bleeding, but who knows.

    Nobody knows for sure what occurred, but GZ did not know where Treyvon was for several minutes while Treyvon was on the path to his house. There is no way GZ would have caught him at a walking pace, especially since his location was unknown. Treyvon had opportunity to go home, but I have said it is a free country so he could go where he wanted, unfortunately Treyvon did not seem to want to go home. This matches witness descriptions that he made it home.

    On the 911 tape you can hear Zimmerman leave the truck and start walking across the Northern Pathway. The 911 person said "are you folllowing him?. Zimmerman said "yes.". They responded, "Okay, We Don't need you to do that.". By this point about 13 seconds had passed and that put him at the T-intersection where the body was found. Treyvon was still out of sight. Treyvon was out of sight yet that is where the body was found. How did Treyvon suddenly appear that far North where the fight took place? This matches witness descriptions that he made it home.

    GZ said he continued to the next street over looking for a street sign for police, and when he was returning back to his truck he passed the same t-intersection and was attacked by Treyvon.

    All Jury requires is reasonable doubt GZ started it.
    Last edited: Sep 16, 2013
  12. Balerion Banned Banned

    The facts we know are that Zimmerman followed Martin around the neighborhood. I have no idea how that implies Martin as the instigator. If anything, it suggests Zimmerman was.

    Not even remotely. Martin being on top only implies that he was the better fighter.

    Unfortunately true. As it's unfortunate that if Martin did start the fight he's giving up his right to life, even though he clearly would only be protecting himself against a perceived threat.
  13. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    So, going with're saying that Martin was seen as the 'criminal?' (since it's been assumed that he started the fight) Therefore, GZ was 'justified' in shooting him, and not just because of self defense. Wow, this is eye opening to me.

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  14. kwhilborn Banned Banned

    @ Balerion,

    a) I could follow you around your neighborhood wearing a Tutu chanting Jingle Bells and it would not be instigating a crime. Crazy people have rights as well.

    b) Look at the scenario video I posted a few posts ago in post 864,

    Not once in the entire scenario did GZ ever follow Treyvon on foot. ALL - ALL - ALL the observation was done from a car parked 90% of the time. The only time you could say he followed (once he left truck and went on N pathway) Treyvon, was after Treyvon had vanished from sight. No witnesses (GZ and Treyvon GF) said GZ was following him on foot. Treyvon was not seen until the fight. HOWEVER IF HE WAS WALKING DOWN SAME PATH OR PARKING OR EVEN SPYING ON TREYVON, HOW DID TREYVON KNOW? GZ could have been a guy out for a stroll. I said I could wear a Tutu and follow you around pretty legally, but GZ did not even have a Tutu. Instigating a fight and fighting are two separate things. Fighting is a crime, and instigating might be a Tort (Big Difference). You are not allowed to go around hitting crazy people.

    c) Percieved Threat? How, Why? What makes Treyvon so sure GZ was even looking for him? Treyvon could have called Police, Treyvon could have gone to a block parent or some random home with lights on, or could simply yell. A half dozen people responded when yelling started and a few 911 calls were placed prior to the gunshot. This was not some secluded ghost town.

    @ Wegs,

    I added a lot to my previous post even after your last response.
  15. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    lol, I just noticed that. I have questions, but I'll post them later. Stay tuned.

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  16. Bells Staff Member

    How did he know?

    It's hard to miss the fat dude following your every move, first in a car and then on foot. The only way Martin could not have known he was being followed is if he was blind.

    And it was after he started following him on foot up the path that he lost Martin, not before. He then walks past where he lost Martin and as he recounts in his re-enactment video, he is told to stop chasing him, but he kept going, looking around for him and then continuing up the path, by his own admittance, still looking for him, and he gets to the top of the path where it meets a road, and he gives instructions to the 911 operator, then he said he walked back down the path, and when he gets to the part where he had initially lost Martin, is when Martin then confronts him and asks him what his problem is. That is when the fight started.

    The only way Martin could not have known he was being followed was if he was blind.
  17. wegs Matter & Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Truth is, GZ didn't know if Martin was armed or not (initially)...and neither did Martin know if GZ was armed or not (initially). So, we are speaking about this objectively, but given their views at the time, it's hard to say what either thought. In today's world, I'd assume someone is armed, more often than not. Regardless, your point speaks to the fact of a rational person's thoughts, in thinking about entering a 'fist fight' with a gun. Do you think GZ is rational? I really don't. I've followed the case, and he just seems to be reckless, if not irrational.

    So, why did GZ keep after Martin?

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    That's where the breakdown for most people comes in, kwhilborn. No one is advocating throwing a punch ''just because'' someone is following you, but we don't know if GZ instigated things. He and his wife lied about their finances when he was on trial, who's to say he didn't lie about what went down that night? You're right, a jury found GZ 'not guilty,' of the charges against him at the time, but just seems like GZ's 'version' of that night is sketchy.

    Just some 'news' about GZ...

    And this was chilling to read, even though it's mere speculation:
  18. Balerion Banned Banned

    By the state's own laws, I also would have a right to protect myself if I thought you posed a credible threat to my personal safety. Considering it was dark out, and the fact that George Zimmerman was packing heat, I'd considering Trayvon to be in the right for standing up for himself.

    b) Look at the scenario video I posted a few posts ago in post 864,

    You say that, but then you contradict yourself by saying he does follow him on foot:

    That's called a durp, durpy. If he's not following him, then why is he out walking around looking for him? And what makes you think it matters whether he was on foot or in his car? You can follow someone in a car, too.

    You mean to tell me you don't know when someone's following you? Zimmerman was following him in his car, and then got out of the car to find him when he lost sight of him. He very obviously wasn't just some guy on a stroll.

    Straw man. No one is contending that Zimmerman following Martin was illegal. What I'm saying is that Zimmerman's obvious pursuit of Martin could have been enough to make him think he was in danger. After all, it was dark out, and Martin wasn't doing anything wrong.

    You are if you are reasonably concerned for your safety, which Martin absolutely had every right to be. The guy following him had a gun, as well.

    Why didn't Zimmerman yell for help? Why didn't he listen to the police when the 911 dispatcher told him to stop following him? Obviously, both parties were confident in their abilities to handle the threat themselves. It's just unfortunate for Trayvon Martin that the scumbag who he thumped also happened to be a gun-waving lunatic, a sad fact that was nearly realized again when Zimmerman pulled a gun on his wife recently.
  19. kwhilborn Banned Banned

    @ Balerion,

    If I wait for you do walk down a path until you are out of sight then I suppose you could technically say I was following you. According to george he was crossing to the opposite street to see a street sign at this point.

    You say he followed him in his car. Never did he do that either. GZ did turn right instead of left at the intersection but to have truly followed him by car to the mail area GZ would need to have driven on the grass between townhomes. Watch the scenario I posted recently. George spotted Treyvon again and drove a 100 yards down the road and watched him from a parked car while he called it in to police using a non emergency number.

    How Treyvon even knew he was being watched is a mystery. At no time was he followed in a car, or followed within eyesight on foot. If you think otherwise, you have been fooled by the media. It was never "obvious Pursuit", and Treyvon had reached home. He was only a minute away from his home at slow walking speed when he was first lost to GZ eyesight. Also ... GZ was NOT wearing a Tutu or acting crazy; he was walking.

    Actually another media hoax is that he kept following (same path) Treyvon after being told to stop. From the time he left his truck to the time the dispatch told him "we don't need you to do that" 13 seconds had elapsed more than enough time to have walked to the crime scene. The call ended at the crime scene. GZ says he continued to the next street to see a sign and NOT south down the path between the houses. Treyvon told his GF he had arrived home and 2 witnesses saw him on the patio. It seems he saw GZ walking on the path to the north and decided to mug him.

    Zimmerman did call for help once he was attacked. He yelled help 13 times in less than 30 seconds because Treyvon was bashing his head into concrete according to witnesses.

    @ Bells,

    Nobody knows how to screw up the witnessed scenario better than you have been doing repeatedly throughout this thread.

    He never followed Treyvon in a car. He parked his car a good distance away and watched while he phoned police. He never followed Treyvon within eyesight on foot either. Treyvon was gone from sight long enough to have reached home by the time GZ went looking for a street sign and address. The phone call made it apparent he did not know street name for police.

    Bull. We can hear him leave his vehicle and slam door well after Treyvon had vanished from sight. No wonder you are such a pain in this thread. You can't remember facts from one post to the next.

    First when asked if he was following they said "We don't need you to do that". That is hardly the same as saying stop. This was 13 seconds after leaving truck (on police tape) and he was near the T intersection of the two pathways where the fight broke out. He then went looking for an address to give to police, and crossing to the next street was in no way following Trayvon as Trayvon had gone south.

    Yes ; wow you got something right. So if he walked to opposite road then he in no way whatsoever was following Treyvon, as Treyvon had turned south back at the pathway intersection.

    Yes again. As he was walking back to his truck along the Northern Path Treyvon mugged him from the Southern pass at the same intersection he was told "we don't need you to do that", and 13 seconds from his truck.
  20. Balerion Banned Banned

    I don't know what you're trying to say here. What purpose would it serve for George to get in his car at all if not to follow him?

    Yes he did. Zimmerman even admitted he was following him to the dispatcher.

    Then how did he and Zimmerman end up in a tussle? Magic? Did Zimmerman, while he was so desperately trying to avoid Travyon, slip through a portal that dumped him out on the lawn at Martin's feet?

    Even Zimmerman doesn't deny following him. That's just something you've invented on your own.

    Again you contradict yourself. First he reached home, then he was a minute away from home. A minute away from home is not home, no more than your next door neighbor's yard is your yard.

    And nowhere does it say someone must be acting crazy in order to be potentially threatening. Again, this is a straw man you've invented to make yourself feel better.

    Ah, so you've adopted the crackpot theory that Trayvon Martin was a mugger. Well, the bad news is that crazy broaches no argument, so any further discussion between us (or between you and anyone else) is fruitless. The good news is that I don't have to be concerned that a normal, well-adjusted member of society actually believes Trayvon Martinw as in the wrong, or that Zimmerman--who just recently pulled a gun on his own wife--is some sort of hero. Nope, that opinion is safely sequestered in Crazytown.

    Once he was attacked, yes. But you ask why Trayvon didn't call for help when he thought he was in danger, so why not ask why Zimmerman didn't start calling for the neighbors before he started pursuing Travyon. Well, the reason I now know is that you've concocted this ridiculous alternate scenario where Trayvon committed a felony assault while on the phone with a girl. A mugging he was apparently so eager to commit that he didn't even bother hanging up. Because, you know, that's how muggers do.
  21. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

    This is bull. If someone is on the footpath I can follow them without driving on the footpath. Likewise, if they cut through a park or between houses, I can still follow them in my vehicle if I want to without having to drive on the grass. The only thing required is enough neurons to form a synapse. It's not that hard.
  22. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    It Should Never Come to Earth on Hell

    It's a Great Photo, But ....

    A very simple question for KWHilborn:

    Anyway, are you one of those Canadians for whom English is a second language? Or, maybe, third?

    The only reason I ask is that it makes a difference in how one should respond to the sort of abysmal post that relies entirely on praising its author for being illiterate gutter muck in order to have any whiff of credibility.

    What I do appreciate about the post ... well, okay, two things:

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    (1) That's a great picture. From which third-rate internet backwater did you find it? Oh, right. I'll just look at the link. Ah, yes, one of those pop culture sites that does the thinking for you so that you don't have to decide what's cool. How predictable. Then again, it really is a fun shot.

    (2) Thank you for reminding everyone why they really shouldn't bother with your posts. I mean, sure, the stinking, ranting old man on the street corner is one we teach our children to avoid, but that's just one of those precautionary measures. Most of those drooling, would-be prophets are generally harmless, and what makes them dangerous is a person determined to go out of his way to start something. Given how ill-conceived such plans usually are, it's a really, really stupid way to go about things. And you have provided for our neighbors and future generations of Sciforums members a sterling example of what it looks like when an angry, ranting, would-be prophet gets up on his soapbox without a clue where reality lies.​

    There is nothing anyone can say that can injure your argument as badly as, well, your own conduct and argument.

    Right now, you're just demonstrating, acutely, the vicious racism required to support George Zimmerman.

    We should take up a collection here, and help you relocate to some place where your kind of thinking would be more welcome. Indeed, let's send you to North Dakota, where an international fugitive is trying to transform an entire town into a unique homeland for American justice. I'm sure he could use your help, especially since it's the Canadian government that wants him, and they want him because he's an accused "racist".

    And, frankly, your ideology would fit in perfectly with the Leith nationalist movement.

    Added bonus, living in the United States, it wouldn't be so offensive to hear you criticize what you have no clue about. See, that's another thing you don't seem to get about Americans—we're just like everyone else, and we can criticize our own in ways that others can't. And if you don't like it, remember that you're up against generations of Americans for whom it has long been okay to refer to your mother or sister as a bitch, cunt, slut, or whatever, but God help anyone else who talks about one's mother or sister that way. In other words, we're human beings. So yes, it makes a big difference, when your ignorance is also advertising your home, if that home is American or foreign. Because not only do Americans get to say things about Mother Liberty that our foreign neighbors do not, we also get to make certain critiques according to empirical data that one absolutely cannot obtain living in Toronto and having absolutely no clue about American history.

    Oh, wait. That's right. You don't want to go to Leith, since your wife and kids wouldn't be welcome. But, hey, you know, it's all a matter of what's important to you. I mean, sure, many in history who we might otherwise find admirable have left their wives and children behind in order to pursue a holy justice they had no comprehension of, but in the twenty-first century—you know, the one we live in?—that sort of outcome is looked upon in lesser light than in the past.

    Do what you will, but if you expect a return in respect, it helps to offer up an investment that isn't ignorant to the point of dysfunction.

    (Oh, right. You're welcome to show everyone how wrong this post is by actually supporting your delusional rant with some sort of factual assertion, but here's the fun thing about the United States that perhaps you don't appreciate: Actually requiring you to support your argument could be construed as discriminatory, and therefore illegal, under the ADA. So, yeah. It's up to you whether you wish to save your reputation as being remotely trustworthy; there is nothing I can do to undo the damage you've inflicted upon yourself.)
  23. kwhilborn Banned Banned

    @ Wegs,
    The busybody had phoned police over 50 times for stupid things and also against white people. The neighborhood was only half white. I of course think that makes GZ too high strung to be armed. I still think he did not start the fight.

    @ Balerion,
    Wow, Where have you been. Do you know anything that occurred? GZ was already in his car when he first saw Treyvon on a neighbors lawn. GZ watched Treyvon cut between houses so he turned right and drove to an observation point.

    No that statement was made after he left his truck and went down path Treyvon took. I did say he followed (technically) on foot after Treyvon was gone from sight.

    You and Trippy and the media make it sound like the car was tripping over his heels, but the car was parked for some time before Treyvon suspected GZ was watching him according to testimony of Treyvons GF. THE CAR NEVER MOVED AN INCH FROM THE TIME TREYVON SUSPECTED HE WAS BEING WATCHED. NOT AN INCH.

    According to Treyvons GF who was talking with him most of the time, Treyvon started to suspect he was being watched while at mailbox rain shelter. GZ car was already parked and NEVER MOVED AN INCH. NOT AN INCH. NOT EVEN A HALF INCH FROM THAT POINT IN THE TIMELINE. You can think he was following Treyvon in his car all you like, but that does not change the fact that the car DID NOT MOVE AN INCH after Treyvon thought he might be being watched. Am I being clear or should I underline the fact the car did not move an inch a few more times.

    I prefer the other video, but this video shows door slam and that he did listen to police regarding following. It also shows treyvon had ample time to get home as was witnessed by his Mother, Brother, and GF.


    As you can see from Door Slam of Car and Timeline GZ did stop following when told to placing him at the scene of the crime.

    I know this may sound odd and may not be true, but I have seen people of all nationalities talking on hands free telephones where I thought they were talking to me or themselves and thought they were crazy. I am getting used to it now, but Treyvon was using a hands Free device. I believe that labelled him a nutcase more than a hoodie. If Treyvon was actually holding a telephone to his ear he might look like a teen yapping on the phone instead of like someone crazy or on drugs. Come on and admit you have seen people on these phones before and thought the same thing.

    After the video. GZ claims he continued to the opposite street and then returned towards his car when Treyvon attacked from the south. Treyvon had minimum 88 seconds lost from sight with his home 300 feet away. He could have gone home and eaten a burger in that time. There was no reason he should return to the T intersection a few minutes later.

    He was not at T intersection when GZ was on the phone with police, yet he died at that intersection.

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