George Zimmerman found Not Guilty.

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Saturnine Pariah, Jul 14, 2013.

  1. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Yes, in principle that is what communism is intended to be. If China has strayed from that then China is no more a true communist nation than the US is a truely democratic one.

    I know exactly how he intended it, that was kinda part of the point I was making.

    But I wasn't comparing it to communist china was I? I was comparing it to the ideal.

    I know. I'm not as green as I am cabbage looking.
     
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  3. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    You too huh?
     
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  5. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Clearly you're not one of them as that would require accepting an absence of proof as proof of absence. Something you have stated categorically is never the case, going as far as citing famous scientists to back your assertion.

    He wasn't found innocent, he was found not guilty. A jury of his peers found that the prosecuting authority did not provide sufficient evidence to substantiate their hypothesis. That's not the same thing as finding someone innocent.

    As opposed to the innocent man he shot? Remember, there is no proof that Martin intended to commit a crime and he was not tried or found guilty and must therefore be presumed innocent.
     
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  7. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Valued Senior Member

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    I Still Don't Blame Canada; Nor Will I Pity It

    Is that how they do it in Canada?

    No, really, are juristic applications of a word in perfect harmony with the full range of their use within the broader language?

    See, because in the United States—you know, the country where all this shit is going on—that's not how it works.

    Because we have an extraordinary standard of guilt, failure to prove guilt does not equal proof of innocence.

    Seriously, in this country, you can have your DNA on the victim, and even confess to the act, still not be guilty. Doesn't mean you're innocent.

    Or, I think most people would agree that O.J. Simpson is not "innocent".

    Seriously, a guy was acquitted in Florida some years back; his successful defense was that it wasn't rape because her skimpy skirt was an invitation. So a jury said he's not guilty. Argue that he's innocent. No, really, his defense was that, well, sure, he did it, but she was askin' to be raped. And it worked. So tell me he's innocent.

    I think back to the law-and-order arguments about drugs, music, and all that other stuff in the days before we became obsessed with Muslims; Americans used to get all sorts of angry that the cops couldn't beat confessions out of suspects. Countless accused, from drunk driving to child molesting and beyond, walked out "not guilty" because police or prosecutors screwed up and broke the law. See, at no point in my lifetime have Americans had any real difficulty distinguishing between "not guilty" and "innocent".

    And, you know, I've joked before that I don't blame Canada for your behavior. A big part of the reason is that I'm as certain as I can be that most Canadians don't have any general difficulty telling the difference, either.
     
  8. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    Whilst I can't be 100% certain it is true for Canada, we that are still within the Empire have a process.

    Wrongful imprisonment happens from time to time, and compensation seems only appropriate. Usually that involves the likes of the privy council or the supreme court (the privy council is based in london) ordering a retrial. If the retrial finds the accused not guilty, then the accused may be elligible for compensation. In order to qualify for compensation for wrongful imprisonment, the accused must prove that they were actually innocent. I forget what the standard of proof required for that is, but I have a feeling it's "beyond reasonable doubt" because not guilty is only a finding on the balance of probabilities.
     
  9. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    @ Tiassa,
    I agree Canada is a much better place.

    @ Trippy,

    No. You OBVIOUSLY did not take it in context. You seemed to take it from Wegs version. I had clearly implied that people who dislike our justice systems should head to countries where civil liberties are denied, and I then used communist countries as an example.

    Do not even pretend you were on the same wavelength, as your comments seem to infer that I dislike communist people as opposed to their justice systems.

    I am sure you will rephrase things to make it seem like you were smart enough to clue in from the start, but we already know you would just be covering stupidity.

    @ Moderators,
    You two moderators know damn well that Presumption of Innocence is not only a fair way to approach all trials, but also there is a huge information gap regarding the case we are discussing. This means a fair verdict was reached. Why argue? You think it makes you seem intelligent?

    I know Tiassa feels neighborhood watch should only watch and report the strange white folks in the community and completely ignore all blacks, basically because they already paid their dues. Not only should neighborhood watch people not notice strange black people in their community, they should never keep tabs on them. I think Tiassa also would make it a crime to ever follow anyone black. It is currently legal for a group of kids to follow a big kid home from school and call him "Fatty" the entire way, but it is not legal (in Tiassas viewpoint and other people here) for neighborhood watch to follow a kid home.

    Maybe a lot of 17 year old boys had been butt raped in that pathway during the previous year and neighborhood watch was watching Treyvon for his own anal protection. Treyvon did not know why he was being protected.

    @ Tiassa,
    You recently admitted to throwing Molotov Cocktails on film in a 1991 race riot at a Jesuit School. You also said you were also brandishing a weapon which you used, and I'm guessing not to open a beer can. You should turn yourself in and face the Justice system yourself. You confessed to the world in Post 715. I'm sure someone crazy enough to do stuff like that would not be allowed free. You are upset GZ is found not guilty and you confess to trying to kill people yourself.
     
  10. Trippy ALEA IACTA EST Staff Member

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    The two aren't mutually exclusive.

    Why cite communism specifically? There are plenty of non-communist authoritarian/totalitarian regimes to go around.

    Because you come from an age where communism was scary, in much the same way people regard terrorism now.
     
  11. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    @ Trippy,
    I told you you would sidestep your comprehension.

    Why not use Communism as an example of poor human rights. No matter what country I use you could say another was suitable. Communism describes many countries that fit the bill.

    Speak for yourself. I may be retired at a younger age than many but I was born in 1967. Nobody feared communism during my lifetime that I recall. It seemed like it had failed pretty badly and the Berlin wall came down when I was barely in my 20's. This was also the time Russia started losing in Olympic Hockey as all Hockey players were allowed. Sorry; No McCarthyism in my day.

    Communist Regimes are known to all as lacking in optimal justice. If I had said Justice like in Mexico or called those liking bad justice "Disgusting Mexicans", the effect would be less.

    I should also point out that there is often quite a difference between communist (as I implied), and those living under communist rule. Communist support a theory or are involved in a system of social organization based on the holding of all property in common. Civil rights are commonly ignored in the more common Regimes of today.

    Now you can comment on that and take us even further away from your original comprehension blunder, and maybe people won't even notice your mistakes.
     
  12. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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  13. Asguard Kiss my dark side Valued Senior Member

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    WOW, your seriously that ignorant of law

    instead of googling a dictionary definition of "innocent" look at a lawyers thesis on what "Not Guilty" means (this is a defence Lawyer so it maybe biased in favour of the defence

    Now to prove the point, ever herd of OJ Simson?

    IF the verdict in the criminal trial was "Innocent" then the civil trial would have been impossible because he was innocent and had been found that way by the courts but in the West because of the system which puts the burden of proof onto the Prosecution and puts that burden as "behold reasonable doubt" a "Not Guilty" is a FAR cry from a finding of innocent and therefore when he was tried under the lower standard of "on the balance of probabilities" (which is all that's necessary for a civil case) he was found Guilty.

    My dad was a Juror on a spousal rape trial and he came home with a bad taste in his mouth over that trial because he knew the guy did it absolutely but because the wife kept lying and couldn't be held as a credible witness they had not choice but to find "Not Guilty"
     
  14. kwhilborn Banned Banned

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    @ Asguard,
    I can honestly say I have never heard of OJ simson.

    It sounds like your dad has a lot more sense than you. You are doing opposite. You are accusing GZ of starting a fight despite the fact there are no witnesses to that effect. Yes; Your dad should be ashamed, and likely is.

    @ Electric Fetus,

    The latest Wrongful police Shooting in Toronto was against a White Guy. I suppose had he been black it would be a good one for your records, but since the victim was white let's just ignore it shall we. He was committing crime of "Being White While Breathing".
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lG6OTyjzAgg

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    The moral of the story is always the same. Don't mess with people with guns.

    The case you linked as crime of being "black while breathing" was stupid. The Police were told by a neighbor that this was a car robbery in progress. It was night and he was going in and out of his car using a flashlight. These two things are both weird. First it is weird a neighbor does not recognize his own neighbor, and secondly it is weird anybody uses a flashlight around their car at night. Most people use outdoor lighting and interior car lights. They also say victim lunged at them.

    These were police responding to a reported crime in progress at night.

    So your claim is that had the victim been white he would never have been shot.

    Were the the police white? Does it matter? Jeremiah Meeks and Officer White (guess he's white for sure).

    Yes; Every time a black person is followed or pulled over it is ONLY because of racial profiling. That is a crock, and I feel bad that putzes like you believe it.

    Police make mistakes against all colours of skin.
     
  15. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    One of the most highly publicized criminal trials in recent history and you never heard of it? Just another indication of your apparent ignorance of American culture and social dynamics in general.

    There were no credible witnesses to verify that he didn't start the fight, including Zimmerman himself. If the defendant’s account is taken as fact, the prisons would be empty, as the vast majority of accused portray themselves as innocent. Ideally a trial is a process that validates the most reasonable scenario supported by the evidence in total, not the one most palatable to a given jury, or best marketed by legal teams. This case was poorly presented by the prosecution and poorly considered by the jury, nowhere near a shining example of justice.
     
  16. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Oh sure police make mistakes, are trigger happy in general, but blacks are far more likely to be searched, arrest or shot then whites, cherry pick all the examples you want you can't beat statistics.

    Oh and here a new one:

    "White people who kill black people in 'Stand Your Ground' states are 354 per cent more likely to be found justified in their killing than a white person who kills another white person, according to research."
     
  17. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Your distrust of the defendant is fine, but again, there was no evidence that Zimmerman started the fight, so there was no way for a guilty verdict to be reasonable.

    And in this case, the evidence - thin as it was - was actually in favor of the defendant. It would therefore have taken a seriously negligent jury and/or corrupt prosecutor for this case have gone the other way.
     
  18. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Same as above: As I'm sure you well know, there is no evidence for that and the evidence there is supports the idea that Martin picked the fight. It is fine if you want to believe that that's what happened without evidence, but the reality of a trial is that that's not good enough for a conviction.
     
  19. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Martin's civil liberties ended with Zimmerman's broken nose.
     
  20. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    I don't know for certain who started the fight, but I don't need to. I think it is likely Martin started the fight, but I don't even need that. You might think it is likely that Zimmerman started the fight, but as I'm sure you well know, that's not good enough either.

    But if you think it is certain Zimmerman started the fight, then you are hopelessly blinded by your emotion and bias.
    There is no evidence such a thing happened. That's just a fantasy of yours.
    I don't know for certain; correct. Nor do you. Therefore you must accept a not guilty verdict.
    Agreed, Zimmerman's account is not perfectly consistent. But that's not enough for a guilty verdict. You have to have positive evidence of guilt, not just not completely ironclad evidence of him being innocent.
    You're holding your mirror backwards.
    I don't like the law either. But it isn't relevant here. What made for the finding of not guilty was normal self defense, not the SYG part of the Florida law.
     
  21. ElectricFetus Sanity going, going, gone Valued Senior Member

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    Its a certainty that Zimmerman 'started' the fight: he choose to leave his car and pursue. That is a fact, not emotional bias.
     
  22. Capracus Valued Senior Member

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    There was evidence that a fight was started. The problem faced by the jury was to determine a reasonable explanation based on the available evidence as to which party was the instigator. The accounts of Zimmerman and Rachel Jeantel both indicate a period of verbal exchange prior to the physical altercation. During this same period it wouldn't be unreasonable for both parties to take defensive postures, and in Zimmerman’s case that would include preparing to, or actually drawing his weapon. Faced with such action by an unknown opponent, it would be reasonable for Martin to attempt to impede such action to avoid being shot.

    The evidence was in favor of Zimmerman in that it didn't support a case for murder, but it did if presented and considered reasonably, support a case for manslaughter.
     
  23. Russ_Watters Not a Trump supporter... Valued Senior Member

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    Getting out of your car and following someone is not a fight. That's ridiculousness. I find myself needing to define simple words for people here again:
    "a violent confrontation or struggle."
    https://www.google.com/search?q=fig...me..69i57j0l3.3593j0&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
     

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