George Floyd trial,could you make a case for the defendant not being guilty of the charges?

[wegs]

If you cannot show an instance of racism happening, what you describe is a boogeyman. It's a conspiracy theory, where many things secretly work together for nefarious purposes, but there's no actual evidence.


For greater crimes with longer sentences, sentencing is often decided by a jury. Addressing "the system" will not change the fact that people are inherently biased.
There's also evidence that lenience on lesser crimes leads to higher sentences for greater crimes.


Believe all women? That sort of suspension of skepticism usually leads to people being denied due process and them being presumed guilty. Bias means that you are more likely to find anything you seek out, just because you're intent on seeking it out and dismiss contradictory info.


The boogeyman of discrimination is a running excuse to not take responsibility for one's own actions.

Conspiracy theories and boogeymen? I respectfully disagree if you're making blanket statements, but I'll come back in a bit to reply to your points.

I didn't mean that you (specifically) don't make sense, by the way.

ha Okay.

I was pointing out that IMO when systemic racism is defined the way that it is commonly defined...it really doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

I understand that there can be racism in society even though every person isn't racist but I've heard it defined so that no one can be racist and there's still systemic racism. Since it's been eliminated by law and if it's eliminated in actual people then there's nothing left for systemic racism to hang it's hat on.

It actually means that while every person might not be individually racist in the US, we are all a part of a system that has racist roots. Those roots don't just disappear because laws change, and society ''progresses.'' So, while Chauvin may not be racist, it can be assumed (by outsiders) that because he acted so coldly towards Floyd, (maybe) he did so in part because he knew that the ''system'' would have his back. That's systemic racism.

If Cauvin feels entitled as a cop, that's what needs to be fixed with the police in our country.

Agreed, how do you fix it though? Feelings of entitlement is also part of our police system, embedded...deep.

I see no need to call it systemic racism because the statistics show that cops act that way to everyone ou might be who acts like that to them.

Every white cop who arrests a black suspect isn't racist, and that isn't indicative of systemic racism. But, if that same white cop tends to profile blacks, over police black neighborhoods, and uses excessive force more so on black suspects (all things being equal with white suspects) - it could be that the cop him/herself is racist, or is part of a system that allows it.

On that point -- when we talk about systemic racism, it's not something only happening in the police departments. They are just one sector of the population - joined by other sectors - that make up the entire system. For example, racism may be felt by students at school. Then, those students get a job someday, and it's felt there. Then, they are profiled when driving home from work, at a routine traffic stop. All the moving parts - all the sectors - working together. The police department doesn't have its own unique system of racism - it's part of the whole.

I've read different threads where this has been brought up by you - are you feeling like you're being blamed (collective societal blame) for systemic racism (as a white guy) when you don't consider yourself to be racist?

If the police aren't abusing the black middle class then it's not really systemic racism is it?

They may experience systemic racism in other sectors of the population, because it's all part of the whole. To be clear, I'm not suggesting every black person is dealing with racism on a daily basis, but as a white woman, I can't honestly speak to it. (For what it's worth, I'm not trying to come across as an enlightened being and you're not - just sharing what I've come to understand on my own. Your mileage may vary.)

 

[wegs]

Agreed 100%. All you have to do is stand by while someone else is racist, thinking "well, nothing I can do so I'm just going to stay out of it." If enough people do that, then the few true racists we do have enable a racist society, where their actions are unopposed.

The concept of the "active bystander" is relevant here, and is the opposite side of the coin. If racism isn't tolerated by bystanders, then it cannot become part of society. In this case, the active bystanders could not save Floyd's life - but they were able to capture the video that led to his indictment. They do have power.

I think as we continue to become a more ''transparent'' society in general, hopefully, we will see less of these incidents.

 

[Seattle]

I've read different threads where this has been brought up by you - are you feeling like you're being blamed (collective societal blame) for systemic racism (as a white guy) when you don't consider yourself to be racist?

No, I'm not internalizing it. I don't see myself (for one thing) as a "white' guy. I'm a guy. Yes, I'm in the majority in that regard (skin color) but I see no use in talking about people by skin color.

If anything, what is being referred to these days is about economic class.

I think it's not productive for an individual to become overly sensitive. It wouldn't be good for me to do that and it's not good if one is black to do that.

If you are actually a victim of racism you will know it and you won't have to talk about systemic racism. Otherwise, life isn't "fair" and we are all in this game and have to learn to deal with it.

A cop sat on Floyd. He may be convicted and may go to prison for that. We don't need to wonder if he is a racist.

If a cop sits on me and I die, my family doesn't need to worry if that cop was racist. Where does it stop? No one will ever want to take responsibility for their own life/circumstances.

If I don't get a particular job, so what, there were a lot of applicants and we can't all get that one job. If I'm black and I think "Of course I didn't get that job I'm black" is that helpful? How about "They treated me fairly, I don't think the interviewer was racist but the system is racist and that's why I didn't get the job" is that helpful?

How about the process was fair but more white people go to college than black people so that's why I'm not happy with the job I have (or don't have).

At a certain point you have to conclude IMO that life isn't fair and try to do what you can with what you have. That's what everyone does and has to do anyway.

It's like watching "Live It To Beaver" on old reruns and feeling like my family wasn't like that and my life would have been better if I was brought up like that. No one's life is really like that and no one really gets anywhere in life blaming external circumstances.

I saw a clip from Bill Maher's show. He is a liberal but he said the one flaw in the DNA of liberals is a lack of common sense.

You can be well meaning, compassionate, want to help... but it's still necessary (as a Democrat) to display some common sense. At what point do we move on from "systemic racism"? Not from actual racism but just from looking under every rock to make sure that there is zero racism?

We don't do that with unemployment, poverty, crime, etc. All those things we concern ourselves with when it's really a problem and then live with it when it gets below a certain point.

I was surprised but in Washington State (or maybe it's just King County) they actually stopped a government program. For as long as I have lived here we have to go and have our cars inspected for vehicle emissions once a year and pay a fee. No one that I could see ever failed. My car was 26 years old by the end and never failed. I never even had to replace the muffler on that car.

This year, they closed all of the vehicle emission stations. They didn't continue just to keep government jobs or the fees or due to politics...they just ended the program. Apparently it started because pollution levels in the area were too high and now they have come down to the point where it was no longer justified.

Kind of like systemic racism IMO.

 

[billvon]

A cop sat on Floyd. He may be convicted and may go to prison for that. We don't need to wonder if he is a racist.

If you want to solve the problem overall - yes, you do.

If what he did was a result of his own racism, then that leads to one set of solutions. If what he did was a result of more systemic racism, that's another set. If what he did was an example of simple bad judgment, that's a third set.

Since 1982, drunk driving fatalities in the US have decreased 52%. This is specific to drunk driving; _total_ traffic fatalities have declined 18%. We accomplished this by learning which deaths were related to a drunk driver - and going after those causes. We passed new laws that were tougher on drunk drivers. We passed new laws that put more liability on bars and bartenders. We changed drinking ages and BAC limits. And it worked. Drunk driving deaths are down by more than 50%.

If, instead, we had said "hey, that family is DEAD! Nothing will bring them back. No reason to wonder if the other driver was drunk or not; just prosecute him for speeding and causing the accident. That's all you need to do" we would not have made such progress - because we would have not understood the underlying problem.

We don't do that with unemployment, poverty, crime, etc.

Of course we do. We try to understand the underlying causes of those things to see how to ameliorate them (or even if it's possible to begin with.) That's why people study recidivism rates - to see what works to reduce crime.

I was surprised but in Washington State (or maybe it's just King County) they actually stopped a government program. For as long as I have lived here we have to go and have our cars inspected for vehicle emissions once a year and pay a fee. No one that I could see ever failed. My car was 26 years old by the end and never failed.

This year, they closed all of the vehicle emission stations. They didn't continue just to keep government jobs or the fees...they just ended the program. Apparently it started because pollution levels in the area were too high and now they have come down to the point where it was no longer justified.

It will be awesome if we get to that point with racially motivated crime.

 

[Seattle]

If you want to solve the problem overall - yes, you do.

If what he did was a result of his own racism, then that leads to one set of solutions. If what he did was a result of more systemic racism, that's another set. If what he did was an example of simple bad judgment, that's a third set.

Since 1982, drunk driving fatalities in the US have decreased 52%. This is specific to drunk driving; _total_ traffic fatalities have declined 18%. We accomplished this by learning which deaths were related to a drunk driver - and going after those causes. We passed new laws that were tougher on drunk drivers. We passed new laws that put more liability on bars and bartenders. We changed drinking ages and BAC limits. And it worked. Drunk driving deaths are down by more than 50%.

If, instead, we had said "hey, that family is DEAD! Nothing will bring them back. No reason to wonder if the other driver was drunk or not; just prosecute him for speeding and causing the accident. That's all you need to do" we would not have made such progress - because we would have not understood the underlying problem.

Of course we do. We try to understand the underlying causes of those things to see how to ameliorate them (or even if it's possible to begin with.) That's why people study recidivism rates - to see what works to reduce crime.


It will be awesome if we get to that point with racially motivated crime.

Is your problem related to reading comprehension, fixed views, what?

My point was that when crime, unemployment, poverty get to low enough levels we move on to higher order issues not that we don't address crime, unemployment and poverty? Jeez!

With Cauvin, we don't need to wonder if he is a racist, atheist, vegan, etc. Look to his actions and deal with those.

If it's a police issue overall (and I believe that to be the case) then don't waste time trying to imagine racism (statistics don't bear that out) and overhaul the way that police departments operate. The white, black, asian, hispanic citizens will all be much happier.

 

[Vociferous]

Conspiracy theories and boogeymen? I respectfully disagree if you're making blanket statements, but I'll come back in a bit to reply to your points.

Not making blanket statements. I qualified that with "if you cannot show an instance of racism happening".
If you can show evidence, it's not just a phantasm or paranoia, and there are actual targets with identified problems to work on together.

 

[wegs]

Not making blanket statements. I qualified that with "if you cannot show an instance of racism happening".
If you can show evidence, it's not just a phantasm or paranoia, and there are actual targets with identified problems to work on together.

Here is some data to start with - but if you find other reasons for this data that strip away the possibility that racism is the cause (systemic or otherwise), that is why we are having this discussion - because skeptics of systemic racism will find reasons to explain away the data. Not saying systemic racism is at play in every instance where a black person is terminated or not hired for a job for example, that would be reckless, too. I’m assuming that’s what you meant by “boogeyman.” But, these stats show a pattern within the US that points toward a system, set up to favor whites.


https://www.businessinsider.com/us-systemic-racism-in-charts-graphs-data-2020-6

 

[Bells]

They do it just as often to white people as well.

So you are saying that they do this to white people just as often, yes?

Congratulations. You are part way to understanding part of the problem!

Just look at the statistic.

Yes. Why don't we look at the statistic!

Population breakdown as one example:

Do you understand where I am going with this? Do you understand how, when looking at the population breakdown, just how your:

"They do it just as often to white people as well."​

Is terribly problematic?

African Americans make up between 13 and 14% of the population in the US. Yet they are killed just as much as white people who make up just over 60% of the population.

Does the word 'disproportionate' mean anything to you? Do you understand what it means in the context of this discussion?

But let's look at what this means..

Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police. Risk of being killed by police peaks between the ages of 20 y and 35 y for men and women and for all racial and ethnic groups. Black women and men and American Indian and Alaska Native women and men are significantly more likely than white women and men to be killed by police. Latino men are also more likely to be killed by police than are white men.

[...]

What was it that you said? Ah yes:

This is a police problem. It's not a race problem.

Consider, why can't it be both?

For example:

You can try to claim that this is not a race issue, but you would simply be ignoring fact in doing so.

Remember this during the Capitol riots?

All of those people were allowed to leave. That police officer was beaten by these people who were attempting to overthrow the Government. All those people who were beating that officer in that image and caught on video? They weren't arrested at the scene. Police didn't open fire on them or use tasers on them as they beat that officer or to protect that police officer.

If those insurrectionists were black, do you think the response would have been the same?

If a black teenager used a gun to kill 2 people, would police high 5 him like they did to Kyle Rittenhouse and allowed him to keep his gun for that long?

Last April, a human resources manager in San Francisco’s city government quit after spending two years conducting anti-bias training for the city’s police force. In an exit email sent to his boss and the city’s police chief, he wrote that “the degree of anti-black sentiment throughout SFPD is extreme,” adding that “while there are some at SFPD who possess somewhat of a balanced view of racism and anti-blackness, there are an equal number (if not more) — who possess and exude deeply rooted anti-black sentiments.”​

But sure. You keep telling yourself that it's not about race..

 

[billvon]

If it's a police issue overall (and I believe that to be the case) then don't waste time trying to imagine racism and overhaul the way that police departments operate. The white, black, asian, hispanic citizens will all be much happier.

Yep. And you could make exactly the case for ignoring the inebriation component of traffic accidents. If it's a traffic safety issue overall, then don't waste time trying to imagine that it's the fault of alcohol rather than a careless driver. Instead, fix the traffic safety problem, and everyone - especially the distilleries, breweries and bars - will all be much happier.

(statistics don't bear that out)

Black men are 2.5 times more likely than white men to be killed by police: https://live-journalists-resource.p...ent/killed-police-black-men-likely-white-men/
Non-Hispanic black men are 6 times more likely than non-hispanic white men to die in police custody: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5559881/ (data from 17 states)

 

[wegs]

Anyone watching closing arguments?

 

[Seattle]

So you are saying that they do this to white people just as often, yes?

Congratulations. You are part way to understanding part of the problem!


Yes. Why don't we look at the statistic!

Population breakdown as one example:

Do you understand where I am going with this? Do you understand how, when looking at the population breakdown, just how your:

"They do it just as often to white people as well."​

Is terribly problematic?

African Americans make up between 13 and 14% of the population in the US. Yet they are killed just as much as white people who make up just over 60% of the population.

Does the word 'disproportionate' mean anything to you? Do you understand what it means in the context of this discussion?

But let's look at what this means..

Police violence is a leading cause of death for young men in the United States. Over the life course, about 1 in every 1,000 black men can expect to be killed by police. Risk of being killed by police peaks between the ages of 20 y and 35 y for men and women and for all racial and ethnic groups. Black women and men and American Indian and Alaska Native women and men are significantly more likely than white women and men to be killed by police. Latino men are also more likely to be killed by police than are white men.

[...]

What was it that you said? Ah yes:


Consider, why can't it be both?

For example:

You can try to claim that this is not a race issue, but you would simply be ignoring fact in doing so.

Remember this during the Capitol riots?

All of those people were allowed to leave. That police officer was beaten by these people who were attempting to overthrow the Government. All those people who were beating that officer in that image and caught on video? They weren't arrested at the scene. Police didn't open fire on them or use tasers on them as they beat that officer or to protect that police officer.

If those insurrectionists were black, do you think the response would have been the same?

If a black teenager used a gun to kill 2 people, would police high 5 him like they did to Kyle Rittenhouse and allowed him to keep his gun for that long?

Last April, a human resources manager in San Francisco’s city government quit after spending two years conducting anti-bias training for the city’s police force. In an exit email sent to his boss and the city’s police chief, he wrote that “the degree of anti-black sentiment throughout SFPD is extreme,” adding that “while there are some at SFPD who possess somewhat of a balanced view of racism and anti-blackness, there are an equal number (if not more) — who possess and exude deeply rooted anti-black sentiments.”​

But sure. You keep telling yourself that it's not about race..

From Wikipedia, "According to the FBI, African-Americans accounted for 55.9% of all homicide offenders in 2019, with whites 41.1%, and "Other"/Unknown 3.0% in cases were the race was known."

You seem to leave this out for some reason.

 

[Thus Spoke]

So you are saying that they do this to white people just as often, yes?

Motivation is not a crime. Before you assume a motive, such as racism, you have to prove that his actions were responsible for his death, and then you have to provide general intent.

As wegs alluded to previously, he said that he couldn’t breathe and was going to die inside the car even before Chauvin put his knee on him. He has a history of overdosing and opioids and benzodiazepines in particular are known to cause respiratory depression.

 

[wegs]

Motivation is not a crime. Before you assume a motive, such as racism, you have to prove that his actions were responsible for his death, and then you have to provide general intent.

As wegs alluded to previously, he said that he couldn’t breathe and was going to die inside the car even before Chauvin put his knee on him. He has a history of overdosing and opioids and benzodiazepines in particular are known to cause respiratory depression.

We can all hear Floyd stating that he couldn’t breathe in the car but I wouldn’t conclude that Floyd would have died if what followed, hadn’t happened. A jury shouldn’t be speculating to that end.

The defense’s closing argument is getting a little lost in the weeds, but one juror at least, could have reasonable doubt in that Chauvin was following procedures, even when a suspect is in distress. But even if Chauvin and the other officers followed procedures that reasonable officers would have in his shoes, you’re still left wondering why Chauvin didn’t shift Floyd to his side when he was unresponsive, and then unconscious.

 

[wegs]

So, the jury is deliberating and the defense has brought up that the jury should have been sequestered during the duration of the trial. I agree. The defense went on to say that it had to be impossible for this jury to block out all of the rioting and outside influences to sway their opinions. The judge feels that he gave adequate instructions to the jury to avoid the news. He wishes that elected officials would stop giving their opinions that offend our justice system. (Referring to Maxine Waters’ recent public comments) But, motion for mistrial has been denied.

 

[billvon]

Motivation is not a crime.

Of course. But motive is used to prove a crime occurred.

 

[Michael 345]

Anyone watching closing arguments?

Little bits because midnight here

Judge sounded like he was teaching jury the law on their first day of Law School

At least his summing up was available as notes

Prosecution seemed fixated on 9 minutes 29 seconds

Defence had Write4U annoying habit of say RIGHT at the end of his points

Not impressed overall

 

[wegs]

Little bits because midnight here

Judge sounded like he was teaching jury the law on their first day of Law School

At least his summing up was available as notes

Prosecution seemed fixated on 9 minutes 29 seconds

Defence had Write4U annoying habit of say RIGHT at the end of his points

Not impressed overall

Yea. I wasn’t wow’d by either side’s closing arguments, but maybe it’s a bit of trial fatigue.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Not impressed overall

what would be very impressive is seeing different jury's results
all jurys selected on profession
all 1 jury of full time teenage school teachers
1 of pre school teachers
1 of commercial lawyers
1 of wall st investment brokers
1 of christian church ministers
1 of police
fbi/army/navy
would be quite interesting to have the military do their own investigation as if it was a military incident and see what they came out with with their strong ethics discipline and need for basic cause & effect etc(practicality & laws & rules)

etc etc

what is a little sad to realise is the human sacrifice expose this trial is being held up as
when its outcome wont change core policy

if the police are found guilty of denying him life etc and thus culpable(i expect they will be sued for millions and lose)

will policy be changed ?
or will everyone pack up, go home and play the "now they get the cash and we can all carry on exactly the same)

if you want your society to act with morals
you need to rule them with morals

school children are watching and learning what they can get away with

what if
floyd was an under cover police officer
how would that change anything ?

 

[Vociferous]

Here is some data to start with - but if you find other reasons for this data that strip away the possibility that racism is the cause (systemic or otherwise), that is why we are having this discussion - because skeptics of systemic racism will find reasons to explain away the data. Not saying systemic racism is at play in every instance where a black person is terminated or not hired for a job for example, that would be reckless, too. I’m assuming that’s what you meant by “boogeyman.” But, these stats show a pattern within the US that points toward a system, set up to favor whites.


https://www.businessinsider.com/us-systemic-racism-in-charts-graphs-data-2020-6

I'll catch this later.

If I was a juror, listening to the prosecutor repeatedly lie to my face during his closing argument (even refuting the prosecution's own witness testimony and video evidence), I'd instantly return a not guilty verdict. How would anyone think lying to the jury would help their case. He lied about:

• the $20 bill "allegedly" being counterfeit.
• Floyd crying out for his dead mama, when his girlfriend already testified for the prosecution that he called her "mama", and Floyd had her in his phone under "mama".
• that police tapped on his car window and the first thing he saw was a drawn gun, even though the jury has already seen, in the video, that the gun didn't come out until Floyd refused to comply with repeated orders to show his hands.
• that Floyd's death was intentional, even though they showed zero evidence of intent.

Anyone who feels they need to lie so badly that they lie to people they have every reason to believe know better has no legitimate case. Otherwise, you'd just let the evidence speak for itself.
And remember, it's prosecutors like this that help convict minorities in court every day. How much of that is accomplished by lying too?

 

[Bells]

From Wikipedia, "According to the FBI, African-Americans accounted for 55.9% of all homicide offenders in 2019, with whites 41.1%, and "Other"/Unknown 3.0% in cases were the race was known."

You seem to leave this out for some reason.

So, your response is to change the subject entirely and go by way of blacks commit more crime rubbish?

I could say I expected better from you, but in reality, you just follow the same stupid pattern of all racists.

Here. Some light reading:

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.1177/0021934719895999