George Floyd trial,could you make a case for the defendant not being guilty of the charges?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Seattle, Mar 30, 2021.

  1. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    How impartial could you be? Could you make or foresee a case for the cop (Chauvin) not being guilty of the charges brought against him?
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  3. Jeeves Valued Senior Member

    Sure. Can't prove intent to kill. He'd choked lots of suspects before and none of them died. They're just supposed to lose consciousness, maybe have a couple broken ribs and become very docile.
    Watch, they'll go with some version of that.
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  5. billvon Valued Senior Member

    Sure. Their case will be that Chauvin died because he was a dirty, filthy illegal drug user, and the drugs must have killed him. And he's an inner city type (wink wink nudge nudge) and you know what they are like.
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  7. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    That's impartial...
  8. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Found this earlier, in a related article:

    Under Minnesota statutes, a person can be charged with second-degree murder if they intentionally killed someone without premeditation or unintentionally killed someone while committing certain other offenses. A person can be charged with third-degree murder if they unintentionally cause “the death of another by perpetrating an act eminently dangerous to others and evincing a depraved mind, without regard for human life.”

    These are the charges in this case, so nope. Nothing that Floyd did warranted Chauvin's reaction, and it's not just Chauvin who was the problem. Three police officers, including Chauvin were holding Floyd down. No one came to his rescue. Police are taught to use force if necessary but they are also taught when to stop. Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck even after Floyd lost consciousness. There's a video, and many eye witnesses...I doubt he'll be acquitted.

    Chauvin's attorneys will likely bring in ''expert'' witnesses to convince the jury (and us) that Floyd's death wasn't solely the result of suffocation/choking by Chauvin, and there could have been other mitigating circumstances, but choking him is ultimately what killed him. (from the info I've read about the case)
  9. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    It's a politically charged case so that's an unknown factor.

    The defense will ask us to put ourselves in Chauvin's shoes. You have a suspect that is a large, struggling man who has been uncooperative from the beginning. They try to put him in the police car but he struggles to the point where 3 cops aren't able to get him in there.

    He says he is anxious and wants to be laid on the ground. Before they do anything he says he can't breathe. They lay him on the ground, he continues struggling and continues to say he can't breathe when it's obvious...he is breathing.

    They do the neck move, a crowd forms, yelling at the police. Chauvin eventually calls for an ambulance and continues to maintain control. We, the video viewer, see that he maintained control for several minutes too long. In hindsight it's clear since we know that George Floyd died.

    Maintain control is what cops do. They tried to put him in the car, he wanted to lay down, they laid him down, trying to control him and he died.

    He had a high level of Fentanyl and meth in his system. One coroner report played that up and one played that down. There was choking involved (that's the point of the technique). The arguments will involve competing medical "experts" and whether death could have been reasonably expected from Chauvin's actions.

    Even with 3rd degree murder (or whatever they call it in that jurisdiction) where intent isn't required it still requires "a depraved mind". Chauvin didn't do this hidden from public view as if he was trying to hide something. He wasn't visibly angry or out of control. He exercised poor judgement and was let go from the police force. Civil charges are still available.

    It's quite possible that he won't be convicted although I, of course, wouldn't be surprised if he is.

    The lesson to be taken, IMO, is that laws/regulations and training need to be changed and "officials" with authority who carry guns need to be held to the highest standards. Those standards have to be there in the first place though.

    Chauvin is probably a jaded guy at this point and there are probably many more out there like him. That's not good. That's what needs to change but since cops are usually given the benefit of the doubt since they are doing what we don't want to have to do, it's very possible that he won't be convicted.

    The problem is the whole system and not so much Chauvin. How would "you" deal with Floyd if you were the cop under those circumstances. Sure, no one is going to say "I'd kill him". Chauvin didn't go to work that day planning to kill him either. Even after he showed up on scene his plan was to get him into the back of the police car in any way possible.

    Given that scenario, and not already knowing what was going to happen (the death) what would the expected cop behavior be? (and I say this even though the end of the video was hard for me to watch just as it was for everyone else).

    The longer video at least put the whole day into perspective and not just those last few minutes.
  10. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    Well, what has been coming out with this case is that Floyd had fentanyl and meth in his system at the time of his death. (according to the autopsy) I'd imagine however, that cops are trained to deal with situations that involve people being high during arrest attempts. As I watched the video clip again today (played during the trial), it struck me that four cops couldn't properly get a handle on the situation. Four cops couldn't handle arresting one, unarmed man? That's a problem unto itself, but I wonder why they didn't call for more backup, or an ambulance to transport Floyd to the hospital first, since he seemed under physical duress.

    The reason why I think Chauvin won't be acquitted, is that he should have known better, and there is video evidence. This isn't a case of he said/they said, it's very clear watching the video, that Chauvin was ''punishing'' Floyd, not trying to get the situation under control. Once they all subdued Floyd, they should have attempted to assist him back into the police car. He didn't help Floyd, for whatever his reason, despite hearing Floyd pleading for his life and eye witnesses asking for Chauvin to get off his neck. At that point, a reasonable juror may come away feeling that Chauvin in that given moment, simply didn't care if he killed Floyd. Maybe he didn't think he'd kill him, that is also true. I'm seeing a cop on a weird power trip in that video, who decided to excessively punish Floyd, recklessly abandoning his reasoning. Why the other three didn't stop him, don't know. That's another problem with our police ''system'' in the US...this cult like behavior that you can't speak up when you see unethical/illegal behavior with your coworkers.

    The defense looked pretty unprepared today to be honest, and didn't object or cross examine much at all.
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2021
  11. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    If 4 cops couldn't handle him, then you certainly can't expect an EMT and an ambulance driver to be able to do it. They also must have to deal with high people all the time and they don't usually die and therefore they weren't expecting that outcome this time either.

    I'm not sure what "he should have known better" means given that they probably do this all the time. This didn't seem like an exceptional situation to Chauvin did it?

    Floyd had been pleading for his life from the moment that they talked to him in his (Floyd's) car 30 minutes prior. It looks bad to us, the general public, viewing the video. We aren't cops.

    I'm just saying that there is a reason for the courts and there is a reason that there are often riots after a court verdict. It's because "we" are emotional and the court system "tries" to be more reasonable. Otherwise we would just have mob justice.
  12. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    He should have known better than to kneel on Floyd's neck for nine minutes. He continued to kneel on Floyd's neck after he was unconscious. The crowd that was forming told him to get off of him, to take his pulse, etc. Chauvin continued kneeling on Floyd's neck.

    That's why there is a trial, because that's a crime. If Chauvin is accustomed to doing whatever he wants during an arrest (and by sheer luck, no one has died until Floyd) then, it's caught up to him. (We don't know this, but if you're under the impression that maybe this is customary behavior for Chauvin, that's my answer.)
  13. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    I can't say that you are wrong. I just can't say that without any question you are right. That's why there is a trial. There is no crime if he isn't convicted.

    What the crowd tells a cop isn't that pertinent. They often tell a cop, "Leave that guy alone" but we don't expect a cop to actually do that.

    I do agree that the last couple of minutes of the video looks bad. If he had stopped 2 minutes earlier we wouldn't be having a trial even if George Floyd had still died.
  14. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    Such an emotional reaction that you couldn't even get the victim's name right, even though it's been broadcast for months.
  15. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    I'm not trying to convince you of anything, watch the trial and draw your own conclusions. Have you watched the entire video clip from when the cops first approach Floyd, to when he ended up on the ground?
  16. Vociferous Valued Senior Member

    Where in those laws are you reading anything about what the victim did? Did Chauvin "intentionally kill"? What's the motive? Did he "unintentionally kill while committing other offenses"? What other offenses? Was the act he was trained to perform as a cop "eminently dangerous"? Why do they train cops to use it, and why hasn't there been any issue with it until now? Didn't the whole video show Chauvin tried to accommodate Floyd in every way possible? He offered to turn the AC on, leave the window down, stay with him, and laid him on the ground like he asked.

    All while Floyd resisted, saying he couldn't breathe as soon as he was in cuffs.

    They are also trained to perform that exact act and be vigilant in potentially dangerous situations, like a gathering crowd of agitated people.

    That is not a choke hold, nor meant to cut off air supply. If it were, he would have lost consciousness much earlier and they would have loaded him in the car without resistance. So it sounds like you would have preferred they use an actual choke hold.
  17. Beer w/Straw Transcendental Ignorance! Valued Senior Member

    F#CK I'm stoned

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    I liked and unliked your post two times.

    I never paid much attention the, George Floyd, case on purpose so I never have to talk about it -I hold no opinion

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  18. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    I haven't watched any of the trial but I have watched the entire video clip. I thought they were rather calm the whole time given how he was acting and the only surprising part was the last two minutes after George was quiet and they should have realized that it was OK to get up at that point. I didn't see anything improper in their actions or attitude while they were trying to get him into the car.

    I haven't read the latest as to whether the 3rd degree charge was allowed. There was a challenge at one point. If there is no 3rd degree charge there is no way he will be convicted. With the 3rd degree, it's all up to the jury and his defense.

    Is that how they were trained to handle that situation? Is that how they usually do it? Does it usually turn out all right?

    I don't know. I'm not a cop.
  19. wegs Matter and Pixie Dust Valued Senior Member

    I believe that the cause of Floyd’s death was cardiac arrest. The prosecution needs to prove that despite mitigating factors (Floyd was high, he tested positive for Covid, etc) the stress and physical duress that he was under with Chauvin kneeling on his neck for too long, contributed to his death. I don’t think the autopsy revealed that Floyd’s death was caused solely by Chauvin’s actions. That’s all the prosecution needs to prove, I think.

    Would Floyd be alive had Chauvin not knelt on his neck for nine minutes? That’s what the prosecution should be getting the jury to think about. The defense will likely use the mitigating factors as the only reason Floyd died.

    That’s quite a coincidence that Floyd was probably going to die anyway and Chauvin’s actions had nothing to do with his death, yet Floyd lost consciousness while Chauvin was on him. Lol That’s kinda what you’re saying.
  20. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    I'm not saying that. I'm saying that he started saying that he couldn't breathe before anyone touched him. So if he really couldn't breathe then he got himself so agitated with all the drugs in his system that perhaps he would have died in the back of the police car.

    If not, then he actually could breathe. He said I can't breathe 27 times. You can't do that and actually be breathing. So how is a cop supposed to believe that he can't breathe one minute and not believe it all the other times?

    In the stress of the moment, it could certainly be argued by the defense, that this is too much second guessing by outsiders and that no one would take the job of police officer if that becomes the standard.

    That's what I think they'll argue. I'm not saying that I know that he is innocent. I'm just trying not to second guess what happened without all the facts. He is not a sympathetic person so it's easier to just make a quick judgement. When everyone is sure that someone is guilty it just raises my interest at bit.

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    Just because there will be protests, talk about BLM, and because most of the news isn't being impartial doesn't make him more guilty. If he is guilty, it's because he kept the knee hold on too long and if that meets the requirements for one of these charges...then he is guilty. If not, he's not. I don't like cops in general so this isn't a easy position for me to take.

    As an aside, even though I generally agree with MSNBC, and CBS I don't like that I can generally tell their "politics". This is dating me for sure, Walter Cronkite was boring and the news in general was boring when I was a kid. It was 30 minutes in the evening. You couldn't guess Walter Cronkite's political views.

    Those days are gone. If that wasn't the case there would be more people on TV who weren't quite so sure regarding this case (and every other case). That's where I'm coming from.
  21. Seattle Valued Senior Member

    By the way, they have to show more than he wouldn't have died had Chauvin not arrested him. It was lawful for Chauvin to arrest him and if that "excitement" triggered a heart attack, that by it's self would not break any laws. If Chauvin knew that he had a weak heart and that arresting him would result in a heart attack, that would be another matter.

    They have to show that kneeing on his neck caused the heart attack and that Chauvin should have known that.
  22. Bells Staff Member

    Wow, a bunch of white people trying to determine how a white police officer could be found not guilty of murdering a black man. Interesting.. You could be his jury!

    Gross, no?

    If you watch the video, you would see that Floyd was actually in the police car. Firstly, there are numerous things in the video that shine a light on police action that should raise a lot of questions. Firstly, Floyd did not resist arrest and was complying with police - this was before Chauvin arrived and killed him. A gun was initially pulled when Floyd was still in his car. And that was put away and he was dragged out and cuffed. He then complied, sat against a wall and spoke to police. Secondly, when Floyd is taken to the police car across the road, the second police car that had responded earlier did a u-turn and parked closer to the first police car. But then they do something interesting, they move forward to block the cctv camera that was across the road and that becomes obvious when the officer gets out of his car and looks directly into the camera. So it was clear something was going badly. Chauvin and his 17 complaints against him then arrives.

    Floyd was completely inside the police car. Chauvin then opens the door on the opposite side, reaches in and drags him across the backseat of the police car and puts him on the ground and kneels on his neck. Three other officers join him and help him, supposedly to restrain Floyd. The 4th officer tries to body block the the cameras being held by the angry people who had stopped and were begging the Chauvin to get off his neck as he was losing consciousness. The entire time they were kneeling on him, they were telling him to get up and get in the car and when he tried to move, the knee on his neck was pressed down harder and harder. When he told them he could not breathe and it was clear he was in medical distress, they told him it would stop if he could get up and get in the car. When he tried to move, that knee pressed down harder.

    So perhaps you can stop being such a partisan dishonest hack and actually address the facts of the case.

    Watch the video:
    They are also trained to kill. In this case, they also delayed his medical treatment numerous times..

    By 8:25, Floyd appeared unconscious, and bystanders confronted the officers about Floyd's condition. Chauvin pulled out mace to keep bystanders away as Thao moved between them and Chauvin.[83][84] Bystanders repeatedly yelled that Floyd was "not responsive right now" and urged the officers to check his pulse.[12]:5:22[16]:6:53[8] Kueng checked Floyd's wrist but found no pulse;[8] the officers did not attempt to provide Floyd with medical assistance.[16]:6:46 According to the criminal complaint against Chauvin, Lane asked Chauvin twice if they should move Floyd onto his side,[85] and Chauvin said no.[16]:7:02

    At 8:27 pm, a Hennepin County ambulance arrived.[12]:5:56[16]:7:11 Shortly thereafter, a young relative of the owner of Cup Foods attempted to intervene, but was pushed back by Thao.[12]:6:03 Emergency medical technicians checked Floyd's pulse.[16]:7:17 Chauvin kept his knee on Floyd's neck for almost a minute after the ambulance arrived, despite Floyd being silent and motionless.[16]:7:21 Prosecutors said that Chauvin's knee was on Floyd's neck for seven minutes and forty-six seconds.[a][12]:6:27[16]:7:28[8]

    Around 8:29, Floyd was lifted by paramedics onto a stretcher,[86] then loaded into an ambulance.[16]:7:43[8] Lane boarded the ambulance and checked Floyd's pulse at his neck, and a medic instructed him to perform cardiopulmonary resuscitation.[87] A medical device was placed on Floyd's chest to provide mechanical chest compressions,[87] and the ambulance departed for Hennepin County Medical Center.[12]:6:35[16]:7:43[8]

    En route, the ambulance requested assistance from the Minneapolis Fire Department.[12]:6:35[16]:7:43[8] At 8:32, firefighters arrived at Cup Foods;[12]:6:56[16]:7:56 according to their report, the police officers gave no clear information regarding Floyd's condition or whereabouts, which delayed their ability to find the ambulance.[16]:7:56[88] Meanwhile, the ambulance reported that Floyd was entering cardiac arrest and again requested assistance, asking firefighters to meet them at the corner of 36th Street and Park Avenue. Five minutes later, the fire department reached the ambulance;[16]:8:10 two fire department medics who boarded the ambulance found Floyd unresponsive and pulseless.

    Even after they found no pulse, Chauvin refused to remove his knee from his neck. And then they further delayed his getting medical help.

    What? Did police training not tell them that if someone has no pulse, they are probably dead?

    Their actions were concerning enough that 911 dispatcher who was handling the case, monitoring the situation via live cctv cameras, contacted a police sergeant to tell them that Chauvin and co were doing something bad. A member of the fire department, who was a bystander, also advised them that Chauvin was in medical distress and tried to take his pulse, was threatened with pepper spray by Chauvin as he remained on Floyd's neck even after there was no pulse. []
  23. Bells Staff Member

    As someone who is asthmatic, I can assure you, you can actually do that when you have difficulty breathing.

    Having had attacks where I collapsed and went blue, I went down still telling people I could not breathe. You would be surprised at how much not wanting to die makes you communicate what is wrong, despite what others may believe.

    And we know he could not breathe, because he died. You could watch the time it happened. It was all caught on camera.

    That's nice.

    Except Chauvin did not arrest him. He had already been arrested and was being placed in a police car when Chauvin arrived, where upon Chauvin dragged him out of a police car - by dragging him across the back seat of the police car, and then knelt on his neck until he died. You can see it in the video I linked to Vociferous, above.

    When Lane checked his pulse and found no pulse, Chauvin still failed to lift his knee and provide medical assistance. He still kept his knee on that man's neck even after the ambulance arrived. And they then delayed medical assistance when the fire truck arrived at the request of the paramedics and they refused to tell them where the ambulance was going or Floyd's condition.

    But fear not. Chauvin's lawyers went with the tried and much used argument of the black man's size and strength, buying into the racist myth that has existed since white people chained and whipped black people in America and then dropped this bomb:

    Also here:

    Nelson, predictably, used his opening statement to try to make Floyd the defendant and onlookers his accomplices. Several times, he highlighted Floyd’s physical size — which should come as no surprise. Throughout U.S. history, the idea of Black men as superhuman in their strength and subhuman in how they use it has been used to justify our restraint, our incarceration, our lynching.

    Nelson also sought to justify Chauvin’s actions by saying Chauvin and the other officers had to “divert” their attention to the small crowd that had gathered to watch what was happening and to complain about how Floyd was being treated. Again, this was unintentionally revealing: Those bystanders, like Floyd, were citizens whom those officers were sworn to protect. They were not the enemy, and no video we have seen indicates they posed any threat to Chauvin or his colleagues.

    The opening statements made clear that much will be made of Floyd’s medical cause of death. Nelson indicated he will claim that Floyd died of an overdose of opioids. We can expect testimony from dueling experts on the question.

    We should know by now — after so many travesties, including George Zimmerman’s acquittal for killing Trayvon Martin — that it is all too possible to convince juries to blame the victim if the victim is a Black man.

    They had apparently diverted their attention to the crowd that had gathered telling them to get off his neck and check his pulse because he was not responding... Instead of apparently "caring" for Floyd. Which is how and why this happened. Because they were called names like "bum".

    I guess this explains why he looked so relaxed with his hands in his pocket as he did it, and why he kept it there even after the ambulance arrived and why they then refused to tell the fire department where the ambulance had gone after the FD was called in to provide assistance as Floyd was in active cardiac arrest in the ambulance.

    They blamed the victim because he's a big black man.

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