Gender identity: Crazy/delusional?

Discussion in 'Human Science' started by Dinosaur, Feb 27, 2017.

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  1. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    It's the non-enabled that have the suicide rate.
    That's not true. And it's not central to self-representation.
     
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  3. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    What "delusions" are you talking about?
    Meanwhile, kindness is a minor issue - avoiding gratuitous and injurious meanness, would be more to the point.
     
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  5. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Prove it. You know, causation instead of mere correlation.

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    Enabling, in the form of transitioning, increases mortality: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3043071/
    Really? Can you cite an instance of a person who fully passed as the gender of the facility they used being stopped, harassed, arrested, etc.?

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    Who said it was central to self-representation?

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    http://www.schizophrenic.com/content/schizophrenia/symptoms/schizophrenia-delusions
    Yes, we know. You think you're feelings trump facts.

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  7. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    I asserted correlation, which contradicts your posted innuendo.

    It's obvious, because the movement to "enable", as you put it, is recent and not yet successful in most places, while the suicide rates are older and ubiquitous. So it's been not enabling, rather than enabling, that has correlated with suicide.
    So nothing to do with this thread - that's what I figured.
    It's "your". And I didn't mention my feelings - they haven't been involved.
     
  8. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    What difference does "fully passing" make?
     
  9. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    Contrary to the study I cited demonstrating mortality AFTER transition. IOW, no change between non-enabled and enabled, making your argument about the past moot (and before you even made it

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    ). Science denier.
    I made an analogy to schizophrenic delusion, and you asked "what 'delusions'". Sounded as if you didn't understand schizophrenia.
    If gender dysphoria is psychological (still an open question), there is a delusional component.
    This is a transparent appeal to emotion (specifically an appeal to pity).
    Who would think twice about someone who looks like the appropriate gender for the facility?
     
  10. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    "Laurel Hubbard, 39, cruised to victory on Sunday at the Australian International in Melbourne, an key step in representing New Zealand at the 2017 Commonwealth Games.

    Athletes say Hubbard, previously known as the male weightlifter Gavin Hubbard, is at an unfair advantage — even if the International Olympic Committee says otherwise.
    ...
    Hubbard lifted a combined total of 590.9 pounds in the women’s 198.4-pound division, besting the runner up by almost 45 pounds."
    - http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2017/mar/21/laurel-hubbard-transgender-athlete-crushes-female-/
     
  11. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    Transparent appeal to subjective gender norms.
     
  12. billvon Valued Senior Member

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    North Carolina republicans.
     
  13. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    "Transition" has nothing to do with the enabling under discussion.
    The topic was enabling via changes in laws and customs - that has not happened yet, and the suicide rates are correlated with that state of affairs.
    It sounds as if you are pretending to not understand your attempted "analogy". As we see immediately:
    So, again: what delusion? What exactly are you referring to as a "delusional component"?
    No, it isn't. It's an observation of a moral and ethical situation.
    You people are really not up on this whole human dimension of morality and ethics, are you - it's all strange to you, you keep wandering off and talking about feelings. Other people's. Always other people's feelings.

    Is there something you want to share, maybe on another thread?
     
  14. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    And? It's those exact gender norms that the most common form of transgenderism (opposite of their assigned sex, e.g. trans men and trans women) seek to emulate, to the extreme of even hormone therapy and/or GRS.
    And the transgenders who identify as genderqueer, e.g. bigender, pangender, genderfluid, or agender, have no real argument for using oppose sex facilities. Advocating genderqueer freedom to use the facilities they identify with that day is an outright advocacy for unisex facilities. But maybe that's your real goal, and people need to take that slippery slope seriously.
    No, that was just your own assumed limitation on enabling. And again, you don't seem to understand correlation. Just because two things happen concurrently does not mean they are dependent....a requirement of correlation. LOL! Even just saying the "state of affairs" has never significantly differed ("has not happened yet") literally means a dependent relationship between the two cannot be tested.

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    Gender identity disorder (GID), recently renamed gender dysphoria (GD), is a rare condition characterized by an incongruity between gender identity and biological sex. Clinical evidence suggests that schizophrenia occurs in patients with GID at rates higher than in the general population and that patients with GID may have schizophrenia-like personality traits.
    - https://www.hindawi.com/journals/schizort/2014/463757/

    In the Netherlands it has recently become possible for transsexual patients to receive hormonal treatment from the onset of puberty. Until the age of 16, pubertal development can be prevented with luteinizing hormone-releasing hormone (LHRH) agonists. From 16 years of age onwards, gender adjustment can be initiated by administration of hormones of the opposite sex. Surgical treatment can be offered once the patient reaches 18 years of age. Although such treatment will only be initiated with reticence and after a long phase of intense diagnostic screening, the question arises whether a clear differentiation can be made between pure gender identity disorders and secondary transsexual feelings that are part of an ongoing psychopathological development, such as schizophrenia. The potential diagnostic confusion is illustrated by a case history of a male schizophrenic patient. This patient had been treated hormonally for transsexualism for years before acute psychotic decompensation occurred. Neuroleptic treatment of the psychosis rapidly reduced the psychotic symptoms. In retrospect, the patient regards his transsexual period as a 'mistake'. Delusions about one's physical appearance and the urge to drastically change the way one looks appear to be relatively common in patients suffering from schizophrenia.
    - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11605311

    Also just the simple definition of delusion...maintaining fixed false beliefs even when confronted with facts. Such as denying the fact of genetic sex to the extent of changing the superficial appearance of gender. Identity being nothing more than a fixed belief.
    "You people"? Bigot!
    This argument of yours is basically, it's bad to be a meanie. It's moral judgement based almost exclusively (being generous) on a subjective emotional reaction.
     
  15. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    You misconceive correlation. Dependency is not required - mistaking a correlation for a dependency is a basic, well-known error. Confusing the concepts themselves does not even rise to the level of error - it's just ignorance, unfamiliarity with the vocabulary and the subject.

    I correctly pointed to a correlation between the non-enabling state we are in and have been in, as a society until now, and the high suicide rates. This conflicts with your innuendo that enabling is what raises the suicide rate, and so we should not adjust laws, customs, etc, to enable.
    No, it's not based on subjective, or emotional, or subjective emotional, or any other reaction. None of that is involved.
    You obviously have no idea what my argument is.
    And this blank-brained response to moral or ethical observation, argument, etc, is typical of you guys - characteristic. You see, or imagine, or want to talk about, moral or ethical content in a post, and you start rambling about other people's personal feelings - almost always without knowing what they are, btw, but that's not even the central problem.
    So you have no answer to the question, no particular "delusional component" or "false fact" in mind;

    unless we are to believe that you think transexual people do not know what their "genetic sex" is, which would be stupid. Transexual people are on average among the best informed people on earth about their own chromosomes.
     
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2017
  16. Capracus Registered Senior Member

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    Hubbard may have beat her nearest competitor in the competition by 45 lbs, but she would have lost to the best woman in the world by 177 lbs. These non trans women weight lifters could physically dominate the average occupant of most men's locker rooms, can you imagine the carnage if they showed up at a women's? To ensure the physical and emotional welfare of our wives and daughters, keep these monsters out of women's locker rooms used by the general public, and restrict them to designated training centers.
     
  17. spidergoat Valued Senior Member

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    As most moral judgements are.
    And which you don't want to allow, but only if they aren't really good at it. Maybe you and Trump can get together and give them a rating from 1 to 10.
     
  18. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    LOL! WOW! You are so abysmally ignorant of science. You know what correlation without any dependence between the things correlated is? It's called spurious correlation, of which these are examples: http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations (including US spending on science, space, and technology correlating with suicides by hanging, strangulation and suffocation)
    In statistics, a spurious relationship or spurious correlation is a mathematical relationship in which two or more events or variables are not causally related to each other (i.e. they are independent), yet it may be wrongly inferred that they are, due to either coincidence or the presence of a certain third, unseen factor (referred to as a "common response variable", "confounding factor", or "lurking variable").
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spurious_relationship
    What's the opposite of independent again? Oh right, dependent.

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    What little credibility you may have had left is gone. You have been caught trolling-without-a-clue.

    No wonder you've flubbed correlation so spectacularly in some of our previous discussions. But by all means, keep talking...any continuing to remove all doubt.

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    I'll refer you to spidergoat's post:
    There you go again, denying facts and making bare assertions as if they refute facts.

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    You're really becoming a very pitiable figure.
    That argument is nothing but a false comparison. Not only are you trying to compare peak physical women to average men, but also the accomplishment of a 198.4 lb lifter to a 238.5 lb lifter.
    Agreed.
     
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    A spurious correlation is, in the first place, statistically, a correlation. You can calculate the correlation coefficient from the data, if it's the right kind.

    I've had occasion to calculate the correlation coefficients between sequences of random numbers.
    Nothing spidergoat can post is going to rewrite my posts to produce in them an argument based on a reaction, subjective or emotional or otherwise.
    You can correct me by pointing to, or posting, some kind of description or hint or clue as to what you could possibly have been talking about in your reference to "delusions" being suffered by transgender people - the non-schizophrenic majority of trans people. Your allusion to them being deluded about which chromosomes they harbor was obviously silly, and so must have been unintentional, but that leaves us with nothing. What are you talking about?
     
  20. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    You're still clueless. You were merely playing with numbers, not making any causal connection. But you probably think you were doing science.

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    The term "spurious relationship" is commonly used in statistics and in particular in experimental research techniques, both of which attempt to understand and predict direct causal relationships (X → Y). A non-causal correlation can be spuriously created by an antecedent which causes both (W → X and W → Y). Intervening variables (X → W → Y), if undetected, may make indirect causation look direct. Because of this, experimentally identified correlations do not represent causal relationships unless spurious relationships can be ruled out.
    - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spurious_relationship#Detecting_spurious_relationships
    I think iceaura doth protest too much.

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    Already asked and answered. I never said anything about "them being deluded about which chromosomes they harbor", so that's a lying straw man.
    Again, it's obvious you are clueless...and apparently only becoming more so.

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  21. Capracus Registered Senior Member

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    You made the claim that feminized former men like Caitlyn Jenner were a danger to women in locker rooms because of their perceived strength advantage. Trans women like Jenner who are on HRT have reduced muscle mass and physical strength, and on average are going to be weaker than the average XY man. If there are XX women that are stronger than the average man, then they are certainly stronger than nearly all trans women. So by your reasoning the presence of these strong women in women’s locker rooms should be equally objectionable.

    First you mistook the trans boy HS wrestler for a genetic boy, and now you mistake the trans woman weightlifter’s weight for the competition weight class. Comprehentionally you seem to be taking after your president.

    Kiwi weightlifter Laurel Hubbard has dominated her first major competition, taking out the Australian International in Melbourne on a night she made history as the first transgender athlete to represent New Zealand.


    Hubbard, 39, won the women's over 90kg division at the Melbourne event, setting four unofficial national records in the process. Hubbard lifted a combined total of 268kg - 19kg better than silver medallist Iuniarra Sipaia of Samoa.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=11821399


    Hubbard’s division is 90 kg+, but her body weight is 131.83 kg(290 lbs), which is about 9 kg heavier thanIuniarra Sipaia, her rival in the competition, but 23 kg heavier than the record holder Tatiana Kashirina, who weighs 108 kg(238 lbs). Hubbard has a 52 lb weight advantage over the XX woman who can out lift her by 177 lbs.
     
  22. Syne Sine qua non Valued Senior Member

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    You're absolutely right! I did hastily read that and misremember the other. Good catches.
    In September 2006, Kashirina was suspended from competition for two years after failing an anti-doping control. - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatiana_Kashirina#Doping_sanctions

    All of Russia's weightlifters were banned from the Rio Olympics [2016] on Friday for doping for what the international federation called "extremely shocking" results that brought the sport into "disrepute."
    ...
    Two female weightlifters — Tatiana Kashirina and Anastasiia Romanova — were withdrawn by the Russian federation for earlier doping offenses. The names of the other banned lifters were not announced.
    - http://www.nbcolympics.com/news/russian-weightlifters-banned-rio-olympics-doping
    So there's still some suspicion of a faulty comparison, but the clearly valid comparison is setting national records against own countrywomen.

    Not all transgenders opt for HRT or even transition.
     
  23. iceaura Valued Senior Member

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    Exactly. Because a statistical correlation - such as the positive one between transgender suicide rates and a non-enabling society - does not necessarily imply a causal connection of any kind. You can easily find correlations between factors that are essentially random in association, even - as independent as two factors can be.
    You used the term "genetic sex", in your only attempt so far to identify or describe the delusions transgender people supposedly suffer. The genetic sex determinant in humans is the XX, XY chromosome structure.

    So we have nothing, again. You claim transgender people harbor delusions: what are you talking about? What delusions do they harbor?
     
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