A new phenomena

[James R]

Magical Realist,

I'm not quite sure how to continue with this. Let me try to summarise. You posted a video that either is a crude fake, or else shows a stunning "new phenomena". Given the choice between those two options, you write:

I never said aliens did it. I merely mentioned their probable existence. At this point I'm leaning towards the wormhole theory. But as I said in the OP, I might be wrong.

In other words, given the video alone - for you have nothing else to go on here - you claim that it is more likely that an unexplained wormhole appeared for an unknown reason and swallowed a car than that somebody used a computer to crudely edit a run-of-the-mill snippet of CCTV video for their own entertainment, profit or fame.

You have nothing to offer regarding corroborating evidence of your unlikely claim, and no theory about how such a thing could conceivably happen. The best you have to offer is this:

No magic necessary. Just a quick rupture in spacetime, a wormhole, and zap!..the car is gone.

How do ruptures in spacetime occur? You don't know. Has any such rupture ever been confirmed by anybody? No. How do wormholes behave, according to the physicists who are expert on the topic? You have no idea. Could a wormhole as described by the experts conceivably swallow a car off a highway, leaving no other trace? You don't know.

In other words, you consider it more likely that a miracle occurred than that somebody scammed you.

I also asked you a simple question: try to estimate the chances of your own truck having been stolen by somebody (a mundane explanation) vs the chances that it vanished into thin air, was kidnapped by aliens, vanished by God or some other supernatural explanation. Your reply? This:

LOL! I have no idea...

You have no idea. I guess your think it's as likely that your car spontaneously turned into a tortoise and crawled away by itself as it is that somebody came along, broke into it and stole it. Or at least, that's what you'd have us believe.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that your mind really is so open that you've lost all critical faculties, or else you never developed such faculties in the first place. Again, I wonder how you get along in everyday life. The only way I can imagine you could operate effectively is if you're somehow able to compartmentalise the woo from the common sense. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's all woo and everything is possible when you're on the internet, while in real life you would be actually be surprised and shocked if something fell upwards rather than downwards, or spontaneously turned into a turtle.

You have said that you find the universe to be an amazing place. That makes me wonder why you choose to waste so much of your time and effort on fantasy, instead of trying to learn about the amazing place that you say so fascinates you.

Also, for somebody who claims to have an inquiring mind, you seem spectacularly uninterested in researching any of the miraculous new phenomena you keep posting about. You're content to stop before you start the investigation, taking the first piece of evidence presented to you on anything - bigfoot, disappearing cars, the photo of a ghost - at face value, and never seeking to investigate even the basics.

Who posted the video? You don't know and you don't care to find out. Why did they post it? You don't know and you don't care to find out. Were the driver of the disappeared car and the car itself really never seen again? You don't know, and you don't care to find out. Did anybody else observe this miracle? You don't know and you don't care to find out. How could such a video be faked? Would it be easy or difficult? You don't know, and you don't care to find out. Does the person or persons involved in posting this video have a history of fraud? You don't know, and you don't care to find out.

And you repeat this same apparent lack of curiosity with every piece of woo you post to sciforums. "Look guys! Here's a photo somebody claims is of a ghost! Interesting!" But not interesting enough to spend any time investigating or questioning. No. Post it and move on to the next UFO video, or whatever. Always accept at face value. Never engage your brain.

And all this is strange because it looks to me like you have a brain that you could engage. You can muster an argument to have with me. You can apply your critical faculties to my posts. So why don't you apply them to the woo? Why is it immune from your investigation or criticism?

In my next post, I'll respond to some more of your specific replies to my previous posts.

 

[James R]

Magical Realist:

You don't know [tunneling] doesn't happen with macroscopic objects.

I've already told you that it is so spectacularly improbable that we can be almost certain that such a singular event has never occurred in the lifetime of our universe. You would have us believe that it has happened at least twice. After all, you posted two videos at the top of the thread. And that's twice in the same year?

I already gave you the scenario of wormholes. These very well COULD exist, and since we have no estimate on how often they open up, they would provide an explanation for why the car disappeared.

We know that they don't open up commonly, at least on Earth, or else we'd see cars and houses and people and trees and and stuff vanishing regularly, wouldn't we?

What do you think the rate of worm hole disappearances (of all objects on Earth) is? Any idea? No? I thought not. Or is it just enough to suit you when you need a magical explanation for an apparent disappearance?

Here's a recent proof backed by hard science on how wormholes might exist:

http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/cambridge-physicists-find-wormhole-proof

http://bigthink.com/ideafeed/cambridge-physicists-find-wormhole-proof
First words of the article: "Physicists at the University of Cambridge have found a theoretical foundation for the existence of wormholes...". First, this is a theory, not a proof that wormholes exist. Second, I can't tell from the article whether this explanation is generally accepted by other physicists or whether it is speculative. Third: nothing in this proof supports the idea of wormholes randomly appearing, swallowing cars off roads and then disappearing again. Not even close.

For all we know that's how wormholes work. They appear randomly and suck in loose objects depositing them somewhere else in space. The possibilities are endless.

Can you find any peer-reviewed scientific paper or reliable scientific source which supports your claim that wormholes can appear at random and suck in loose objects, depositing them somewhere else in space? Thought not.

There are no confirmed disappearances of cars into thin air that I know of. Do you know of any?

I posted two, one which you admitted you didn't even look at.

Interesting that you've jumped from videos posted on this internet, whose origin and authenticity you have made no effort to confirm, to "these are two confirmed vanishings of cars off the road".

These videos aren't confirmation of anything, Magical Realist.

Oh, and I went back and watched the second one. It too could be a fake, but at first glance it looks to me like the "disappearing car" simply accelerated away from the car behind it (the one with the camera). Nothing remarkable about that.

Er yes. If you have questions answer them yourself. I'm not about to jump thru hoops for you or anybody else.

Including yourself. Lazy and complacent.

 

[James R]

(continued)

And for the record, nobody mentioned miracles but you. A miracle is a God intervening into natural events and causing something to happen. I never proposed that as an explanation.

miracle (n.): A wonderful event occurring in the physical world attributed to supernatural powers; an awesome and exceptional example of something.

Do you think a car vanishing into thin air is an exceptional event? An awesome one? I think it would be both, if it were real. And since there's no plausible physical explanation that I know of, it seems we're left only with supernatural explanations - magic. I didn't mention God.

I'd have to believe that the car vanishing was a divine act of intervention to believe it was a miracle. I don't, so you bringing up miracles is a huge straw man.

Let's just call it magic then. Ok? No need for divine intervention, necessarily.

And once again, you have no idea cars can't do this because you don't watch all cars on earth 24/7 making sure they don't. You can't even cite a law of physics constraining cars from ever disappearing. You have yet to back your claim on anything more substantial than that you haven't seen one do it. And that's pretty flimsy. I've never seen two planets collide either. Is it therefore impossible? No..

Look, I already explained: you've got the onus of proof around the wrong way.

You are proposing that an extraordinary event has occurred. With it, you are suggesting an extraordinary explanation. In contrast, I am suggesting that an everyday event occurred (a video was faked), which requires no incredible leap into the unknown to accept.

The onus is on you to provide the extraordinary evidence for your extraordinary claims. It is not up to me to "prove me wrong". If you think objects can vanish into thin air, convince me. Where's the convincing evidence? Don't give me more fuzzy videos of dubious origin.

So [the Earth is] violating the very law you stated governing its rotation? That's interesting..

Yes, it is, rather.

The devil is always in the detail. Objects that rotate tend to keep rotating, if left to their own devices. That is why the Earth keeps rotating. But in the time of the dinosaurs the Earth had a 10 hour day, and now it has a 24 hour day. So, obviously it hasn't been left to its own devices. There's been a gradual lengthening of the day. Why? Because of the Moon. The physical principle is this: angular momentum is conserved unless an external torque acts on the rotating system. In this case, the Moon provides a small torque on the Earth, so that it doesn't quite rotate at a constant rate. Bear in mind that the dinosaurs lived more then 100 million years ago. You do the math. Work out how the average rate of change (seconds per century, say) that the Earth's rotation rate has been changing. It's a small effect, but one that becomes significant over very long times.

All this shows is that when you drill down into science apparently simple statements sometimes have to be modified to include small perturbations. When you ask me why the Earth keeps rotating, my first-order response is that there's nothing to stop it rotating. That's approximately true. The second-order response to a demand for more detail is that I start to explain why the first-order response is a little too simplified. And there's still more detail I haven't told you about the Earth's rotation. We could easily have a lengthy discussion about that, but it's off topic for this thread.

Once again, no inviolable law here that earth and the solar system MUST obey perfectly.

Actually, there's a whole bunch of fundamental laws that are obeyed perfectly (as far as we can tell).

It doesn't require magic for an alien to exist. It doesn't require magic for Bigfoot to exist. It doesn't even require magic for a car to disappear, assuming there is an actual physical mechanism for its disappearance.

You're right about the aliens and Bigfoot. Both are theoretical possibilities, but there's no actual evidence for their existence. We've already discussed the magical disappearance of cars at length, so I won't repeat.

I am uncomfortable limiting phenomena to only natural or supernatural. I don't think that dichotomy does justice to all that can happen out there. For instance, is anti-matter natural? Doesn't seem like it. Is dark matter natural? Maybe not. Is what happened prior to the Big Bang or whatever happens inside black holes natural. No, not in the since of abiding by the known laws of physics.

Anti-matter is observed in nature, confirmed in experiment, both predicted and described by solid scientific theory. It is indisputably natural. "Dark matter" is the name given to sum up a particular set of observations about our universe. We currently don't have a best-candidate theory of dark matter. Is it natural? Yes, insofar as it has observable effects in the natural world. It's not magic. We expect that science will find out more about it and eventually explain it.

The big bang and black holes both relate to observations of nature. The very concepts wouldn't exist in any concrete sense without science.

What you seem to want to do, desperately, is to equate the unknown with the supernatural. Scientists, on the other hand, simply acknowledge that things are unknown and they doggedly work towards knowing. Their aim is to explain. Your aim is to exclaim "Look! A mystery! Ok. That's done. Next!"

Then you admit the laws of physics as we currently construe them are not always adequate for understanding certain phenomena. That you don't know everything. That's good. So you agree a vanishing car could be operating according to some law or process we have yet to discover.

Yes. But you're getting way ahead of yourself. Step one is to establish that cars can vanish. Step two is working out how they can vanish. You missed step one and jumped straight into groundless speculation about step two.

I don't know how we measure the mass of earth or a black hole. With the black hole, I assume its mass correlates to its gravity. So it we can measure the gravity, we can determine the mass. Right?

One way is to put something in orbit around it at a known distance and measure the orbital period. In the case of the Earth, we have this convenient thing called the Moon, which handily gives us all the necessary data. [These days we can also do the job with artificial satellites.]

Videos of cars disappearing IS a new phenomena. At least it is to me.

Faked photos and videos aren't very new as far as I am concerned. They've been around almost since photography was invented.

Yeah..I'm posting material that entirely fits the title of this subforum: "Ghost, monsters, ufos...they are amongst us." If you didn't want stuff like this posted, then why did you provide a place for it to be posted in?

This is a discussion forum. With most of your posts there's actually nothing worth discussing. "Look! Somebody took a photo that they claim is an alien spacecraft! Wow!" What's to discuss. You didn't bother researching the photo. You just cut and pasted it from somewhere else. You didn't question it. You accepted it at face value. What you are, among other things, is a useful gullible tool that the fakers use to propagate their work.

 

[James R]

(continued...)

I assure you you aren't science. You are just a fallible human being marching under the banner of science in order to rid the world of unscientific claims. You are an adherent of scientism, the claim that science is the only true arbiter of what is true and real.

I am under no illusions that we can rid the world of unscientific claims, believe me.

I'm also not asking you accept science as the true arbiter etc. All I'm really suggesting is that you try to apply just a little critical thought to the stuff you're interested in. Not that I think for a moment that you'll spend any effort doing that.

Are you a scientist? Do you ask these questions on a daily basis? When you see a news segment on TV you you ask "What if this video is faked." or "What if this person is lying?" I find that hard to believe.

Yes, I am a skeptical consumer of what I see on TV and in other media. I do constantly ask myself questions like "Could this person be lying, or telling a half-truth?", "Who stands to benefit from this claim being true or believed?", "Is this source trustworthy?", "Could there be an ulterior motive at work here?", "What do other reliable sources have to say about this?"

If you don't ask these kinds of questions all the time in your daily life, you're doing yourself a disservice, because you will be sucked in by all manner of scammers - politicians, religious nuts, people out to scam your money, etc.

Your assumption that science has some sort of priveleged epistemic access to reality is a belief. You make that assumption because it supports your worldview that all of reality is physical and controlled by strict predictable laws. Science gives you an authority on which to base your beliefs, no less than religion does with God. It bolsters your self-confidence and ego to think you yourself are an authority that should not be questioned or defied.

I have no major argument with any of that. There's a minor quibble in that science is not authority-based in the way that religion is. And yes, my scientific training does bolster my confidence in discussing such matters - quite justifiably so, I think. If you were an expert baker, then I'm sure you'd think yourself somewhat of an authority on bread, over and above most of the general public.

It smacks of a sort psychological defense mechanism to compensate for some inner sense of uncertainty. Is your life uncertain James? Does science give you a sense of being more in charge of your future than you really are?

I doubt that I'm any more uncertain about being in charge of my future than the average person. In fact, I'd venture that I'm actually more comfortable than many in thinking that my future isn't under the control of some supernatural power, for example.

The only reason science works is because it keeps asking questions, even about the theories it has proposed in the past. It is constantly updating itself based on empiricle evidence. That I DO admire. The relentless penchant for questioning everything, even when we think we know all the answers.

If you so admire that questioning process, why do you accept nonsense like the car video without question? It seems you're willing to say one thing and do the opposite.

That's what science is for you? A baloney detection kit? A defense mechanism from being fooled by someone? I should hope it is more than that for you.

What do you hope it is?

Then you know there is really quite abit of evidence for alien spacecraft visiting earth. Why you would want to deny it is a mystery to me.

The evidence presented for alien spacecraft has failed to convince those who are in the best position to analyse it, whether they be scientists, the military, the government or whoever. The stuff I see put forward as evidence is usually of the lowest standard. It is dubious and unconvincing, especially given the extreme claims made for it.

I have a very convincing video of some of the best cases for ufos every made. Its about an hour and 47 minutes long though. But if you really want to objectively weigh the GOOD evidence, you can start there

I don't have time to get into that now, but I'll tell you what I'll do. I'll watch the first ten minutes (or any other 10 minutes you want me to watch). Then I'll comment on what I've seen. It might take me a couple of days to get to it.

Davis is physicist who has won many awards for his work in science. I'm sure he knows science as well if not better than you do.

What makes you sure?

So the blanket claim that scientists unilaterally reject all evidence of ufos is just plain wrong.

Yes. There are some scientists - very few in the grand scheme of things - who believe in alien visitation. That doesn't mean it is happening.

There is a whole community all around the world of scientists and military experts who agree on the validity of ufos.

Really? Do they have a web site? A peer-reviewed journal that they publish in? Where can I find out more?

 

[Magical Realist]

Whew! Another rambling attempt to deny something you simply have no basis for denying. Look, I think I was pretty clear in my OP. It could be a hoax. True. Cars disappearing on video appears to be new phenomena. True. And in the OFF chance it's real, then it bears looking at the video. True. Everything after that has been show of you trying to deny that such a thing could ever occur. First you cited the laws of physics as the reason. Then when I pressed you on that, you gave up and went into some strawman rant against the supernatural, which is something I didn't even evoke as an explanation. Frustrated, you then you attack me personally as lazy and complacent simply because I don't accept your claim that a car can't possibly vanish. That's when I cited a source proving the possibility of wormholes. Then we go into Nazi interrogation mode: what are the mathematical probabilities here? How does a wormhole happen? Why didn't I call the source of the video and confirm it for you? The burden is on YOU MR! Blah blah blah. Finally we arrive at a self-righteous touting of your own scientific prowess, your ability to predict statements, the power of science to determine everything with exact certainty, complaints about posting videos of unexplained events in the exact subforum made for it, and a half-hearted committal to actually view 10 minutes of a video showing evidence of UFOs. I'll await your objective opinion on the matter, but I won't hold my breath. You hold onto your view of reality based on what has and has not been published in peer reviewed journals, and I'll continue believing in my magical universe that I see around me everyday. There really doesn't seem to any more point in discussing this matter.

 

[Landau Roof]

First you cited the laws of physics as the reason.

James! How could you!? Referring to the laws oh physics! On a science forum of all places!?

 

[Quantum Quack]

...and you think disappearing cars are interesting... try sky diving elephants...

what is the world coming to...?

Now M.R. you may think that my video post is absurd and I will ask you why is that so?

It is no more absurd than a car disappearing on a high way...the key difference is that my video is not couched in some sort of conspiracy or fear based negativity. After all what harm is there in elephants jumping out of a plane?
Edit : I think the main and only reason (tongue in cheek) we can think of the elephants video as being unreal is because the elephants don't appear to be wearing parachutes.

Both the disappearing car video and the sky diving elephants are just as plausible don't you think?

Yet I am sure you will consider the elephant and other animals to be just special effects added to a real background (*?) and obviously for entertainment only.
Why?
Why not in the same terms as a disappearing car?


(*?) or is it a real back ground?

 

[Landau Roof]

After all what harm is there in elephants jumping out of a plane?

None, if they practice first.

And there's is nothing in the laws of physics or General Relativity forbidding it.

 

[Magical Realist]

Touche QQ. Well played..I hereby concede the vast improbability of elephants skydiving from a plane. A whale quantum fluctuating above an alien planet and plunging to it's death? Maybe not..

"It is important to note that suddenly, and against all probability, a sperm whale had been called into existence, several miles above the surface of an alien planet. And since this is not a naturally tenable position for a whale, this innocent creature had very little time to come to terms with its identity. This is what it thought, as it fell:

The Whale: Ahhh! Woooh! What's happening? Who am I? Why am I here? What's my purpose in life? What do I mean by who am I? Okay okay, calm down calm down get a grip now. Ooh, this is an interesting sensation. What is it? Its a sort of tingling in my... well I suppose I better start finding names for things. Lets call it a... tail! Yeah! Tail! And hey, what's this roaring sound, whooshing past what I'm suddenly gonna call my head? Wind! Is that a good name? It'll do. Yeah, this is really exciting. I'm dizzy with anticipation! Or is it the wind? There's an awful lot of that now isn't it? And what's this thing coming toward me very fast? So big and flat and round, it needs a big wide sounding name like 'Ow', 'Ownge', 'Round', 'Ground'! That's it! Ground! Ha! I wonder if it'll be friends with me? Hello, Ground!

[Cuts to a distant view as the whale hits the ground and spews up a large mushroom cloud of snow]

The Book: Curiously, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias, as it fell, was, "Oh no, not again!" Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly *why* the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now."==Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

 

[billvon]

...and you think disappearing cars are interesting... try sky diving elephants...

Next thing you know, James R is going to claim that everything in that video is faked!

 

[billvon]

Touche QQ. Well played..I hereby concede the vast improbability of elephants skydiving from a plane.

Another one of your rambling attempts to deny something you simply have no basis for denying. His post was very clear. It could be a hoax. True. Elephants skydiving appears to be new phenomena. True. And in the OFF chance it's real, then it bears looking at the video. True. Everything after that has been you trying to deny that such a thing could ever occur.

If you doubt that, the burden is on YOU MR! "Realist!" You are responsible for proving that elephants can't skydive. You could actually do the work, but I won't hold my breath. You hold onto your view of reality based on what you have seen elephants do, and I'll continue believing in my magical universe that I see around me everyday. There really doesn't seem to any more point in discussing this matter.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Touche QQ. Well played..I hereby concede the vast improbability of elephants skydiving from a plane. A whale quantum fluctuating above an alien planet and plunging to it's death? Maybe not..

"It is important to note that suddenly, and against all probability, a sperm whale had been called into existence, several miles above the surface of an alien planet. And since this is not a naturally tenable position for a whale, this innocent creature had very little time to come to terms with its identity. This is what it thought, as it fell:

The Whale: Ahhh! Woooh! What's happening? Who am I? Why am I here? What's my purpose in life? What do I mean by who am I? Okay okay, calm down calm down get a grip now. Ooh, this is an interesting sensation. What is it? Its a sort of tingling in my... well I suppose I better start finding names for things. Lets call it a... tail! Yeah! Tail! And hey, what's this roaring sound, whooshing past what I'm suddenly gonna call my head? Wind! Is that a good name? It'll do. Yeah, this is really exciting. I'm dizzy with anticipation! Or is it the wind? There's an awful lot of that now isn't it? And what's this thing coming toward me very fast? So big and flat and round, it needs a big wide sounding name like 'Ow', 'Ownge', 'Round', 'Ground'! That's it! Ground! Ha! I wonder if it'll be friends with me? Hello, Ground!

[Cuts to a distant view as the whale hits the ground and spews up a large mushroom cloud of snow]

The Book: Curiously, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias, as it fell, was, "Oh no, not again!" Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly *why* the bowl of petunias had thought that we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now."==Hitchhiker's Guide To The Galaxy

hee hee...
Reminds me of the novel "Peter Pan" by J.M. Barrie (1860-1937)
and his characters "lovely wonderful thoughts" that are able to allow him to fly and stay youthful for ever...
...thus "escaping" the mundane and ordinary and have an adventure in Neverland.

 

[Quantum Quack]

btw MR, please don't interpret my words as ridicule...for as you already most probably know I am also a believer in ET and paranormal activities.

It is just that when venturing into the most often grey and confusing world of the paranormal and/or psychic phenomena, it is very, very easy to be self deceived as egoistic vanities, fear and paranoia are often present.

I have found that often persons who have a penchant for extolling the virtues of the highly improbable have had at some stage in their lives a significant life altering "true" experience(s) that they then spend the rest of their lives attempting to justify.

To constantly attempt to validate the suffering and obsession that manifests by seeking consensus from others who can not actually, ever rationally agree, due to the impossibility of evidencing their experience properly.

I, personally have had many experiences of this kind, and have had to reconcile to the fact that to expect others to simply agree to their reality is an even greater exercise in futility because that agreement is just another form of self deception.

 

[James R]

I hereby concede the vast improbability of elephants skydiving from a plane.

But you think a wormhole suddenly appearing, swallowing a car, and then disappearing leaving no trace is not such a vast improbability? Quite commonplace, really. You would have us believe that such a thing has occurred at least twice in the past year, and you suggest that it actually happens a lot more than that.

Your estimation of probabilities leaves a lot to be desired.

 

[Magical Realist]

I, personally have had many experiences of this kind, and have had to reconcile to the fact that to expect others to simply agree to their reality is an even greater exercise in futility because that agreement is just another form of self deception.

Alas, my own experiences with the extraordinary remain limited to synchronicities of an almost expected routine frequency. I DID have a confirmation from mom when she died that she was still conscious and alive in some sense. We had agreed on this before she passed, and sure enough she came through. I'd love to have an experience with a ghost, a ufo, bigfoot, or a vanishing car, but to be honest I don't think I'd handle it very well. Such serendipitous manifestations are best reserved for the more down to earth. Maybe one day when I'm ready. Who knows..

 

[James R]

Oh, and another thing...

Magical Realist

Whew! Another rambling attempt to deny something you simply have no basis for denying.

There was nothing rambling about my last series of posts to you (which would have been one post but for the 10000 character limit that is in place for some reason). Since you don't have an adequate response, you write a short dismissive post. But readers can read my posts and decide for themselves.

Look, I think I was pretty clear in my OP. It could be a hoax. True. Cars disappearing on video appears to be new phenomena. True. And in the OFF chance it's real, then it bears looking at the video. True. Everything after that has been show of you trying to deny that such a thing could ever occur.

Why didn't you take the same approach to the skydiving elephants? You jumped quickly to denying that one. Why?

First you cited the laws of physics as the reason. Then when I pressed you on that, you gave up and went into some strawman rant against the supernatural, which is something I didn't even evoke as an explanation.

You apparently can't distinguish the natural from the supernatural. I merely tried to explain the difference to you.

Frustrated, you then you attack me personally as lazy and complacent simply because I don't accept your claim that a car can't possibly vanish.

No. I said you were lazy and complacent because you accept at face value so much of what is presented to you without thinking or checking out the basic facts.

That's when I cited a source proving the possibility of wormholes. Then we go into Nazi interrogation mode: what are the mathematical probabilities here? How does a wormhole happen? Why didn't I call the source of the video and confirm it for you? The burden is on YOU MR! Blah blah blah.

At one point you were arguing that it was up to me to prove that a wormhole couldn't swallow a car. I'm glad we cleared that up by discussing the burden of proof. You introduced Hume, remember. In future, try to bear in mind Hume's useful advice about miracles.

Finally we arrive at a self-righteous touting of your own scientific prowess, your ability to predict statements, the power of science to determine everything with exact certainty, complaints about posting videos of unexplained events in the exact subforum made for it, and a half-hearted committal to actually view 10 minutes of a video showing evidence of UFOs.

What an interesting take on our discussion. I have not asked to accept anything on the basis of my scientific prowess. I have not set myself up as an authority. In fact, the main thing I have done is to urge you to think for yourself and not be so gullible.

Similarly, I made no claim about science being able to determine everything, let alone with exact certainty. Nor did I complain about your posting of the video, though I commented that you gave us nothing to discuss.

Also, there was no half-hearted committal. I said I'll take a look at part of your video and I will. That's in spite of the fact that I expect it to be a run-of-the-mill sensationalist and credulous treatment of the topic with no truly skeptical voices in it presenting the other view.

I'll await your objective opinion on the matter, but I won't hold my breath. You hold onto your view of reality based on what has and has not been published in peer reviewed journals, and I'll continue believing in my magical universe that I see around me everyday. There really doesn't seem to any more point in discussing this matter.

Indeed.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Alas, my own experiences with the extraordinary remain limited to synchronicities of an almost expected routine frequency. I DID have a confirmation from mom when she died that she was still conscious and alive in some sense. We had agreed on this before she passed, and sure enough she came through. I'd love to have an experience with a ghost, a ufo, bigfoot, or a vanishing car, but to be honest I don't think I'd handle it very well. Such serendipitous manifestations are best reserved for the more down to earth. Maybe one day when I'm ready. Who knows..

An acute "Synchronistic Awareness" can be devastating to normal societal function. I recall writing a couple of articles on the subject years ago and will post them to you if I can dig them up.

Clearly self identifying the difference between empirical and circumstantial evidence helps as does understanding the fear associated with the ramifications.

 

[Enmos]

Lazy photoshopping...

 

[Enmos]

Why didn't you take the same approach to the skydiving elephants? You jumped quickly to denying that one. Why?

Because he's a troll.

 

[James R]

Magical Realist:

I took a look at the video you linked me to, above. I've started a new thread to discuss what I found. It's here:

http://sciforums.com/threads/the-phoenix-lights-aliens-hoax-or-mistaken-identity.143208/

Let's just say that what I watched of the video didn't convince me that the aliens are here.