Thread: Man Beheads Wife in 'Honor' Killing

  1. #301
    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    Like I said pick up any book on the subject.
    Of course. If your side does it, it's ok because it's traditional and cultural. But the other side does the exact same thing and it's evil and bad.

    I have read many many books on the subject and every single one of them has one resounding message. Owning another human being is probably one of the worst of the worst when it comes to acts that are, by their very nature, immoral. You can have them serve in the military and attain high military honour, but those individuals were never free. Nor were the men, women and children who were captured in raids and shipped back to the ME to be slaves. Lopping off a slave's gonads and forcing women into sexual slavery is not better than what the slaves had to suffer in other parts of the world. Just because some were put into military service does not take away from the very simple fact that they would not have gone into said military service if they were not slaves and saw it as a way out of servitude to their masters... Those who were put to work in the salt mines in the Sahara for example, barely lived past 5 years in captivity due to the horrendous work they were forced to do, vastly different to those who worked in the domestic market. The same applies to those who were put to work in the plantations... Just like house slaves in the US were treated better than those put to work in the fields..

    Slavery is slavery, no matter how much you try to pretty it up by saying that they blended in with the natives more in the ME. It cannot be condoned or excused away.

    Gitmo is a completely different animal and subject.

  2. #302
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Gitmo is a completely different animal and subject.
    Because POWs are different when under Islam and under the West?

  3. #303
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DiamondHearts View Post
    So far no one on this thread has been able to provide any source which allows slavery in Islam.
    How about the Quran as a source?

    * 4:36 "(Show) kindness unto parents, and unto near kindred, and orphans, and the needy, and unto the neighbour who is of kin (unto you) and the neighbour who is not of kin, and the fellow-traveller and the wayfarer and (the slaves) whom your right hands possess."

    * 4:92 "It is not for a believer to kill a believer unless (it be) by mistake. He who hath killed a believer by mistake must set free a believing slave, and pay the blood- money to the family of the slain, unless they remit it as a charity. If he (the victim) be of a people hostile unto you, and he is a believer, then (the penance is) to set free a believing slave."

    * 23:5-6 "And who guard their modesty - Save from their wives or the (slaves) that their right hands possess."

    * 24:31 "And tell the believing women to lower their gaze and be modest, and to display of their adornment only that which is apparent, and to draw their veils over their bosoms, and not to reveal their adornment save to their own husbands or fathers or husbands' fathers, or their sons or their husbands' sons, or their brothers or their brothers' sons or sisters' sons, or their women, or their slaves."

    * 24:58 "O ye who believe! Let your slaves, and those of you who have not come to puberty, ask leave of you at three times (before they come into your presence)."

    * 33:25-26 "Allah repulsed the disbelievers in their wrath; they gained no good. Allah averted their attack from the believers. Allah is ever Strong, Mighty. And He brought those of the People of the Scripture who supported them down from their strongholds, and cast panic into their hearts. Some ye slew, and ye made captive some.

    * 33:50 "O Prophet! Lo! We have made lawful unto thee thy wives unto whom thou hast paid their dowries, and those whom thy right hand possesseth of those whom Allah hath given thee as spoils of war."

    * 33:55 "It is no sin for them (thy wives) to converse freely) with their fathers, or their sons, or their brothers, or their brothers' sons, or the sons of their sisters or of their own women, or their slaves."

  4. #304
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    It shows that servants should be treated well. ie employees.

    You have a problem with that?

    Some of the translations are downright sloppy

    e.g.

    [33:50] O prophet, we made lawful for you your wives to whom you have paid their due dowry, or what you already have, as granted to you by God. Also lawful for you in marriage are the daughters of your father's brothers, the daughters of your father's sisters, the daughters of your mother's brothers, the daughters of your mother's sisters, who have emigrated with you. Also, if a believing woman gave herself to the prophet - by forfeiting the dowry - the prophet may marry her without a dowry, if he so wishes. However, her forfeiting of the dowry applies only to the prophet, and not to the other believers. We have already decreed their rights in regard to their spouses or what they already have. This is to spare you any embarrassment. God is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

  5. #305
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    It shows that servants should be treated well. ie employees.
    Since when did the word "slaves" become "servants/employees"?

    You are able to read the word "slaves" are you not?

  6. #306
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    yeah like Abd-ullah, Abd-ul Gaffar, Abd-ul Hamid, Abd-ul Qadir. etc.

    Abd = servant of, one of the most common prefixes in Muslim names.

  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post

    Some of the translations are downright sloppy
    Another excuse for your lies?

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    yeah like Abd-ullah, Abd-ul Gaffar, Abd-ul Hamid, Abd-ul Qadir. etc.

    Abd = servant of, one of the most common prefixes in Muslim names.
    So, you'll stoop to the lowest levels of lying?

  9. #309
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    Another excuse for your lies?
    You can gauge the difference yourself, if you care to. Its as simple as opening a Quran and getting a dictionary. Why do you always post part of a verse? Where exactly are you getting these "translations"?

    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    So, you'll stoop to the lowest levels of lying?
    Easy enough to check, aint it?

    Abdul (also transliterated Abdel, `Abd al-, and other ways) means "servant of the", and is the first part of many Arabic names. It is combined with one of the 99 Names of God in the Qur'an to form a two-word Arabic theophoric name. The most common of these are Abdul Aziz (Servant of the Almighty), Abdul Rahman (Servant of the Benevolent), and Abdul Rahim (Servant of the Merciful).
    http://dictionary.babylon.com/Abdul

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    You can gauge the difference yourself, if you care to. Its as simple as opening a Quran and getting a dictionary. Why do you always post part of a verse? Where exactly are you getting these "translations"?
    Quick, find any excuse at all to deflect from getting caught lying!!!

  11. #311
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    Quick, find any excuse at all to deflect from getting caught lying!!!
    Is that what you're doing?

  12. #312
    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post

    I always thought it was from the Greeks who enslaved the Slavic population?
    The Muslims did also..

    I would suggest you try and get a copy of "Race and Slavery in the Middle East" by Bernard Lewis, who gives very detailed findings of research into slavery and its history and origins, especially in the Middle East.

    The medieval Iberian Peninsula was the scene of almost constant warfare between Muslims and Christians. Periodic raiding expeditions were sent from Al-Andalus to ravage the Christian Iberian kingdoms, bringing back booty and slaves. In raid against Lisbon in 1189, for example, the Almohad caliph Yaqub al-Mansur took 3,000 female and child captives, while his governor of Córdoba, in a subsequent attack upon Silves in 1191, took 3,000 Christian slaves.

    -------------------------------------------------------------

    Slavery was an important part of Ottoman society. The Byzantine-Ottoman wars and the Ottoman wars in Europe brought large numbers of Christian slaves into the Ottoman Empire.[29] In the middle of the 14th century, Murad I built his own personal slave army called the Kapıkulu. The new force was based on the sultan's right to a fifth of the war booty, which he interpreted to include captives taken in battle. The captive slaves were converted to Islam and trained in the sultan's personal service. In the devşirme (translated "blood tax" or "child collection"), young Christian boys from the Balkans were taken away from their homes and families, converted to Islam and enlisted into special soldier classes of the Ottoman army. These soldier classes were named Janissaries, the most famous branch of the Kapıkulu. The Janissaries eventually became a decisive factor in the Ottoman military conquests in Europe.[30] Most of the military commanders of the Ottoman forces, imperial administrators and de facto rulers of the Ottoman Empire, such as Pargalı İbrahim Pasha and Sokollu Mehmet Paşa, were recruited in this way.[31][32] By 1609 the Sultan's Kapıkulu forces increased to about 100,000.[33]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery..._Muslim_Iberia
    They were quite far reaching.

  13. #313
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Bernard Lewis the Zionist? Who changed his stance on history over Israel?

    The core of Lewis's ideology about Islam is that it never changes, and his whole mission is to inform conservative segments of the Jewish reading public, and anyone else who cares to listen, that any political, historical, and scholarly account of Muslims must begin and end with the fact that Muslims are Muslims.
    http://www.counterpunch.org/alam06282003.html

    Lewis is a widely-read expert on the Middle East, and is regarded as one of the West’s leading scholars of that region.[1] His advice has been frequently sought by policymakers, including the former Bush administration
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lewis

    Lewis is known for his literary sparrings with Edward W. Said, the Arab literary theorist and activist whose aim was to deconstruct Orientalist scholarship. Said, a professor at Columbia University, defined Lewis's work as a prime example of Orientalism in his 1978 book Orientalism. Said asserted that the field of Orientalism was political intellectualism bent on self-affirmation rather than objective study,[26] a form of racism, and a tool of imperialist domination.[27] He further questioned the scientific neutrality of some leading Orientalist scholars such as Bernard Lewis on the Arab world. In an interview with Al-Ahram Weekly, Said suggested that Lewis' knowledge of the Middle East was so biased it could not be taken seriously, and claimed "Bernard Lewis hasn't set foot in the Middle East, in the Arab world, for at least 40 years. He knows something about Turkey, I'm told, but he knows nothing about the Arab world." [28]

    Edward Said considered that Lewis treats Islam as a monolithic entity without the nuance of its plurality, internal dynamics, and historical complexities, and accused him of "demagogy and downright ignorance."

  14. #314
    Encephaloid Martini (Q)'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    Is that what you're doing?
    "However, since if a non-Muslim population refuses to adopt Islam or pay the Jizya protection/subjugation tax, that population is considered to be at war with the Muslim "ummah" and therefore it becomes legal under Islamic law to take slaves from that non-Muslim population."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    "However, since if a non-Muslim population refuses to adopt Islam or pay the Jizya protection/subjugation tax, that population is considered to be at war with the Muslim "ummah" and therefore it becomes legal under Islamic law to take slaves from that non-Muslim population."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade
    Oh look, more ridiculous statements.

    Lets change that to: However, if a Muslim subject refuses to follow the laws of the country he is residing in and does not pay tax, he goes to prison and works for 50 cents an hour doing prison work. This is legal under the country's laws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    oooh the horrors

  16. #316
    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    Bernard Lewis the Zionist? Who changed his stance on history over Israel?



    http://www.counterpunch.org/alam06282003.html



    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernard_Lewis
    You're saying he is wrong about the Muslim slave trade?

    He might be a zionist, but what he has written about the slave trade in the Islamic empire of the past and somewhat of the present is fairly accurate. He is more flattering than most are towards slavery in Islam.

  17. #317
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bells View Post
    You're saying he is wrong about the Muslim slave trade?

    He might be a zionist, but what he has written about the slave trade in the Islamic empire of the past and somewhat of the present is fairly accurate. He is more flattering than most are towards slavery in Islam.
    Oh please, his area of expertise is Ottoman history. Thats all.

    How do you gauge his "accuracy"?

    The Muslims did also..
    Missed this. The Muslims went to Slavic lands and captured Europeans?

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by S.A.M. View Post
    Oh look, more ridiculous statements.

    Lets change that to: However, if a Muslim subject refuses to follow the laws of the country he is residing in and does not pay tax, he goes to prison and works for 50 cents an hour doing prison work. This is legal under the country's laws!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
    Sam believes slavery is the same as being gainfully employed and that if you don't want to be a Muslim, you can be an "employee."

    Of course, only if she is the "employer."

  19. #319
    uniquely dreadful S.A.M.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Q) View Post
    Sam believes slavery is the same as being gainfully employed and that if you don't want to be a Muslim, you can be an "employee."

    Of course, only if she is the "employer."
    No abd means "servant of". Which begs the question. Why is the word translated as slaves in your translations?

  20. #320
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abd_(Arabic)

    If one is forced to be someone's servant what would you call it, other then slavery ?

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