Poll: Guns

Thread: How do you feel about guns?

  1. #721
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Myers View Post
    Your are right, they cannot be everywhere. Can you imagine that guns were never invented (Hypothetically) and how this would change the face of our planet? Just a wild thought.
    Genghis Khan and his hordes didn't have too much problem killing people by the thousands, did they?

    In the early days of the Muslim Empire, millions of people were killed. Then during the Crusades, more millions of people were killed.

    Guns just made killing people more efficient and from a more distant range. But lest you forget, the swords and lances didn't kill all those people, the men weilding those weapons did ....just like the guns of today.

    Killing is something that's been going on since the first man stood upright on the African plains ...and it ain't likely to stop any time soon.

    Baron Max

  2. #722
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    Quote Originally Posted by phlogistician View Post
    Criminals wouldn't be able to buy guns if each gun were accounted for, and logged against an owner. It would take time to achieve, but that is not an excuse for doing nothing. Eventually, good law abiding citizens would register, and illegal ammunition would run out, and the only way to buy more would be to pass a background check, and get a license. Might take a few decades, but that's no reason not to try.
    There is plenty of reason not to try it. First of al many illegal guns are ones that were ins official hands at one point or another or smuggled in. We can't stop these guns, ever. Hell, we can't do it with drugs. As for ammo any decent chemist can make smokeless powder and all you need after that is bullet molds, brass tumbler, crimper, and lead. It's too easy to reload ammunition.

    No, the best gun control is to allow all small arms to the public. You can do licensing, but it should be free and you license should only be subject to suspension based on your actions with your firearms.

  3. #723
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiassa View Post
    Wow. Did you come up with that stereotype all by yourself?

    Sorry. Couldn't resist.

    But in the interest of enlightenment, perhaps you could answer a question for me:

    Why won't "typical Gun owners" represent themselves more honestly?

    For instance, if you're "typical", and have only fired your weapon a few times outside a range, and those were for deer, deer, and bear ... why do "typical Gun owners" have such a fascination with the crime and drama campaign that casts them as creepy and frightened? Why waste your time building an image so incompatible with civilized society and then complaining when people call you out on it? It sounds to me like bears are the problem.
    I said I fired it 3 times, and drew it five total, I did show it several dozen times to deter a crime. So, don't let my total number of rounds fool you.

    Everybody likes to think of themselves as typical, Mr. Scott. At least, under certain circumstances. Would I like to be a typical liberal? If only I could. But neither typical liberals nor I are willing to bend enough to make that wish true. Some other folks who think of themselves as typical: the one who joined a posse and got drunk in response to an escape from a minimum security prison; the one who went shooting in a field somewhere drunk, unable to recall the location or the safety measures taken; the one who drank so she wouldn't shoot me; the one who transported concealed weapons across two state lines to arm the one who drank so she wouldn't shoot me; the one who left his loaded rifle for his five year-old to find and use against a younger, disobedient sibling; the one in the hilarious deer-chasing story; the one who pointed a loaded pistol at me while believing it unloaded (nearly a funny story, complete with ironic timing) ....
    Seems to me that your stories grow with time, of course I can't help but notice that none of the people who joked about shooting you have. But then again these are probably just embellished stories of yours. They might not be, but for all but one of them, no harm was done and no crime committed. So in effect you are bitching over nothing.

    My point is that the typical or benevolent we imagine about our own representations includes great diversity. Just as my own liberal politics disdain the general derogatory meaning of the word "liberal" as put forward by American conservatives, so, too, must gun owners come to grips with the fact that there are as many "typical" examples of their ilk as the ilk themselves.
    I have yet to meet a hardcore liberal who would make it in the real world if they didn't have people like me protecting them. They are useless philosophers that concentrate too much on the theoretical and not enough on the real world. Same is true of hard core conservatives as well. Though 90% are moderate to some degree, with varying levels of usefulness. And the more moderate they are the less likely they are to strip a tangible right to supply an intangible one.

  4. #724
    Plutarch (Mickey's Dog)
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    I would have to, as before, agree with T.W. Scott. Guns do make people safer and restricting them does little to prevent crime or illicit gun purchasers.

  5. #725
    Let us not launch the boat ... Tiassa's Avatar
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    Cool Holy Stoners, Batman!

    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott

    I said I fired it 3 times, and drew it five total, I did show it several dozen times to deter a crime. So, don't let my total number of rounds fool you.
    Several dozen times? Several dozen times?! Wow. I mean, I've been involved with the drug subculture and, for several years, the flesh culture. And ... let's see ... wow. Wherever it is you call home, I must admit, seems a violent place. I mean, I've run with two very dangerous subcultures, and yet the only times I've felt my safety in risk, frankly ... well, by experience, the gun culture is far more dangerous to me than either the drug or sex economies. The war on drugs? Crimes of vice? All those nasty stories about dangerous pimps and drug dealers? I've known for years those stories were exaggerated, but I never realized how much safer it is among those folks than out in civil society. Maybe instead of carrying a gun you should just smoke pot and hang out with strippers and whores. Not that I would force you to, but it would seem the lifestyle has worked for me.

    Really, I thought the drug and sex subcultures would have been more dangerous an environment for my daughter than vice aversion. Great. Thanks. Now I get to reconsider that whole parental theory.

    Seems to me that your stories grow with time, of course I can't help but notice that none of the people who joked about shooting you have. But then again these are probably just embellished stories of yours.
    Sometimes I try the strategy of laying out the most obvious and demonstrative examples. Sometimes I'm accused of exaggeration. But as the method struggles, it's worth it to try the inundation approach. Quite obviously, though, there comes a point where nothing affects a hardened cynic.

    but for all but one of them, no harm was done and no crime committed. So in effect you are bitching over nothing.
    Ah, no blood no foul. Is that what it means to be a "responsible gun owner"?

    I have yet to meet a hardcore liberal who would make it in the real world if they didn't have people like me protecting them.
    How do you protect them? Did you ship out to Panama to stop us from our federally-paid cocaine dealer? Or Grenada? Did you go to Iraq the first or second time? Frankly, for those latter, I'm not sure you ended up protecting anyone. But at least you tried.

    Or do you mean by carrying your gun and flashing your gun several dozen times?

    People like you protecting them? That might explain something about the War on Terror, but what exactly do you mean?

    They are useless philosophers that concentrate too much on the theoretical and not enough on the real world.
    Interesting way of looking at it.

    The more moderation anyone shows, Mr. Scott, the less likely we'll need to live in such fear as, say, hardcore conservatives would have.

    Seriously, though, what kind of community have you helped build that is so much more dangerous than the frigging black market?

    Really?

    Seriously?

    Several dozen times? I'll just be hanging out with the kingpins, mules, and street dealers, I guess.

    Zero, Great Scott! Literally zero. As in, "the number of times a weapon would have served my security or sense thereof".

    I used to think it absurd to hear a coke dealer talk about defending Americans in Panama. He went after Noriega only to become a coke dealer in his own life. The irony seemed rather hilarious. Now I realize I do owe the Panama contingent thanks. In a world where drugs often have a Miami Vice stain about them, holy crap! Turns out maybe the Panama mission did make America safer, at least for the drug users.

    Of course, once the paranoid zealots figure it out and flee to the Users' Quarter, well, there goes the neighborhood.

    Maybe we ought to start a Sciforums' Relocation Assistance Program, to help people in crime-ridden neighborhoods move out. After all, since the police can't control it, since community efforts to improve literacy and opportunity can't help, since people are left brandishing weapons because that's the only thing left to maintain any sense of order, we ought to at least offer hope to the refugees.

    I'm going to have to start a topic on this: When did the black market become safer than the open streets?

  6. #726
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiassa View Post
    Several dozen times? Several dozen times?! Wow. I mean, I've been involved with the drug subculture and, for several years, the flesh culture. And ... let's see ... wow. Wherever it is you call home, I must admit, seems a violent place. I mean, I've run with two very dangerous subcultures, and yet the only times I've felt my safety in risk, frankly ... well, by experience, the gun culture is far more dangerous to me than either the drug or sex economies. The war on drugs? Crimes of vice? All those nasty stories about dangerous pimps and drug dealers? I've known for years those stories were exaggerated, but I never realized how much safer it is among those folks than out in civil society. Maybe instead of carrying a gun you should just smoke pot and hang out with strippers and whores. Not that I would force you to, but it would seem the lifestyle has worked for me.

    Really, I thought the drug and sex subcultures would have been more dangerous an environment for my daughter than vice aversion. Great. Thanks. Now I get to reconsider that whole parental theory.
    Great there you go acting without thinking. I have carried for 14 years and several dozen has worked to 3 or four a year average. Though my two hour stay in Gary Indiana back in 97 counts for 9 flashings of my weapon. Not from people who were just looking at me, but guys who were asking where I kept my money among other things.

    Sometimes I try the strategy of laying out the most obvious and demonstrative examples. Sometimes I'm accused of exaggeration. But as the method struggles, it's worth it to try the inundation approach. Quite obviously, though, there comes a point where nothing affects a hardened cynic.
    Yes, and doing what you are you are making the claim that every gun-owner is like that. You take the cases of irresponsible gun owners and impy that we all act like that.

    How do you protect them? Did you ship out to Panama to stop us from our federally-paid cocaine dealer? Or Grenada? Did you go to Iraq the first or second time? Frankly, for those latter, I'm not sure you ended up protecting anyone.

    But at least you tried.Or do you mean by carrying your gun and flashing your gun several dozen times?

    People like you protecting them? That might explain something about the War on Terror, but what exactly do you mean?
    I have assisted in fifteen spouse abuse rescue operation. You know the ones where a couple burly guys come in help the abused escape their abusives spouses. I have been a guard and counseler at three different womens's shelter. I have broken up several roberies, muggings, rapes, and beatings. I was part of a citizen watch group. I gave tips that led to the arrest of 2 drugdealers. What positive affect have you had?

    Interesting way of looking at it.
    Yeah, I like to call it realism.

    The more moderation anyone shows, Mr. Scott, the less likely we'll need to live in such fear as, say, hardcore conservatives would have.
    I don't live in fear. I know that no matter the situation or it's need I am covered.

    What i find interesting is that you thing gun-owners live in fear. You see to me, that affirms my belief the it is you who is afraid. I mean it is you who wishes to disarm us. Why would you need to do that if you were not frightened? Why ban the tool and not the behavior.

    Seriously, though, what kind of community have you helped build that is so much more dangerous than the frigging black market?

    Really?

    Seriously?

    Several dozen times? I'll just be hanging out with the kingpins, mules, and street dealers, I guess.

    Zero, Great Scott! Literally zero. As in, "the number of times a weapon would have served my security or sense thereof".

    I used to think it absurd to hear a coke dealer talk about defending Americans in Panama. He went after Noriega only to become a coke dealer in his own life. The irony seemed rather hilarious. Now I realize I do owe the Panama contingent thanks. In a world where drugs often have a Miami Vice stain about them, holy crap! Turns out maybe the Panama mission did make America safer, at least for the drug users.

    Of course, once the paranoid zealots figure it out and flee to the Users' Quarter, well, there goes the neighborhood.

    Maybe we ought to start a Sciforums' Relocation Assistance Program, to help people in crime-ridden neighborhoods move out. After all, since the police can't control it, since community efforts to improve literacy and opportunity can't help, since people are left brandishing weapons because that's the only thing left to maintain any sense of order, we ought to at least offer hope to the refugees.

    I'm going to have to start a topic on this: When did the black market become safer than the open streets?

  7. #727
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiassa View Post
    I mean, I've been involved with the drug subculture and, for several years, the flesh culture. And ... , and yet the only times I've felt my safety in risk,...
    It only takes one time! And ya' know what they say ..."There's always a first time."

    But, see, when it happens to you, you won't be prepared. While TWScott and I will be prepared. How can you see it otherwise? You're just gambling with your life(and the life of your daughter, too?), ...and since nothing has happened so far, you're using that to convince yourself that it never will happen. Ahh, but there's always a first time, right?

    Quote Originally Posted by tiassa View Post
    ...frankly ... well, by experience, the gun culture is far more dangerous to me than either the drug or sex economies.
    Gun culture?? What the fuck is that? Please explain.

    I also think that it's interesting that you could defend the drug and sex industries even while any and all statistics about violence show that those areas of society are far and away more violent than the usual, regular areas of society.

    I still can't grasp it, however ....if you don't want to carry a gun, that's fine. But why are you so against others carrying a legal weapon for their own protection (even if it's only in their own minds)?

    Isn't it the same as carrying insurance on your car? No one drives off in their car with the intention of having a wreck, do they? No, of course not ....yet we carry insurance against that possibility, right? Well, carrying a gun is the same ...yet you don't want me to have that insurance ...why???

    Baron Max

  8. #728
    Quote Originally Posted by Prince_James View Post
    phlogistician:

    You fail to consider the fact that America is filled with a great deal of violent minorities that commit the majority of our crimes, both violent and non. England, faced with a relatively homogenous culture (although this is changing) does not have such a stress.
    I call BS here. I live in a very multicultural city, and being white only just puts me in the majority position. Crime here is lower than most cities. We have predominantly Asian settlers, but also a fair proportion of Africans, Somalians, and more recently East Europeans, lately lots of Polish immigrants.

    But 'culture' isn't determined by minorities. By far the largest segments of both populations is White. Blacks feature more highly in crime stats on both sides of the pond. OK, you have a higher percentage in your population, but that doesn't account for the difference in Homicide rates. Our percentages of Asian people are about even.

    What accounts for your homicide rates, is the ease which people can buy and dispose of firearms, period. That 2nd hand sales, and gun fairs are unregulated. That ammunition can be bought by anybody.

  9. #729
    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    Great there you go acting without thinking. I have carried for 14 years and several dozen has worked to 3 or four a year average. Though my two hour stay in Gary Indiana back in 97 counts for 9 flashings of my weapon. Not from people who were just looking at me, but guys who were asking where I kept my money among other things.
    Jesus, when I was confronted by a large Rastafarian with a machete asking me how much dope I wanted to buy (this was the robber's M.O. he forced people to buy dope at extortionate prices, expecting them to not dare tell the Police.) I just replied 'I just spent all of my money in the pub, but I can meet you here tomorrow, same time, and bring money'. Fearing a trap, he let it slide. I just needed wit, not a rod. OK, a few times wit hasn't worked, and I let my knuckles take over, but in the 20years I've lived in large cities, sometimes in low rent areas, I can count these incidents on one hand.

    I think you are guilty of escalating these conflicts by showing your gun, just because you can. You sound like the typical, fearful gun stroker. I feel sad that you think so little of yourself that you feel you need to show a gun, and cannot impose upon someone enough to deter them. Do you think that someone without a gun, in the exact same situations as you, would have been mugged every time? Were you a good citizen, and did you report these crimes to the cops, so the bad guys could be arrested? Or did you let it slip, because actually, you weren't certain they were trying to rob you, and didn't want to throw accusations around?

  10. #730

    The Rasta who tried to rob you ...

    In reply to your story about the Rasta who wanted to force feed you weed, In this case and trust me, I have been to several Carib islands and seen some scary shit, and even almost got robbed my like 10 punks in Barcelona Spain (I was surrounded by them at 5AM! in a dark street, laneway steps from my room / hotel) ... in this case I agree with the invention of guns, don;t take me wrong, they definitely have their place in this CRAZY FUCKIN world. Damn, I would not have hesitated to blow this shitheads head off in a millisecond rather than being hacked or mamed for $50USD.

    Long live Dirty Hairy.
    Last edited by Dave Myers; 10-28-06 at 04:24 PM.

  11. #731
    Let us not launch the boat ... Tiassa's Avatar
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    Cool Subtlety is not your best tool, Mr. Scott

    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott

    Great there you go acting without thinking. I have carried for 14 years and several dozen has worked to 3 or four a year average. Though my two hour stay in Gary Indiana back in 97 counts for 9 flashings of my weapon. Not from people who were just looking at me, but guys who were asking where I kept my money among other things.
    And compared to my fifteen-plus years with the black-market (and the dangerous open streets), that still equals three or four times a year, average, more than I have needed to show my machismo. Of course, I’ve seriously underestimated “middle America” if Gary is so scary. Wild. I’m sure there’s something more to that story than you’re telling me. Last time someone asked me where I kept my money, I just said, “A bank,” and looked at him like it was a stupid question. It never occurred to me for a moment that I might need a gun. So obviously, my experience with someone asking where I keep my money is considerably different from yours. Maybe it’s because I hang out in those weakened, liberal areas like Seattle, where you don’t need to flash a gun nine times in two hours. In fact, people would think there was something wrong with you if you flashed a gun nine times in two hours. Even in the so-called seedy districts.

    Help me out here, Mr. Scott: what in the world was so scary about these people that threatening them with lethal force was your only reasonable option?

    I’ve been in bad neighborhoods before, and at no time would flashing a gun have helped me. In fact, there are times in Tacoma when it would have gotten me more attention than a “careful” gun-toter would want.

    Yes, and doing what you are you are making the claim that every gun-owner is like that. You take the cases of irresponsible gun owners and impy that we all act like that.
    Consider a parallel: A (Protestant) preacher is accused of indecent liberties at Disneyworld. Christians of all stripes write to the local newspaper to blast the story: how dare a respectable journalistic outlet take part in rumormongering! It comes out that the story was true. The Christians are up in a rabble again: How dare a respectable journalistic outlet invade a good man’s privacy. There arises documented evidence that local law enforcement in Florida appears to have helped cover up the crime. The Christians lose their tempers again: Now, they say, the newspaper is being vengeful and just looking for hurtful things to say. People were so caught up in the “oppressed Christian” role that they didn’t really seem to stop and think about it: A grown man exposes himself to and propositions a young boy in a bathroom at Disneyworld, law enforcement participates in a conspiracy to bury the crime, and it’s somehow vengeful to make the public aware of a pedophile in a trusted position? No, not all Christians so vocally endorse pedophilia, but none of the voices of outrage ever said, “Whoops. Well, we were wrong. The pastor is in trouble and something needs to be done.”

    Consider the gun lobby: A guy shoots a college student through a closed door when the student is only trying to ask him directions. The man did not say, “Stop!” He did not make it apparent that he had a gun trained on the guy. He yelled “Freeze!” and immediately started shooting. In Texas, that’s enough to clear you of any crime. Gun owners across the country wrote articles and letters to editors praising the man, blasting “liberals” for finding anything amiss about the situation. In Oregon, a man leaves his five year-old in charge of a three year-old while he and his wife go out somewhere. The younger disobeys her elder, so the boy gets the loaded rifle out from under Daddy’s bed and shoots her in the face. The prosecutor publicly admits when he refuses to prosecute that the public outcry against prosecuting the parents for some form of negligence is too great. Now, here we have essentially two (or three, to count the couple individually) gun owners. Hardly a representative sample. But what, then, of the many who voice support for the situation? What of the time the feds came in on a raid, with warrant, against a suspected arms trafficker? The guy pulled a gun and was shot to death. Gun owners across the country, still freshly outraged over Waco, argue on behalf of the weapons trafficker. Charlton Heston tells a national audience on Bill Maher’s former ABC-network show that we need guns to protect us against home invasion; gun owners across the country support the NRA, and yet if a “liberal” were to posit a theory that involved jack-booted thugs in uniforms blindly following orders and mowing down their American neighbors, such rhetoric would be considered foolish, dangerous, and even traitorous, but certainly not heroic.

    What are we supposed to believe? We hear rhetoric about law-abiding gun owners, but so many of the weapons used in crimes come from allegedly law-abiding gun owners. We hear about the threat of crime, but it makes little sense: there must be something you’re not telling us, because we’re not perceiving the sense of threat. Responsible gun owners? I know people who would consider themselves responsible gun owners who would take you to task for flashing your weapon so many times without using it. What standard prevails? It’s all nice political terminology, but it has no meaning. Why represent yourself so poorly and then recoil at people’s perception?

    Is it just easier to demonize the people you disagree with if you intentionally misrepresent yourself?

    I have assisted in fifteen spouse abuse rescue operation. You know the ones where a couple burly guys come in help the abused escape their abusives spouses. I have been a guard and counseler at three different womens's shelter. I have broken up several roberies, muggings, rapes, and beatings. I was part of a citizen watch group. I gave tips that led to the arrest of 2 drugdealers. What positive affect have you had?
    Suicide response and prevention, intervention in domestic and street violence, &c. But I haven’t ever needed a gun for any of it. Of course, I don’t have the vigilante attitude. There’s a difference, Mr. Scott, between handling trouble when it comes up, and going out looking for it. At least, on the occasions that I’ve perceived a situation wrongly, I didn’t threaten anyone’s life with a gun for my mistake.

  12. #732

    Thumbs up Guns and Ammo.

    There has been some great discussion here, and I agree that guns do benefit humankind too.

  13. #733
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiassa View Post
    Suicide response and prevention, intervention in domestic and street violence, &c. But I haven’t ever needed a gun for any of it.
    Tell me, Tiassa, do you carry insurance on your car? Most people do, but not because they're intentionally taking the car out to crash it. If they don't intend to crash their car, then why would they need insurance?

    Baron Max

  14. #734

    Lightbulb Great example...

    And the simple reply here is because "shit happens". We do not have control over the actions or inactions of others.

  15. #735
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dave Myers View Post
    And the simple reply here is because "shit happens". We do not have control over the actions or inactions of others.
    Agreed. Tiassa has been gambling with his life, as we all have. But he's taken it so far as to think "If it's not happened by this time, then it will never happen to me, and more importantly, it will never happen to anyone else!"

    That sure ain't the way I view things! I gamble enough with my life just to get out of the house, I don't need to add to that gamble any more than necessary.

    Baron Max

  16. #736
    Let us not launch the boat ... Tiassa's Avatar
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    Cool Attempting to play to the audience

    Quote Originally Posted by Baron Max

    It only takes one time! And ya' know what they say ..."There's always a first time."

    But, see, when it happens to you, you won't be prepared. While TWScott and I will be prepared. How can you see it otherwise? You're just gambling with your life(and the life of your daughter, too?), ...and since nothing has happened so far, you're using that to convince yourself that it never will happen. Ahh, but there's always a first time, right?
    A Note to Mr. Scott: See, this is another example of what I mean when I refer to representation. Baron Max would suggest I carry a gun for fear of what might happen. Given that the statistical odds suggest I am more likely to see that gun shoot friends or family in an accident, I don't see how raising the odds of a bad outcome is a wise decision. After all, it only takes one mistake.

    Baron Max: See above.

    Gun culture?? What the fuck is that? Please explain.
    A Note to Mr. Scott: What? He really can't figure it out?

    Baron Max: See above. Now then, consider the comparison. In a culture of the black market--e.g. drugs--oft-reviled for its mortal dangers, there is no time at which a gun would have served me well. In the culture of the T&A industry, which nobody seriously pretends is wholly separated from prostitution, and which is oft-reviled for its mortal dangers, there is no time at which a gun would have served me well. However, this is not to suggest I've never feared immediate danger. That fear responded to the actions and attitudes of "law-abiding citizens" who considered themselves "responsible gun owners". It is within that subculture a gun seems advisable. But given the rampant fear that seems to infect the gun culture, I would only be contributing to the paranoia.

    I also think that it's interesting that you could defend the drug and sex industries even while any and all statistics about violence show that those areas of society are far and away more violent than the usual, regular areas of society.
    A Note to Mr. Scott: Now this is straight after the point.

    Baron Max: It's not a matter of defending the sex and drug industries. In fact, you're reinforcing my point when you remind that, "any and all statistics about violence show that those areas of society are far and away more violent than the usual, regular areas of society."

    That's actually my point. I forget sometimes that it is not advisable to address these issues without any but the most grimly serious outlook. Because I've been involved with the drug subculture for longer than Mr. Scott claims to have carried a firearm. What the hell is he up to that makes his life so much more dangerous than mine? If I should not presume him some sort of closet scoundrel, some sleaze of the earth putting himself into dangerous situations, what does his testament mean? His open streets are more dangerous than my "dangerous" subcultures. If we presume Mr. Scott a reasonably law-abiding and responsible gun owner, what could possibly be going on? Is it the heightened fear?

    Zero.

    You know, part of it is that I consider the notion of taking life an extreme measure demanded only under extreme circumstances. It seems to me that when one carries a gun, the definition of "extreme circumstances" warranting "extreme measures" broadens exponentially. That it seems to be that way is largely the result of what gun owners and advocates tell me, and repeatedly. I would ask you to consider Phlogistician's response to Mr. Scott's claim about showing the weapon.

    Seriously: I get criticism for the notion that I seem to think gun owners flash their weapons if someone looks at them wrongly. Well, we can at least agree, then--or, rather, Mr. Scott and I can agree--that apparently someone speaking is cause to show a weapon. That's considerably less extreme than my perception of circumstances warranting such action. Of course, there are details Mr. Scott has left out, and I'm sure he'll fill them in as he sees necessary.

    Really, though.

    I still can't grasp it, however ....if you don't want to carry a gun, that's fine. But why are you so against others carrying a legal weapon for their own protection (even if it's only in their own minds)?
    I'm not against others carrying weapons. I still can't figure where you get that from. I enumerated my points of gun control many posts ago. It's not about prohibiting the legal possession of a firearm. It's asking for some measure of sanity about it.

    Isn't it the same as carrying insurance on your car? No one drives off in their car with the intention of having a wreck, do they? No, of course not ....yet we carry insurance against that possibility, right? Well, carrying a gun is the same ...yet you don't want me to have that insurance ...why???
    A Note to Mr. Scott: Really, what? I mean, really. What?! As such ....

    Baron Max: While I acknowledge Mr. Myers' "simple reply", it is worth pointing out that my insurance policy is not designed to kill another human being. If I make a claim on my insurance company, the result is not that someone is injured, maimed, or killed.

    Consider, please:

    Use a gun successfully: Someone is injured, maimed, or killed.
    Use an insurance policy successfully: My car gets fixed.

    Is that a miniscule difference to you? Insignificant? My insurance company isn't going to kill the guy who runs into my car. If I shot him, on the other hand ...?

    Okay, okay, okay. What, though, would brandishing a weapon do? After all, if he smacks into my car with an SUV, I could well consider that a threat. Right?

    A Note to Mr. Scott and all Gun Advocates: Instead of either banding together or simply ignoring one another, it would be nice to see some form of discussion between the "responsible gun owners" regarding the propriety of their individual standards. As I've noted, I know gun owners who would take people to task for showing their weapon without using it. And they, too, would dismiss other notions of what constitutes "responsible" in order to pretend that "responsible" or "law-abiding" gun owners are a fairly uniform body to be represented singly. I do know gun owners who would ask what the hell the problem is that one is flashing their gun nine times in two hours. Does this sound unreasonable? Consider how many gun advocates disdain the examples I give. In the end, the collective message represented by gun advocates is that any measurable sanity is an infringement of Constitutional rights. It doesn't seem right to me. I don't want to increase the amount of fear in my life. Frankly, I shudder at the notion of seeing the world through such morbid lenses as gun advocates paint. If it speaks something of me that I don't carry my knife anymore because it was too quickly to mind when conflict arose, and if it speaks something of me that there is considerably less appearance of conflict in my life now that I don't carry the weapon, I would ask people in general to consider the same point.

    Look at the rhetoric. I should be investigated by DSS or its equivalent for failing to strap on a gun? I'm gambling with my life by not strapping on a gun? I'm gambling with my daughter's wellbeing by not increasing the immediate danger of her environment? The "far and away more violent" subcultures I've associated with in my lifetime are somehow safer than the open streets of law-abiding society? A gun and an insurance policy do the same thing? Does any of this seem just a bit crazy?

    Guns have their place in society. So does sanity. What is this world from which the gun advocates' rhetoric springs? Where is it, please, so I can avoid going there. Sure, it may be my right to travel to the mean streets of Gary, Indiana, but I still can't think of a reason I would want to.

    Sanity doesn't seem like a whole lot to ask when lethal force is an issue. Does it?

  17. #737
    Minister of Technology
    Posts
    4,149
    Ah, forget it, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink.

    If you do not understand how a gun can be useful and at time neccesary for your own protection at times, then that is your problem. If you don't want to carry one that is your decision. If you want to live in a place where nobody carries one then move to a deserted island and live with your family there. Otherwise, speak your opinion but realize that is just your opinion. It has no weight with reality.

  18. #738
    If you want to live in a self-induced climate of morbid fear, you can do that. But realise that it has no weight with reality.

  19. #739
    Registered Senior Member
    Posts
    23,053
    Quote Originally Posted by James R View Post
    If you want to live in a self-induced climate of morbid fear, you can do that. But realise that it has no weight with reality.
    Interesting, James, but have you seen the rates of crime in most major cities in the USA lately? That, my friend, is the "weight of reality" ....and yet you and what's-his-name convienently ignore it. Why? Is it the egocentric ideal of "Oh, that'll never happen to me!"?

    I would also reiterate ...what you see as "fear" is really the same feelings as electing to carry insurance on your car ...simply because you know that you don't have total and complete control over others or over situations. As such, you carry insurance on the car. Carrying a weapon is exactly, precisely the same feeling, the same idea. Ain't no difference ...and it ain't fear, is it, James?

    Baron Max

  20. #740
    Registered Senior Member
    Posts
    23,053
    Quote Originally Posted by TW Scott View Post
    If you do not understand how a gun can be useful and at time neccesary for your own protection at times, then that is your problem. If you don't want to carry one that is your decision.
    Ahh, but that would be just fine, Scott. But the problem is that they don't want you and I to protect ourselves! I don't care if they carry weapons or not, it's their choice ....but while you and I are being perfectly nice to them, they, on the other hand, are trying to keep us from protecting ourselves! That ain't very nice of them, is it?

    Baron Max

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