How do you feel about guns?

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by lixluke, Jul 31, 2006.

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Guns

  1. Have no place in this world. Should be abolished like slavery.

    33 vote(s)
    36.7%
  2. Are every human's right.

    57 vote(s)
    63.3%
  1. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,306
    Yeah, too bad you guys still have a high violent crime rate. Physical assaults are through the roof over there. Knife attacks and physical assaults top it. Something little people can't defend themselves against. If you had a gun, it'd even that out real quick. Oh, and you guys can still own guns, just highly restrictive.

    Although hey, the reasons you list show all the fault of yourself. If you (general "you" as I've heard others say the same thing) lack simple discipline to refrain from shooting someone over something so petty and trivial as those acts, it's a good thing you don't own one. However, why haven't you done other violent acts towards them instead? Or was all that just talk to poo-poo guns? Surely you've found other ways to get your revenge on those people, yes? See, guns don't do harm, people do. Guns are just a tool for a certain method. People will always find other ways to do so.

    - N
     
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  3. redarmy11 Registered Senior Member

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    7,658
    America has the highest homicide rate in the Western world. And don't give me that "guns don't harm, people do" crap. If people are so violent why give the most violent ones guns!??

    Fucking madness. You're all fucking mad.
     
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  5. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

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    5,595

    Entirely true.

    Guns make it too easy to harm and the size of the assailant is irrelevant.

    Knives are messy and many would never consider stabbing someone as it involves close body and actual contact with the victim, whereas a gun is a distant easily dispatched method of harm.
     
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  7. spuriousmonkey Banned Banned

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    24,066
    Something that every pro-gun person should think about.

    Guns are designed to kill people. Pencils are designed write words and make drawings of fluffy bunnies.
     
  8. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,595
    Additionally, we do not have to concern ourselves in the Uk with children going on a killing spree and shooting their class mates.
     
  9. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,595

    Meanwhile no one disputes there is a person controlling the gun, apparantly there are a lot of killer wanabee's in America then?
     
  10. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

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    9,214
    sniffy:

    "So Prince James you're saying "guns don't kill people rappers do"? "

    I would answer no, but after watching the BET awards...

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    redarmy11:

    "America has the highest homicide rate in the Western world. And don't give me that "guns don't harm, people do" crap. If people are so violent why give the most violent ones guns!??

    Fucking madness. You're all fucking mad. "

    I am not suggesting that the violent ones get guns. I am suggesting that those who need defense get guns.

    Leopold99:

    "Would it not serve society better to outlaw all private ownership of guns, since it's only the military, the police (and some farmers) that can argue they need guns?"

    Do not other people get attacked? Are they not victims of crime? The police do not arrive out of no where. In the time it takes for them to come, one could be dead.
     
  11. redarmy11 Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    7,658
    Here's an idea - my simple 2-step plan to stop gun crime in america:

    1. Immediately ban all guns (except for military and law enforcement authorities). This means a ban on hunting with guns and the like - for the greater good. Sorry.

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    2. Lock up anyone caught in possession of a gun for life until there are no more people free who are prepared to use a gun.

    Hey presto! No more gun deaths!

    So simple.
     
  12. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,595
    Thre is no answer to the gun problem in America, as it is a long held culture.

    Meanwhile I don't personally care what America does re the gun thing, I am just happy for guns to remain illegal here.
     
  13. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    Redarmy11:

    We all ready lock up people who are prepared to use a gun unjustly. It is called "the criminal justice system". Murderers are, in general, punished, as are assaulters with deadly weapons. Yet people still use them! Wow. It's like this entire punishment thing doesn't work to completely annihilate a problem!

    Theoryofrelativity:

    Two questions: From whence do you hail? And if you were attacked violently by another person and faced with imminent death, would not you prefer a means of assuring your safety even if it necessitated deadly force?
     
  14. sniffy Banned Banned

    Messages:
    2,945
    Have you tried getting a better lock or an alarm?
    Allowing anyone to have a gun means that there are more circulating for the bad guys to get their hands on. Although you can argue that the bad guys will always be able to get a gun surely if there are more of them swishing about then there are greater opportunities to obtain one.

    Guns were invented to kill even though there were already plenty of weapons which could maim and injure as well as kill. Guns allow you to kill at a distance in multiples and lesson the empathy you might have (if ever) had for your victims.
     
  15. Prince_James Plutarch (Mickey's Dog) Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    9,214
    TheoryOfRelativity:

    I suppose you rather care a great deal about other people to so limit yourself due to a fear of hurting them! There is something admirable, I wager, in such an atittude.

    But that being said, if you have no problem with deadly force to defend yourself, why then do you not support guns, which offer many people a means of securing their defense precisely in that case? Yes, they can also be abused, but so can many things.
     
  16. wsionynw Master Queef Valued Senior Member

    Messages:
    1,309
    I didn't say anything about banning murder, since murder is illegal. What's your point regarding finding dead bodies hacked up or shot up?

    Perhaps the people best qualified to decide whether or not private ownership of firearms is a good idea would be the police. They are the people that have to clean up after gun crime, so they must have an educated opinion on whether or not banning guns would help reduce gun crime.
    I can understand why people in the US want to own guns, they are shit scared of the guy next door, or the crazy guy in the street, or the terrorist, or the bank robber, or the angry ex-husband, etc, shooting them! In the UK (and many other European countries) gun crime is not such a big issue, and we do not live in fear. Perhaps Americans could learn from this?
     
  17. Tiassa Let us not launch the boat ... Staff Member

    Messages:
    35,971
    Guns do have a purpose in society, but there's a circular problem: the guns are necessary to hold off corrupt governments, but people with guns have no need to grow beyond such easy corruption, since they can just shoot the hell out of whatever gets in their way. The Second Amendment to the U.S. Constitution is sufficient for me, but strangely the NRA and other gun advocates feel the need to abridge and thereby misrepresent it in order to justify themselves to themselves and others. There seems to be some correlation, then, between owning a gun and personal insecurity. If these folks can't be honest with themselves, they can't be honest with other people. And that makes me question whether or not such folks should own guns in the first place. It's their right, sure, but just because we can doesn't mean we should.

    I think of the one person I know whose possession of firearms doesn't disturb me in the least. In fact, he's given up his guns. To the one, he realized that his nine-millimeter won't stop a tank, nor will a .22 or 30-06 hunting rifle. To the other, it also occurred to him that for most occasions that he would have to use his gun in defense, firearms are clumsy and unsuited to the task. Of course, for many gun owners, learning to shoot is much easier than conditioning their body with martial arts or similar defense techniques. And as a guy in Texas showed over a decade ago, it's a lot easier to shoot someone through your door for the crime of asking directions than it is to simply be decent, or show even a modest dose of courage.

    In my United States of America, there is a strange political correlation: Charlton Heston as president of the National Rifle Association, pointed out that guns protect our other rights. I'm still waiting for the gun owners to stand up for those other rights. Additionally, the NRA generally sides with Republicans, who also demand patriotism in the form of blind allegiance to whatever war a Republican president wants to get into. Strangely, then, Heston once made the point that guns will be the only thing to stop the military when they come to kill us for our guns. I've known a few military people in my day, and I don't think they'd obey such an order. Would you? "Go to your uncle's house and steal his guns. If he says anything about it, kill him."

    Many people get upset when a person disagrees with a justification for war. Apparently, to disagree with the justification is to slander the soldier. Strange, then, how nobody seems to get pissed off when a conservative coward like Heston depicts our service members as cold, cruel, and blind except to bloodlust. If that's not a poor regard for our soldiers, I don't know what is.

    But it seems to be acceptable. We can't get upset at the military when its members massacre unarmed civilians in the Arab world; that's apparently being cruel to our soldiers. But we can imagine them marching down Main Street, killing our children because we won't hand over a shotgun.

    Such issues, I think, paint a frightening picture of the people who can't get by from day to day without their precious, precious guns.

    Fot a gun, fact i got two.
    That's ok man, cuz i love god:
    Glorified version of a pellet gun
    Feels so manly, when armed​


    Pearl Jam, "Glorified G"​
     
  18. DJ Erock Resident Skeptic Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    458
    Have any of you ever been clay pidgeon shooting? Target shooting? Trap shooting? Man, that's fun, and its the only reason my family has any guns in our house.
     
  19. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,306
    Yes, and we also probably have the highest amount of people in poverty in the Western World too since our country is the size of Europe which accounts for having more crimes than anyone else. Heck, I have more people that live in my city than some of your countries have as a whole. Nice population density there.

    And as I mentioned before, most gun crimes happen in places where there are bans on guns. Big cities are the places most likely to have a gun ban yet have the highest gun crimes. Why? Well, duh, criminals don't follow the law so guns being illegal doesn't mean a damned thing. Law-abiding citizens don't have a means to defend themselves against those criminals who number a lot higher than in most places due to a higher congregation of criminals in cities.

    And we're not the most violent ones, the UK is worse. We have the highest total number of violent crimes due to population, but we don't have the highest percentage. The UK have the highest violent assault crimes. Deadly assaults will happen anywhere, and it doesn't matter if guns are banned because it'll be done with another tool or even their barehands if needs be. The victim doesn't have an approriate means to defend theirself against a bigger and more aggressive attacker. Guns solve that problem. As they say, "an armed socitey is a polite society". It's true because when you know there's a high chance of who you're about to insult, pick on, or commit a crime against, has a gun, you won't mess with em unless you're suicidal.

    Considering over 50 million people in the U.S. own a gun, I don't see the gun crimes being out of hand with those numbers. And again, most of those crimes happen in big cities where poverty is an abundant problem and where the city most likely already has a gun ban on law-abiding citizens. Guns are here to stay. Sure, if you could snap your fingers and make all guns disappear, cool that'd work, but it's also fantasy. Guns will always exist and criminals will always have them. If you don't mind that and expect to talk your way out of an assault against you, go right ahead. That, or you can move away from those cities to a place that has guns and let other civilians protect you without your knowledge.

    Another thing about your "most violent get guns" comment, as I find that amusing. Down in L.A., cops have a little there where you can trade in your own gun and get $50. For the life of me, I cannot understand the stupidity of the people that actually do that. In the bad parts of town of all places. Those are the ones that need the guns to defend themselves! Each time those gun trades happen, assaults soon increase because of the lack of defense by those citizens, heh.

    Messy? That's the excuse you're giving for a criminal not wanting to assault someone? LoL. Sure, maybe they're messy for you, a non-violent woman, but for someone with an aggressive mindset and/or a criminal, messy doesn't matter, LoL. If it gets the job done, it gets the job done.

    Yeah, that'll really work. How do you think gun crimes still happen in cities that have guns banned? Banning guns doesn't do a damned thing. Are we gonna have the police raid everyone's home to make sure they don't own a gun? It's easy to move a gun around without anyone knowing. Heck, I even know law-abiding citizens that have buried some of their old guns in fear of them getting banned. Just think what criminals would do to save em. They'll never disappear. Get it through your thick skulls.

    The problem is the poverty and the poor people and others that have them.

    Germany has a HUGE gun culture, they have no problems. Every person in Switzerland is required to have a gun in their home and also has a very low crime rate. A nice example of an armed society being a polite one. Guns are all over the world, yes, even in most Western countries!

    An alarm? A joke. A better lock? What for? You do realize most burglars don't even use the front or back door to enter a home, yes?

    Well, uh, considering that all countries in the world supply bad guys with arms, it's pretty easy for a criminal to get a gun. Most countries sell arms to other countries and make a killing off it, literally. There will always exist a black market so criminals will never have a problem. And no, not "anyone" can own a gun.

    The accessability of guns helps law-abiding citizens. Gun Control hurts law-abiding citizens. Again, it doesn't matter how easy a common person can get a gun, a criminal will be able to get one easier. I can go out and literally buy a gun in 10 minutes, with no limit on the illegal mods. If I legally purchase one, I have to wait 10 days and limit myself to one a month. That criminal will outdo you every single time. Those laws don't matter for criminals. If you want to hinder yourself, go right ahead. Who you're trying to stop has no effect.

    You do realize that you're just making yourself, and others like you, look very crazy by saying that stuff? You guys are the ones we should fear. Your types that do own guns are the ones killing everyone. For that, I'm glad psycho people are dying or getting throw in jail. It seems most gun owners are actually the sane ones as we follow protocol and safety big time. You don't have to worry about us, just the psycho people that don't own a gun. Yeah, I need my gun to protect myself from irritable people like ya'll that turn into the Hulk over any minor inconvenience. I'd never do or say that I'd lose my patience so easily and go so far as to assault them. But again, that's still just all talk from you as if it were true, you'd have already done those acts but with some other offensive weapon that's legal.

    Yep, shows you just how little the police can actually protect you. Not to mention little bobbies with their lil billy sticks, oh no! Shows how you aren't able to defend yourself. If only you had a concealed gun on you, you could have put a stop to all those assaults against you.

    But I thought they were messy?

    So again, you fear yourself more than some criminal? Yikes! And what's with you not having a problem using deadly force to defend yourself yet are against gun ownership?

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    Oh yeah, we can learn not to live in fear, I totally agree. However, the amount of guns or us owning guns period isn't the reason for those crimes. Europe has a big gun culture. Quite a few countries are required every home to have a rifle inside as a militia. That's at least one gun per household.. one in four people if you take a family of four. Lots of guns yet they have low crime rates compared to our poverty-ridden cities than have gun bans.

    Oh my god, we need to ban martial arts. Martial arts exists only to harm people. You can kill a lot of people using martial arts. It's evil!

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    Well, hey, in New Orleans during Hurricane Katrina, when people needed their guns the most to defend themselves from the crazy criminals out there going wild, the NOPD went and confiscated most guns from people's homes.

    Every cop I know is for it. I know many. They even go out of their way to letcha know they can't always be there to help you. They also tell us to always carry some kind of protection, even if not a gun, because freaks are out there. When you still have a few minutes before the police arrive at your home while the burglar or assaulter is in your house, what are you gonna do?

    Here, try reading this. It pretty much sums up most of what I'm trying to say.

    http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/files/FailedExperiment.pdf

    - N
     
  20. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,595
    I SAID IN PREVIOUS POST:

    "
    Most people here do not carry guns when committing crimes, but if they were legal, we'd all have them. I would be dangerous and so would everyone else. ”

    NEILDO said:

    "You do realize that you're just making yourself, and others like you, look very crazy by saying that stuff? "

    MY REPLY:
    yes of course, hence my reason being anti gun, glad you agree

    NEILDO said:

    "You guys are the ones we should fear."

    MY REPLY:
    Again this is in support of my point, there are crazy people out there who should not have guns but they CAN and DO

    NEILDO said:

    "Your types that do own guns are the ones killing everyone. For that, I'm glad psycho people are dying or getting throw in jail. It seems most gun owners are actually the sane ones as we follow protocol and safety big time. You don't have to worry about us, just the psycho people that don't own a gun. Yeah, I need my gun to protect myself from irritable people like ya'll that turn into the Hulk over any minor inconvenience. I'd never do or say that I'd lose my patience so easily and go so far as to assault them."

    MY REPLY:

    Again the point I am making except.........

    NEILDO said:
    ".....But again, that's still just all talk from you as if it were true, you'd have already done those acts but with some other offensive weapon that's legal."

    MY REPLY:
    Glad you noticed that...........
    I AM not a psycho and I don't own a gun, nor would I. the real psycho's DO OWN GUNS as you have just noted yourself. Violent psycho will harm by any means and no means better than a gun.

    THANKYOU FOR MAKING THIS POINT AND PLAYING OUT MINE SO WELL.

    FINALLY:


    I SAID:
    “ As it is I have merely been strangled, kicked in the head repeatedly, kicked with steel toe capped boots, had bricks, & knives thrown at me and of course fists etc. Oh and I've been kicked by someone wearing hockey skates. ”


    NEILDO said:
    "Shows how you aren't able to defend yourself. If only you had a concealed gun on you, you could have put a stop to all those assaults against you."

    MY REPLY:
    I was a child Neil. As far as I know Neildo your kids arn't armed when they go out to play..or am I wrong about that? Meanwhile the point I was making is if they had guns rather than being bricks it would have been bullets they attacked me with.

    I SAID:

    “ I used to carry a knife myself for protection to school and when out. ”

    NEILDO said:
    "But I thought they were messy?"

    MY REPLY:
    we don't have guns in Uk Neildo, not accessible to school kids..unlike in sane old USA..and it was for protection walking home in dark..I would be very loathe to use it, I have knife phobia.

    Neildo There are plenty of people who are sensible with them and PLENTY of people who are not. Thus my reasons for being anti, BUT THIS IS RE UK, NOT USA. I understand gun culture in America and I don't care to challenge or change it SO GET OFF MY CASE.

    America can't reverse their culture and I don't care whether they do or don't. Why would I, I don't live there, but if I did I would get me a gun...and fuck the neighbours if they ever woke me up from a deep sleep. Too right, I shouldn't have a gun,. but if I come to America, I can get me one

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    Last edited: Aug 1, 2006
  21. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

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    5,306
    Don't worry, I'm not on your case even if it may seem like it. When I post, I don't even bother to look at the person's name, just their statements. Too many conflicts of interests otherwise. If I did, I wouldn't have even bothered responding to you, oh she with the temper as fiery as her hair. Mrrrow.

    Uh, no it wouldn't mean it'd be guns you'd be attacked with. Most rapes and assaults don't involve a gun. And the person that attacked you could have still used a gun, because they're a criminal that doesn't care about anti-gun laws. The gun bans only hurt yourself from defending yourself with one, not the law-breaking criminals that don't pay attention to the law. That's what you need to wake up and realize.

    "My dads best friend was murdered by a man with a gun..and this is the UK."

    Need I say more?

    Hey, read that .pdf file I linked to at the end of my previous post. It shows the failure of the gun bans in Canada, Australia, and the UK. Violent crime increased in those countries because of it as nobody has a means to defend themself with. An attacker will shrug if you have a knife, but when it's a gun, they'll think twice about it.

    - N
     
  22. Theoryofrelativity Banned Banned

    Messages:
    5,595
    Neildo, If I was in USA, I would have a gun, everyone does and so I would be no different, but here where majority don't it's best without and carrying them deff not a good idea. TEMPERS in big cities are very frayed VERY.

    For the record, I have played with a poorly hidden sawn off shotgun as a kid (most likely loaded) the peeps I knew had guns.....not good. For crime not protection.

    Who knows maybe we'll reach a point here where citizens feel they need them, but when you got kids breaking inot houses occupied to get dope money, is having a gun a good idea? I would shoot to kill if I found an intruder as I wouln't want to take a chance of them hurting my kids, then my kids would have no mother as its illegal here to use more than necc force, and necc force here is asking them politely to leave oh....after you'd let them do what they want....and made them a cup of tea.
     
  23. Neildo Gone Registered Senior Member

    Messages:
    5,306
    Question: When you say you would go around and shoot people for the most trivial of confrontations, is that if you had a gun and not the other person, or would you even do so knowing the other person had a gun on them as well?

    But hey, you say if you lived in the U.S., you would own a gun. In that case, you need to c'mon over. Actually, nevermind, at least wait until Bush is gone.

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    Again, the .pdf showing the failure of the UK, Canada, and Australian gun control laws:

    http://www.fraserinstitute.ca/admin/books/files/FailedExperiment.pdf


    All you're doing is making yourselves out to be bigger victims than you already are. Gun control only affects law-abiding citizens, not the criminals you're trying to stop.

    - N
     

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