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Thread: Scientific proof that chi is fake

  1. #21
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    But as to whether life has or is some mysterious energy force that can be used or manipulated to heal, harm, or otherwise affect objects or people at a distance there is no supporting evidence.
    and you are overreaching and superstitious. no one said it was 'mysterious' and what do you mean heal, harm or otherwise affect objects or people? oh btw, 'leaking energy' was funny.

    obviously energy has an effect on it's surroundings. if it weren't so, people wouldn't be affected by moods or energies.

    the force you used to throw an object is still energy.

    there is no use in arguing with people that get so literal as to be blind to common sense. this is like the extreme polar obtuse of thiest idiocy. lol

    interesting no one addressed the staring at the back of someone's head. no doubt one would say it was just a coincidence they turned to look behind though it wasn't people can feel 'energies'. evidently none of you have any life experience. lol

  2. #22
    plagued by infinities Raithere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by birch View Post
    and you are overreaching and superstitious. no one said it was 'mysterious' and what do you mean heal, harm or otherwise affect objects or people?
    Ch'i, unlike other forms of energy such as heat, light, electricity, or kinetic apparently cannot be detected or measured by anything other than the people who claim it exists. This would make it rather mysterious, as in unknown and unusual, not superstitious.

    Ch'i is also reputedly used or manipulated to heal (such as with acupuncture), harm (as in the video), or affect objects or people (as in practice of Taijiquan).

    oh btw, 'leaking energy' was funny.
    Actually, it's quite literal. The human body does not produce energy. We consume energy in the form of food, metabolize it into more readily accessible forms that our cells can use, and then the cells use it to perform work. During these processes energy escapes the body unused, primarily in the form of heat. In other words, it leaks.

    obviously energy has an effect on it's surroundings. if it weren't so, people wouldn't be affected by moods or energies.
    What sorts of energies are you referring to? Light, heat, electricity?

    there is no use in arguing with people that get so literal as to be blind to common sense. this is like the extreme polar obtuse of thiest idiocy. lol
    If you use imprecise terms you get misunderstanding. If you're merely speaking figuratively, then sure Ch'i exists as a vague concept with very little correlation to the physical world. So does Santa Claus. So are you speaking figuratively or literally when you say that Ch'i exists?

    interesting no one addressed the staring at the back of someone's head. no doubt one would say it was just a coincidence they turned to look behind though it wasn't people can feel 'energies'. evidently none of you have any life experience. lol
    I'm sure we all have but your description is a bit sparse. If you walked into the room and the stood and stared at someone the most likely explanation was that they heard you come in and stop and turned around to look. Even if you came in silently, your presence behind the person can cause sound waves to change their pattern signifying a change or presence in the room. If you were in a room with multiple people (such as a classroom) the person may have noticed (consciously or unconsciously) the movements and glances of other people in the room and turned to look at what they were reacting to. We are typically unaware of all the data pouring in through all our senses every second, even though our brains are still processing and interpreting this data. Or even more likely is the fact that if you stare at someone long enough, eventually you will see them turn and look around, people just tend to do that every so often.

    Mostly the problem is that whenever these things are tested in a controlled setting these Ch'i related abilities seem to disappear. Prana healing no longer works, psychics can no longer see auras, read thoughts, or detect emotions, Taijiquan masters can no longer toss people around a room without touching them, Acupuncture has no effect beyond the physical insertion of needles into the body, and as in the video people don't get knocked out.

    But, you know, maybe they were raising their big toes up.

    ~Raithere

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by birch View Post
    interesting no one addressed the staring at the back of someone's head. no doubt one would say it was just a coincidence they turned to look behind though it wasn't people can feel 'energies'. evidently none of you have any life experience. lol
    No need to address this anecdote. The US Govt spent a lot of money on Psi research, and got zilch. Various other institutes have performed similar experiments and got zilch. Randi offers a lot of money to people to demonstrate such powers, but he has still got all of the money.

    Simply, you have a one off, anecdotal experience. You don't recall all the times this didn't happen, and are concentrating on the one time it did.

    Do it 100 times, and get back to us.

  4. #24
    SF's Incontestable Pimp 420Joey's Avatar
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    Phlogistician you state matter-of-factly that psi abilities do not exist because the US Govt has conducted alot of research in that area and has not reported any existing to the general populace. I'll put it this way, your frame of thinking is your own but its subjective, I don't think the goverment would even tell the populace about certain things, especially if it is not linked to there agenda. I can list several experiments and research the goverment has done that is linked to psuedo-concepts, why even waste the time if there is nothing to it?

    As for chi, westerners call it energy, japanese ki, eastern prana, its just the life force that permeates everything around us. It's an established fact were governed by energy that is what were fundamentally composed of and sustained on- martial arts demonstate physical movements that are good with certain breathing techniques and high level of concentration to try to harness some of this energy in motion.

    Why is that so bad? Ofcourse there are going to be many quacks using it as exploit, or people that exagerate claims but I do think there are many people that have control of there energy. JFK had a picture of a monk that was meditating as he was burning in fire, if he wasnt controlling his energies he must have been on alot of morphine or some other shit.

    I can say I have an imaginary friend can you prove he does not exist? Are you on such a high horse can you not see that maybe there are some feelings that are beyond words and it might have to do with your chi or energy flow distribution.... EVERYTHING has chi, all organisms of every kind.............................................

  5. #25
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    I hate how people say that we cant measure chi and if something is not scientifically understood its rejected we dont even understand why we dream or what it actually is among other things does it mean we do not dream or that it is not real

  6. #26
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    Joey,

    The problem is that your are taking normal physical and mental properties and abilities and assigning them to a single term that is laden with supernatural meaning. This only confuses what you are talking about and makes it more susceptible to exaggeration and exploitation.

    Certainly people can demonstrate an amazing capacity of mental focus. When in such a state they are capable of some pretty amazing feats. But these feats are not ascribable to any special energy force. They fall well inside the scope of physics and biology.

    There is no "life force" as such. Upon scrupulous and detailed examination all life functions can be explained by ordinary physical and chemical processes. There is nothing missing. If there were there would be a great big hole in the middle of the science of biology. It would be the single most investigated biological topic. Any scientist would give their left-nut (or ovary) to discover such a force, it would be the discovery of the century, perhaps the millennium.

    No human ever tested in a controlled situation has ever been able to demonstrate a capacity to affect anything external to their body without the use of a measurable physical force. And there has been a LOT of testing.

    So all you wind up doing when you use such terms as Ch'i, Prana, or Life Force, is confuse things for people. Mostly, your own ability to understand life.

    ~Raithere

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by 420Joey View Post
    Phlogistician you state matter-of-factly that psi abilities do not exist because the US Govt has conducted alot of research in that area and has not reported any existing to the general populace.
    The US Govt, and various other institutes and Universities, and Randi still has his money. Proven beyond doubt, therefore.


    I'll put it this way, your frame of thinking is your own but its subjective,
    No, a scientifically proven point of view.

    I don't think the goverment would even tell the populace about certain things,
    Stop banging on about the Govt, psi research has been conducted by many places.

    especially if it is not linked to there agenda. I can list several experiments and research the goverment has done that is linked to psuedo-concepts, why even waste the time if there is nothing to it?
    There's a lot of history behind the US Psi program, but starting an investigation doesn't mean they are going to get positive results. Just that they felt they should try to find out if there was possibly any application of psi concepts. There wasn't.

    As for chi, westerners call it energy, japanese ki, eastern prana, its just the life force that permeates everything around us. It's an established fact were governed by energy that is what were fundamentally composed of and sustained on- martial arts demonstate physical movements that are good with certain breathing techniques and high level of concentration to try to harness some of this energy in motion.
    You are convolving Ki and Chi. They are not the same. Ki is breathing, Chi is bullshit.

    Why is that so bad? Ofcourse there are going to be many quacks using it as exploit, or people that exagerate claims but I do think there are many people that have control of there energy. JFK had a picture of a monk that was meditating as he was burning in fire, if he wasnt controlling his energies he must have been on alot of morphine or some other shit.
    Self control ≠ Chi.

    I can say I have an imaginary friend can you prove he does not exist?
    That's fallacious thinking. You make the claim, it's up to up to you to prove the positive. One cannot prove a negative.

    Are you on such a high horse can you not see that maybe there are some feelings that are beyond words and it might have to do with your chi or energy flow distribution.... EVERYTHING has chi, all organisms of every kind.............................................
    Chi does not exist. You are merely convolving various normal biological things into something else.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Raithere View Post

    Certainly people can demonstrate an amazing capacity of mental focus. When in such a state they are capable of some pretty amazing feats. But these feats are not ascribable to any special energy force. They fall well inside the scope of physics and biology.
    Take the very first demonstration in this video:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7mqQIwvNC8

    I know this trick, my Kung Fu instructor friend showed it to me. Notice how Sensei is pushing up on the forearms of the guy pushing him? This redirects the pushing force, and it makes it very hard to be pushed. My Kung Fu instructor friend learned this one from his 'Vagabond Moves' book, they are age old tricks used to sucker people into believing in the esoteric. When in reality, they are merely tricks.

  9. #29
    SF's Incontestable Pimp 420Joey's Avatar
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    The Chinese = Chi,
    the Japanese call it Qi,
    the Indians call it Prana, what is Chi? Looks like most rebuttles are based on preconceptions. I dont know why everybody here is acting like our reality is perfectly understood in the context of western science.

    The mind, consciousness and flow of chi or energy lets say are closely related. Assume that chi and human consiousness consist of the same non-physical organizing field. Attempting to harness it for outward physical purposes would make sense since its the non-physical that creates the physical.

    There seems to be an equillibrum in human nature thats not sustained across the board, chi could be the application, that affects chemical structures, emotions, etc. My conception of chi is that it is energy that the digestion and various body organs utilize and that air and everything is made up of the same source of distrubted energy.

  10. #30
    plagued by infinities Raithere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 420Joey View Post
    Looks like most rebuttles are based on preconceptions.
    These aren't preconceptions, they're measurable facts. You can go in and look to see what's actually happening. You can run tests to see if energy consumption is equal to it's output (it is). There's nothing missing that wants for explanation.

    I dont know why everybody here is acting like our reality is perfectly understood in the context of western science.
    No one is stating this. Certainly there are things that are unknown or not understood. But much of biology is understood down to the subatomic level. And as far as how the body uses energy and where it comes from, the answer is pretty damn complete.

    The mind, consciousness and flow of chi or energy lets say are closely related. Assume that chi and human consiousness consist of the same non-physical organizing field. Attempting to harness it for outward physical purposes would make sense since its the non-physical that creates the physical.
    Why do we need to introduce a "non-physical organizing field"?

    Why not make it a meta-physical cheese spread, that acts as a cohesive force between mind-substance, physical-substance, and energy-substance... like a cheddary mortar?

    Do you see the problem?

    There seems to be an equillibrum in human nature thats not sustained across the board, chi could be the application, that affects chemical structures, emotions, etc. My conception of chi is that it is energy that the digestion and various body organs utilize and that air and everything is made up of the same source of distrubted energy.
    But we already know how energy is distributed throughout the body and the mechanisms needed to maintain equilibrium are already there. So what is the point of making shit up in order to explain something we can already explain?

    These are really just summarized views of a small part of what we understand. But maybe it'll help you understand something of how much we really do know about how the body uses energy.

    http://expertpages.com/news/concepts...ineering_8.htm
    http://www.biology-online.org/7/6_food.htm
    http://www.biology-online.org/4/3_blood_sugar.htm

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2f7YwCtHcgk
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juM2ROSLWfw
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xbJ0nbzt5Kw

    ~Raithere

  11. #31
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    These aren't preconceptions, they're measurable facts. You can go in and look to see what's actually happening. You can run tests to see if energy consumption is equal to it's output (it is). There's nothing missing that wants for explanation.
    Thatis a bold statement considering that we know essentially nothing about how such energy is created in the first place just that it exists There is a certain amount of energy required to accelerate a given amount of mass. Why is it impossible to think of harnessing a layer or source of energy unseen but felt by many people.

    Gravity creates the acceleration. Gravity itself is an effect caused by the accelerating movement of dark energy. Everything around us = atoms, subatomic particles, dense energy occupying a state. The law of conservation makes this seem plausible to me. Regardless "externalists" are not going to view chi or energy as something that can be harnessed whereas "internalists" belive it possible so to each his own.

  12. #32
    SF's Incontestable Pimp 420Joey's Avatar
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    Anyway,

    Let's say it doesent exist the mental constructs and applications created during the process to attain and harness chi would have such a benefiting effect that whether or not you are actually controlling chi is immaterial, creating energy from the willed series of thoughts, concentration and physical movements = Reality to some, fantasy for others is the best way to put it.

  13. #33
    plagued by infinities Raithere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 420Joey View Post
    Thatis a bold statement considering that we know essentially nothing about how such energy is created in the first place just that it exists
    This is not an escape clause for you. If it invalidates empirical science then it certainly invalidates any evidence you might take to be proof of Ch'i as well. Not to mention, if we follow this reasoning to its conclusion all knowledge is rendered invalid since we do not know the ultimate origin of anything.

    There is a certain amount of energy required to accelerate a given amount of mass. Why is it impossible to think of harnessing a layer or source of energy unseen but felt by many people.
    It's not impossible to think about. It's been thought about and hypothesized about a lot. The problem is there is no evidential support for these hypotheses.

    Regardless "externalists" are not going to view chi or energy as something that can be harnessed whereas "internalists" belive it possible so to each his own.
    Belief is irrelevant. One needs only examine the claims being made. Can the claim be tested? In the case of the video, the claim could be tested. As with other such claims made about Ch'i it failed.
    That such claims are false means that Ch'i as defined by such practitioners that make these claims about Ch'i as a physical force does not exist.

    This does not mean Ch'i cannot exist as an idea, a tool for mental focus. Of course it does. But so does god, unicorns, the flying spaghetti monster, superman, and everything else we can imagine. Establishing one's conception of reality on such notions is problematic, especially if you have no method for choosing which are real and which aren't.

    ~Raithere

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by 420Joey View Post
    The Chinese = Chi,
    the Japanese call it Qi,
    Qi and Chi are not the same.

    Maybe if you put the reefer down got your ass off your mom's couch, and went to a Kwoon and a Dojo, and spent some time at each, you'd learn this.

  15. #35
    SF's Incontestable Pimp 420Joey's Avatar
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    Qi and chi both mean energy dipstick.

  16. #36
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    This is not an escape clause for you. If it invalidates empirical science then it certainly invalidates any evidence you might take to be proof of Ch'i as well. Not to mention, if we follow this reasoning to its conclusion all knowledge is rendered invalid since we do not know the ultimate origin of anything.
    The title of this thread states "scientific proof that chi is fake". This is not correct, the video is not proof of anything. The point was this; our reality essentially is energy, even an empty space has it, numerous being are not measurable. There are so many different types; so many labels, what is chi? A question maybe relative not absolute like you make it appear to be. Have you ever heard a story where a patient survives or recovers from a chronic illness leaving the doctor puzzled?? maybe western science is the physical approach and there is another approach that can be remedied by mind or equillibrum of energy centers.

    The concept for a universal life force, or chi has a long history dating back to 200 B.C . The belief is that this energy is in everything and around everything. It collaborates with other theories E= mc2, Albert Einstein "proved" everything in the universe is energy.

    Our body is powered by electrical energy I dont understand why you disqualify the application of chi what your saying is that it is impossible for Human Beings to attain control or to harness energy that sustains there being?

    we create electromechanical applications to regulate the flow of energy in electronic devices. We convert one form of energy to a more useful form and create batteries and power plants. Do you think energy is just something that powers your laptop and your houses?

    time, mass, space, plasma, light, life, thought isnt this all energy? energy flows eternally through the universe its beyond our scope of thinking how much energy there truely is.

    Our brain and heart and nervous systems? What does it operate on, what creates motion what makes your arms move? When we expend to much energy if we rests wont it come back?

    Maybe if our eyes werent so primitive and dependant on our physical senses we can see energy bodies. Maybe every being in this existance will be recycled and converted to a different kind of energy from the same force or energy that created our carbon beings maybe we keep converting and exchanging into new beings and live forever with the development of new universes and new senses.

    Maybe just maybe chi and other excercises to harness this energy are people trying to ascend and are people not satasfied with the perfect understanding of our selves western-science provides us. Maybe your just not one of those people

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by 420Joey View Post
    Qi and chi both mean energy dipstick.
    They are not the same. Go learn something, dopehead.

  18. #38
    plagued by infinities Raithere's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 420Joey View Post
    Our body is powered by electrical energy I dont understand why you disqualify the application of chi what your saying is that it is impossible for Human Beings to attain control or to harness energy that sustains there being?
    I didn't say it was impossible. It's quite possible to harness human energy. We do so every time we ride a bicycle, build a sand castle, light a fire with two sticks, or speak. What is extremely unlikely and to date utterly and completely without evidence are the claims that we can project that energy directly to affect things at a distance without some intervening mechanism.

    When we expend to much energy if we rests wont it come back?
    No. Resting won't resupply you with energy. You have to eat.

    Maybe just maybe chi and other excercises to harness this energy are people trying to ascend and are people not satasfied with the perfect understanding of our selves western-science provides us. Maybe your just not one of those people
    It would be an amazing achievement and if they do discover it you can count me in. Unfortunately, at this time no one has been able to demonstrate this kind of ability.

    Thus far, it is pure fantasy.

    ~Raithere

  19. #39
    SF's Incontestable Pimp 420Joey's Avatar
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    I dont know about pure fantasy but I agree that it cant be scientifically proven.

    Phlogistian they are the same fool.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by 420Joey View Post

    Phlogistian they are the same fool.
    Having spent seven years studying Judo in my youth, and having a friend who is a Kung Fu instructor, I assure you, that they are not.

    Now, put the reefer down, get off your mommas couch, and go get a job, loser.

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