Scientific proof that chi is fake

Discussion in 'Eastern Philosophy' started by IndianCurry2010, Nov 23, 2010.

  1. Kittamaru Apparently some are more equal... Staff Member

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    Kiddo, you come across as really pathetic when you attempt to go "e-thug" you know that...?

    Just for reference - I own four "katanas"; two replica swords, 1 rated as battle ready, and one World War 2 Japanese Infantryman Katana (haven't placed the rank or anything yet - still working on getting it fully identified).

    I have a small plethora of other blades, including a Wakizashi (which is the pair of my battle ready sword), a machete, and a few other assorted odds and ends, including a Scottish Highland Claymore.

    Your assertion that you could "slice me up into little pieces" is nothing but foolish puffery - you neither know who I am, what I look like, or what my capabilities are - however, given that you are so quick to become aggressive (and perhaps a tad irrational), I would be willing to reckon that you have NO training in ANY style of martial arts, much less in any style that makes use of a sword.

    I would, in fact, go so far as to say that you would be more dangerous to YOURSELF with your own blade than you would be to anyone around you.

    To top it off - you charge me with a sword, and you're likely to get shot... I don't have a license to carry for my health you know (well, technically, it is for my health... given the number of crazies running around... but you get the point).

    So, get off your high horse, or take your attitude and stuff it.

    I reassert - in the PRACTICAL SENSE, Ki and Qi are one and the same. Some cultures use Qi as the definition of the Life Force or Spirit instead of just the energy of the body.

    Evidenced in:

    Citation - Daniel A. James, "Unraisable body: The physics of martial arts", Sports Health, Autumn 2004, Sports Medicine Australia, Canberra

    Perhaps a bit of light reading will clear up your confusion, phlogistician?
     
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  3. ScaryMonster I’m the whispered word. Valued Senior Member

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    If Chi isn't real then what's this? It's a F__king Chi ball! You can't make one
    because your not spiritual enough.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2011
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  5. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    You've seen the linked videos, right? Qi Gung practitioners failing to affect people, not pulling off their mystic moves, not managing the no touch knockout, or getting beaten up by an MMA fighter after pushing students around with Qi?

    So if Qi and Ki are the same, and I have studied Judo and Jiu Jitusu and understand Ki, and my Ki-ai, would you stand before me, and use Qi to defend yourself? My Ki is physical, and you would be a fool to try and use a mystic force to save yourself from a physical one. That was the point, I wasn't taunting your ego.
     
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  7. 420Joey SF's Incontestable Pimp Valued Senior Member

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    Phlogistian is taking everything out of context. Phlo you are not disciplined in shit if someone stood before you they would kick your ass. Chi is a subjective term. Qi/Chi/Ki means the same thing. Defend against your KI with QI? Wake up.
     
  8. Kittamaru Apparently some are more equal... Staff Member

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    Exactly... differing cultures (hell, differing forms of martial arts WITHIN the same culture) call it by different names... I consider it similar to differing dialects and the like - just because someone down in the "deep south" calls it pop, and someone up north calls it soda, doesn't mean it isn't the same thing...

    I see what you mean, and while I don't necessarily agree with it, I apologize for getting defensive - I tend to get rather irritated when I feel my safety (or that of my family) has been threatened, especially over the internet by someone that doesn't have a clue who I even am

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    I realize now I took what you said a little too literally.
     
  9. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    I'm taking it in the context of my experience as an ex-Judoka, who sometimes spars with a KungFu instructor, who have discussed different aspect of our our arts and philosophies together.

    I have studied Judo, and Jiu Jitsu, and had lessons in Kung Fu and MMA. I have also self studied Iaido. Have you ever even been into a Dojo? Had a lesson? Stuck with it?

    The last guy to 'kick my ass' was a professional MMA fighter kid. Here's the thing though: I dared face him.

    No, it means similar things. Superficially similar to the untrained, but actually, quite different.

    Me wake up? What have you got? You got neither. You are dreaming if you think you have.

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  10. Kittamaru Apparently some are more equal... Staff Member

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    Well, yes and no - again, it depends on the context and which culture/religion/martial arts you are referring to.

    For example, Mandarin, English, Simplified Chinese, Vietnamese, Japanese, and Korean all pronounce (and spell) it different ways:

    In the Japanese language, the Chinese character corresponding to "qi" (氣) is pronounced 'ki'. The Japanese language contains over 11,442 known usages of "ki" as a compound. As a compound, it tends to represent syllables associated with the mind, the heart, feeling, the atmosphere, and flavor.[citation needed]

    *shrugs* So, yeah, I come back to my former proposal - soda/pop, fries/chips, soccer/football... same basic premise, two different names

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  11. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    Ah, but things with common names, and common ancestry diverge.

    You mention 'chips' which is a case in point. In the UK, 'chips' are fat slices of fried potato. In the US, thin and crispy. The US variant is so called, because thin chips were ordered in Saratoga ad the customer wanted them really thin, and so the 'crisp' as we know it in the UK was born.

    Now, while having similar attributes, you have to admit differences between our chips, and yours.

    Things evolved in Japan faster than other eastern countries,... take the swords, originally they were straight, like Chinese Jian, but were adapted and modified into something completely different. The word is 'ken' not so far off 'Jian' either.

    Things change. KungFu is derived from yoga, but considerably different, for instance.
     
  12. andi_3k Registered Member

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    Sigh.

    Chi means Breath or Air . literally. if you deny air/breath exits, well - that's your choice I guess


    Have you studied a martial art? Since 1982. And I hold blackbelts in 5 different dragon styles of Kung Fu Does that qualify me to speak?


    Performed Chi Gung exercises with a Kung Fu instructor? many times. And taught a few myself. Does that qualify me to speak?

    Honestly, I don't care what you call it, since when is Youtube the definitive proof for anything? There are studies out there that can "prove" just about anything and just as many to "disprove" the same thing.
    Why does it matter so much if folks believe chi exists or doesn't? if the belief works for them and even if it helps them heal - what skin is it off your nose? I truly don't understand the argument/vendetta you seem to be having with others believing in Chi?
    There seems to be a large amount of vitriol for people who don't agree with you - why? Why is it so important to you to "convert" others to your line of thought?
    I am sure you will be attacking me as a "looser" or a "stoner" or whatever ever...your hate's on you.
     
  13. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    Er, that's what I said. The Ki-ai is physical.

    But we have this Dillman character, amongst others, teaching kids they can make and throw 'Chi Balls',.... esoteric nonsense.


    Have you not read the entire thread before offering an opinion?

    It demonstrates that there are many and various people that think an esoteric force can be harnessed to improve martial prowess. Dillman sells DVDs of his 'technique'. The youtube stuff is linked to show that not all of us agree on what Chi/Qi/Ki is. I say it is physical preparation, breathing, others think it's a mystic energy.

    That is rather naive.

    Seems you yourself do not believe in the esoteric, mystic energy of Chi, but think of it as breathing exercises. I think the same way.

    Hold on, Joey will not accept that there are different interpretations of Ki/Chi/Qi, and he is NOT a martial artist! He is being bullheaded and talking from ignorance. He also shows contempt for science, and this is a scientific message board. Hence the vitriol, he deserves it.

    No, I'd spell it right.

    You are aware that the '420' in Joey's name is a Cannabis reference? He's been an abuser since he was a schoolkid? Called his own mother a bitch because she wanted to drug test him, so he would do better at school? There's history here, you can't come in and judge with just four posts under your belt, unless you are yet another tiresome sock puppet. But here you are, judging,....
     
  14. andi_3k Registered Member

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    Actually...I didn't and won't tell you what I believe about Chi or anything else. I merely gave you the translations.
    The Ki-ai that you refer to is nothing more that a short expulsion of air - what some misspeak of as a yell. Very different from what the Chinese view as Chi, in that you are correct. However dismissing Chi as "esoteric" is only one way of viewing it - in my 29 years of study, I have come across many other definitions/beliefs/thoughts about it, none are anymore valid than the next, including yours or Joeys. You seem to be on a quest to make everyone here view this solely through your lenses. Not going to work.
    I don't care what someone's "history" is - they can still be spoken with respect in each and every conversation, something that I don't see here. The names and mocking are not conducive to dialogue - not that I see you being interested in any viewpoint but yours. Your anger comes through in every post you make.
    Do I think acupuncture works? Sure do. I've seen it work, but you'd not be interested in those anecdotal histories as it seems your mind is made up. acupuncture is based on Chi, meridians and so forth.

    If someone can make actual Chi balls - > they are a far greater Martial Artist than I, however I have learned in the past 29 years of study not to discount anything completely - there are more things Horatio, yada, yada. And there are a good many things that science has not yet "proven" that many folks believe in. Do all of them deserve the derision I've seen here? Like I said I am not going to tell you what I believe on this ( or any other) matter...it's not important, but I do encourage you to keep your mind open to ALL the possibilities
     
  15. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    10,342
    Which means you are saying that Joey is wrong.


    Quote the opposite, Joey is trying to force the definitions to be the same. I am merely pointing out that different practitioners have different understandings. He will not accept that, but he has no experience as a practitioner.

    His history is that he hasn't studied a martial art.

    He called his own mother a bitch for trying to do the right thing my him: he has no honour himself.

    It's not anger, it's derision.

    Explained as Chi meridians,... because there is not a scientific explanation yet.

    Yeah yeah, but the wiggle room doesn't open a wide enough crack for all of the woowoo to enter.

    There is a saying, 'Keep your mind open, but not so much your brains fall out.'

    I fear it's too late for Joey.
     
  16. andi_3k Registered Member

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    Never said that. Honestly I have more of a problem with your stance than I do with Joey's. *shrug*
     
  17. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    You need to start explaining yourself.
     
  18. birch Valued Senior Member

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    you aren't seeing the trees for the forest. it's not a case of whether it happens every time but that some people are more sensitive or can pick up on things much more than others. in this case, they just 'knew' they were being stared at. i could tell they could even feel it. what i find even more interesting is that you've never experienced anything like it. i can't entirely explain the process but it's something that i recall but put in the back of my mind as one of those questions that will not be answered anytime soon.


    UH NO. it wasn't anything like that. no one saw me looking at anybody or sharing glances as i was sitting in the very back of the class and i happen to focus on the back of the head of someone in the front of the class for a minute. i gradually sensed they were picking up on it as well and they turned around and looked straight back at me with an expression of 'i could feel that'.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2011
  19. Rav Valued Senior Member

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    2,422
    Obi-Wan called it the Force.

    Seriously though, many many years ago I was walking rather briskly up a steep hill one day and started to develop of very painful side stitch under my lower ribcage. For no particular reason that I can remember, rather than stopping to rest I decided to try a breathing and visualization exercise that I had read about in some wellbeing magazine somewhere. I started breathing more slowly and more deeply. On each inhale I imagined that I was breathing in a brilliant radiating light that permeated my entire body (and my chest in particular) and on each exhale I imagined that I was expelling darker negative energy. To my surprise I cured my side stitch in what seemed to be less than a minute and continued charging up the hill with a renewed fervour.

    Now, I have always been a very scientific thinker with an insatiable curiosity about how things really work and what they really are, so I was naturally intrigued with why this breathing exercise had been so effective. The answer, as almost every fitness enthusiast on these boards will no doubt be already aware, is that shallow breathing while engaging in certain types of exercise (particularly running) tends to stress the ligaments that connect the diaphragm to the liver. Deeper breathing allows those connective ligaments to relax and can therefore prevent or cure a side stitch. The visualization part of my breathing exercise was irrelevant. As an acquaintance of mine once said when I told him this story, "Science wins again".

    The moral of my little story should be pretty obvious. Had I been a less scientifically minded and less curious person, I probably would have gone on with the rest of my life believing that it was the wonderful "radiating light" that had cured my side stitch and would no doubt have embraced it as something that was legitimately "real". I would have shared my little anecdote with everyone who cared to listen and I'm sure others would have shared similar anecdotes with me. I would have also tracked down that "wellbeing" magazine, purchased a subscription, and lived happily ever after. And there wouldn't have been anything in particular that was wrong with any of that.

    To relate this back to the topic at hand more specifically, I believe that during those situations where some people feel that they are channeling Qi, they are simply in a place that almost all of us have been in before. They are in "The Zone", or as modern psychology terms it, "Flow" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flow_(psychology)). To quote from the linked WikiPedia article, "In an extreme state of being in the zone, time slows down and unusually higher physical performance may be achieved".

    Rather than cut and paste any further quotes, which I feel inclined to do so because I believe that so much of it is relevant to this discussion, I will simply encourage all interested parties to have a good read.

    During my own experiences with martial arts training, I was able to experience "Flow" quite easily as the nature of such training is very conducive to achieving such a state. After all it typically demands an intense focus on achieving perfect technique through repetition. Almost always during a particularly intense session I would at some point feel a rush of endorphins and andrenaline. Flow, combined with Adrenaline, combined with endorphins (which help you maintain the focus and control that adrenaline tends to disrupt) literally made me feel as if I could punch through a brick wall with absolute perfect precision. The reality, although a little less impressive than that opiate induced fantasy, was superior striking power through enhanced strength, focus and technique.

    "Science wins again."

    Just talking about those experiences has put me in the zone right now. I think I'm going to go outside now, stare at the night sky, and bring some Flow to bear on the deepest mysteries of the universe.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2011
  20. birch Valued Senior Member

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    your post proves nothing either. just because it wasn't some radiant light or what you believed it to be has nothing to do with the discussion of energy or chi.

    this is eastern philosophy, not in the science subforum breaking it down into concrete terms.

    it's more about the power of the mind and how one can focus their will or energy. that is not supersition. it's a matter of how and who can do it as well as no one knows how it really works in all cases.
     
  21. Rav Valued Senior Member

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    That was an example that I related back to the discussion at hand.

    Surely you are not saying that eastern philosophy is somehow allergic to analysis?

    That's pretty much exactly the point I was making towards the end of my post, although we probably differ when it comes to the definition of terms.

    The "power" that people sometimes feel that gives them the ability to do things that they normally can't, or can't normally do as effectively, can be explained scientifically. There's no need to attribute it to some mysterious form of "energy". Why not embrace the true source of it for what it is? An astonishingly complex biological substrate that gives rise to consciousness and self-awareness (the brain) that drives a truly impressive biological vehicle (the body). It's no less amazing when you really think about and it has the added benefit of not conflicting with known science.
     
  22. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    Dude, you got nothing. The US Psi research was shown to have serious flaws in it's methods where it found positive results, and Randi still has his money.

    There really is no such thing. Sorry.
     
  23. phlogistician Banned Banned

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    I used to get migraines, and used similar techniques to manage the pain too. I got given some pills by doctor, but since I always threw up at the onset of the migraine, I used to throw the pills up before they could act.

    So I would lay in a dark room, with a damp cloth on my forehead, keep warm, and concentrate on my heartbeat and breathing, and focus away from the pain, on warmth, my pulse, and try and slow my pulse down, and fall asleep. Generally, when I woke several hours later, the migraine would have passed.

    Nothing mystic, just focus.
     

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