The Great Restroom Debate!

Bowser said:

Second, despite that they have normal, healthy bodies, they choose to morph themselves into something they are not. It's unhealthy. Taking hormones or opting for surgery is not a rational choice--doing so can introduce many problems down the road. By encouraging such actions I think people are doing more harm than good. It's a mental health issue, not a body issue. I feel for these people, but I don't see changing their body as being the fix.

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Wrong. You're so very, very, wrong.

These people choose to "morph" themselves into the gender they should have always been all along.

It is and always has been a physiological issue, not a psychological one.

Changing their bodies to they way they're supposed to be is totally a fix. They're correcting their proper gender.

Bigoted attitudes like yours are the only thing that's unhealthy, and doing harm to these people.

Bowser said:

Okay, I will jump back in and try to keep it within whatever limits are being enforced. First, the whole issue revolves around a self-image that a person holds in their head. Second, despite that they have normal, healthy bodies, they choose to morph themselves into something they are not. It's unhealthy. Taking hormones or opting for surgery is not a rational choice--doing so can introduce many problems down the road. By encouraging such actions I think people are doing more harm than good. It's a mental health issue, not a body issue. I feel for these people, but I don't see changing their body as being the fix.

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Spare us your phony concern for the wellbeing of trangender people. You abundantly demonstrated with your videos of cat people that you only see them as insane and needing of mental health therapy. This is just another transparent pretext for imposing your medieval notions on their lives. Now you're going to tell them it's oh so dangerous to their health? Give us a break here! You couldn't care less for them. For you they are secondary citizens who need to bow to the paranoid demands of the bible thumping right. You would have them regularly exposed to the punches of transphobic bigots in male restrooms. You don't give a damn about their wellbeing.

Daecon said:

Changing their bodies to they way they're supposed to be is totally a fix. They're correcting their proper gender.

Bigoted attitudes like yours are the only thing that's unhealthy, and doing harm to these people.

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We disagree. I think that the high rate of suicide is an indicator of how successful that attempt at morphing actually is. The video that I offered gave an insight into how difficult the process is and how dissatisfying it can be. You can take hormones, have surgical alterations, but you will always be the creature you were originally meant to be. Maybe in a hundred years biotech will find a way to alter the human body on a genetic level, and maybe that will give some people a level of satisfaction, but until that day, every attempt will be just that, an attempt.

I would think it better to fix the seat of perception than play hell on the body. Taking hormones only fights the natural balance of the body. Surgical alteration only mutilate the body. It's all terribly dangerous in the long run, sometimes leaving no option for a return to the original design.

I feel for these people, really.

Magical Realist said:

Spare us your phony concern for the wellbeing of trangender people. You abundantly demonstrated with your videos of cat people that you only see them as insane and needing of mental health therapy. This is just another transparent pretext for imposing your medieval notions on their lives. Now you're going to tell them it's oh so dangerous to their health? Give us a break here! You couldn't care less for them. For you they are secondary citizens who need to bow to the paranoid demands of the bible thumping right. You would have them regularly exposed to the punches of transphobic bigots in male restrooms. You don't give a damn about their wellbeing.

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I impose nothing on nobody. The choice is and always will be theirs. My opinion might differ from your own, and I might recognize that it's terribly unhealthy to mess with your body in such a degree that you're taking hormones or having surgery.

Again, where the restroom issue is concerned, I would leave it to the women to decide.

No. The high rate of suicide is an indicator of how harmful YOUR ATTITUDE is.

I impose nothing on nobody. The choice is and always will be theirs. My opinion might differ from your own, and I might recognize that it's terribly unhealthy to mess with your body in such a degree that you're taking hormones or having surgery.

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Yes you are. You are imposing your opinion that they are only they're birth gender. And you are imposing segregation of them in restrooms in accord with that opinion thru an unenforceable law. It really is pathetic and is none of your business at all. Don't you have enough things goin on in your own life to not have to stick your nose into other people's business?

Say I believe I have seven fingers in each hand. But, I only have five on each hand; born with five fingers on each hand. Should you ignore what your eye sees and your common sense know to real, to appease my fantasy and not hurt my feelings? Should PC call you a hater if you don't comply and ignore what your eyes see?

Say I wear a special glove that has seven fingers, so when I claim to have seven fingers, it is easier for more people to assume I am telling the truth in terms of reality. Say, a few very observant science people, still notice I have five fingers and they mention this, should the larger group of fooled people gang up on them, and force them to dumb down to appease feelings?

Say I save my money and get a doctor to sew on two extra fingers on each hand so now I have seven, like I always believed. I was right all along. People can see these fingers are different from the rest. They also know this was done surgically. Should anyone who is aware of this truth be called a hater if they bring it up?

The question is, is the above PC scenario really a way to bully, all the smart people, so the morons can rule? If the morons are conditioned to believe, anything anyone fantasizes, can be real, would the morons be easier to control and lie too?

The entire transgender issue is a social experiment to see if it is possible to suppress intelligence in favor of morons. This test will continue to escalate to see just how far one can lead morons down the rabbit hole. This will also show just how far the morons will go, to force even smart common sense people down the hole.

wellwisher said:

Say I believe I have seven fingers in each hand. But, I only have five on each hand; born with five fingers on each hand. Should you ignore what your eye sees and your common sense know to real, to appease my fantasy and not hurt my feelings? Should PC call you a hater if you don't comply and ignore what your eyes see?

Say I wear a special glove that has seven fingers, so when I claim to have seven fingers, it is easier for more people to assume I am telling the truth in terms of reality. Say, a few very observant science people, still notice I have five fingers and they mention this, should the larger group of fooled people gang up on them, and force them to dumb down to appease feelings?

Say I save my money and get a doctor to sew on two extra fingers on each hand so now I have seven, like I always believed. I was right all along. People can see these fingers are different from the rest. They also know this was done surgically. Should anyone who is aware of this truth be called a hater if they bring it up?

The question is, is the above PC scenario really a way to bully, all the smart people, so the morons can rule? If the morons are conditioned to believe, anything anyone fantasizes, can be real, would the morons be easier to control and lie too?

The entire transgender issue is a social experiment to see if it is possible to suppress intelligence in favor of morons. This test will continue to escalate to see just how far one can lead morons down the rabbit hole. This will also show just how far the morons will go, to force even smart common sense people down the hole.

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quit being such a bigot

Bowser said:

We disagree. I think that the high rate of suicide is an indicator of how successful that attempt at morphing actually is. The video that I offered gave an insight into how difficult the process is and how dissatisfying it can be. You can take hormones, have surgical alterations, but you will always be the creature you were originally meant to be. Maybe in a hundred years biotech will find a way to alter the human body on a genetic level, and maybe that will give some people a level of satisfaction, but until that day, every attempt will be just that, an attempt.

I would think it better to fix the seat of perception than play hell on the body. Taking hormones only fights the natural balance of the body. Surgical alteration only mutilate the body. It's all terribly dangerous in the long run, sometimes leaving no option for a return to the original design.

I feel for these people, really.

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Well, let's get some stats: The Transgender Community by the Numbers

The number of transgendered Americans: 700,000
The number of companies in America with healthcare for trangendered humans: 207
The percent of transgendered who attempt suicide: 41%

Why? Why such a high number? Was it due to transitioning? No. The empirical evidence suggests that 41% of transgender participants (2,644 out of 6,450) had attempted to take their own lives due to sexual assault (the largest cause), followed by physical assault, then harassment in school, and finally job loss due to bias. Only 207 businesses offer healthcare. I mean, WTF. That's insane.

As a matter of fact, many transgendered people feel mentally relieved to have physically altered their bodies to align with their perceived sexual identity. However, that's really up to them, as individuals - what they decide. What we as individuals can do, is treat them as humans and respect their decisions, particularly given their plight.
IOWs, we should be supportive, of their choice. Just as one would be to any other human being.

It's really not that hard.
Treat people as people.
Done and done.

Say I believe I have seven fingers in each hand. But, I only have five on each hand; born with five fingers on each hand. Should you ignore what your eye sees and your common sense know to real, to appease my fantasy and not hurt my feelings? Should PC call you a hater if you don't comply and ignore what your eyes see?

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You're grossly simplifying one's gender identity down to matter of finger number? Really? Do you think we learn our gender just by looking at own bodies? No..it is a matter of brain structure and the kind of brain we were born with. And when you are a male born with a female brain, or vice versa, then gender identity takes the form of NOT identifying with your body's gender. So you dress differently. And you wear make up. And you cultivate a walk and a way of speaking. And then maybe you get hormone therapy and surgery. And all of this fits you as comfortably as an old jacket. It matches who you already identify as-- with the person that has been sadly looking out thru your own eyes for your whole life. More power to them!

And so it begins...


Women can now be harassed by male and female police officers for using the women's bathroom because they don't look 'female' enough.

'Merica, FUCK YEAH!!

I try to wrap my head around the sheer lunacy of this story and this issue in general, but really, aside from a string of swear words that come to mind, it is literally impossible to understand the sheer stupidity and lunacy of people who are so bigoted that they believe this sort of absolute excrement is acceptable.

The whole restroom debate currently waging in the US is not just transphobic and homophobic. It is also deeply and inherently sexist. Because as this demonstrates, women must now prove that they are women to be allowed to use the restroom.

Questions had been raised about how the bathroom laws would be enforced.

Here is an example.

If you don't look like a woman, you can be harassed and the police can forcibly remove you. Does this mean that women with short hair and who aren't wearing obviously feminine clothing, have to be able to prove their sex to police officers when they use the restroom? This is what the right in the US has come to? Women now have to be able to show their ID to be allowed to pee in a public restroom?

I would like to know how they now plan to move forward in the States where the bathroom laws have come into effect when transgender men are now forced to use the women's room because they happened to be born with a vagina? Because if women can be forcibly removed for not looking 'womanly' enough, what happens to transgender men who have beards, etc, and who are anatomically male, but are forced to used the women's restroom because they were born with a vagina?

Perverts on Patrol

Bells said:

Because if women can be forcibly removed for not looking 'womanly' enough, what happens to transgender men who have beards, etc, and who are anatomically male, but are forced to used the women's restroom because they were born with a vagina?

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The video, as I understand it, actually predates the North Carolina law; Walter Enenkel↱ at Daily Kos points to a Deecember Facebook post↱, using the word "security" instead of "police".

In the end, it's a small detail. This sort of chaos is, in fact, the point. This is the antisocial side of conservatism showing through. Even if the law can't stand under the U.S. Constitution, which is the overwhelmingly prevailing potential, they still get to cause people harm in the meantime.

It's kind of sad; when we stop and think of people like Mat Staver of Liberty Counsel, his wife Anita―who apparently can't bring herself to use a public restroom without carrying a gun―we start to get a weird picture of society. When I was young, my conservative father warned be about lawyers like Mr. Staver, except they were all supposed to be evil liberals. This keeps happening. In that old, Cold War-era narrative of American patriotism (conservatives) and communist betrayers (liberals), we were the ones expected to be arresting you for wearing the wrong clothes (George W. Bush), or having a poster on the wall we didn't like (George W. Bush). And we were the ones who were supposed to explode the debt (George W. Bush), and wreck the economy (Wall Street). We're also the ones who were supposed to blithely defend and promote lawlessness (Mat Staver, Republican establishment, movement conservatives, evangelical Christian conservatives).

This keeps happening. Everything American conservatives taught me, in youth, to fear of liberalism keeps coming true, except by conservative hands.

And, yes, it's sad because they're not all evil. But it's a tragic notion, so many people caught up in a lie. Then again, this is driven by Christians, a group of people that believe invisible spirits run the world, so mass delusion is hardly anything new to them.

But in the end, it's like everything else in the purity cult: Any excuse to focus on people's genitals. Any excuse to think about perversity.

It might behoove them―and would help the rest of us in society greatly―to go out and fashion satisfactory sex lives for themselves instead of forcefully insisting they should be included in other people's.

It's the same obsession that drove closeteer Ted Haggard's meth-fueled fall from grace; it's the same obsession that brought the secret homosexual George Rekers to hire a rentboy. It's the same obsession that inspired Bob Allen to troll for men and sell himself in a public park restroom. It's the same obsession that made John La Tour think it was a good idea to threaten a woman with sexual assault, ostensibly to prove his manhood, while asking her to dance.

Any excuse to whip it out.

No, seriously, these people learn how to fuck and enjoy themselves while they do, and this stupidity they demand the rest of society endure pretty much goes away.

Godforsaken perverts.
____________________

Notes:

Einenkel, Walter. "Woman kicked out of bathroom because she looks like a man and doesn't have ID". Daily Kos. 28 April 2016. DailyKos.com. 29 April 2016.

Urban Leak. "Security FORCES Gay Female Out Of Bathroom". Facebook. 19 December 2015. Facebook.com. 29 April 2016. http://bit.ly/1WvlD92

"
Seattle Parks and Recreation is facing a first-of-a-kind challenge to gender bathroom rules. A man undressed in a women’s locker room, citing a new state rule that allows people to choose a bathroom based on gender identit
It was a busy time at Evans Pool around 5:30pm Monday February 8. The pool was open for lap swim. According to Seattle Parks and Recreation, a man wearing board shorts entered the women’s locker room and took off his shirt. Women alerted staff, who told the man to leave, but he said “the law has changed and I have a right to be here.

A few issues, but here’s the best part…

I think this law will eventually be reversed. The economic costs will be huge.

wellwisher said:

Say I believe I have seven fingers in each hand. But, I only have five on each hand; born with five fingers on each hand. Should you ignore what your eye sees and your common sense know to real, to appease my fantasy and not hurt my feelings? Should PC call you a hater if you don't comply and ignore what your eyes see?

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The number of fingers you actually have is not dependent on what you believe. Your gender very much depends on what you believe.

Probably you're confused about the difference between sex and gender.

Say I save my money and get a doctor to sew on two extra fingers on each hand so now I have seven, like I always believed. I was right all along. People can see these fingers are different from the rest. They also know this was done surgically. Should anyone who is aware of this truth be called a hater if they bring it up?

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That would depend very much on the context in which they were bringing it up, would it not? If they were aiming to harass you or negatively discriminate against you, then they could well be a hater. What do you think?

The question is, is the above PC scenario really a way to bully, all the smart people, so the morons can rule?

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What's smart about hating what you don't understand?

The entire transgender issue is a social experiment to see if it is possible to suppress intelligence in favor of morons.

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Ah. I see. You are a bigot.

Please keep it to yourself in future.

James R said:

Ah. I see. You are a bigot.

Please keep it to yourself in future.

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So you want to suppress someone's viewpoint just because you say they are a bigot? Doesn't that make you about the same because you now want to control what others think and want to not allow them to speak. You are not as understanding as I once thought. By not allowing others to have their say isn't a very good way to show what freedom really means. You would rather have those who are politically correct to do as they want and not allow for the opposing viewpoints to be heard.

cosmictraveler said:

So you want to suppress someone's viewpoint just because you say they are a bigot? Doesn't that make you about the same because you now want to control what others think and want to not allow them to speak. You are not as understanding as I once thought. By not allowing others to have their say isn't a very good way to show what freedom really means. You would rather have those who are politically correct to do as they want and not allow for the opposing viewpoints to be heard.

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'Allowing for opposing viewpoints' is not carte blanche to freely slam something with derogatory slurs.

Declaring the transgender issue to be one of intelligent versus moronic people is not only bigoted, it is destructive to dialogue. If you have passed judgment on the issue, you are essentially acknowledging that it is a black & white issue and don't really have much more to contribute to a constructive discussion about it.

DaveC426913 said:

'Allowing for opposing viewpoints' is not carte blanche to freely slam something with derogatory slurs.

Declaring the transgender issue to be one of intelligent versus moronic people is not only bigoted, it is destructive to dialogue. If you have passed judgment on the issue, you are essentially acknowledging that it is a black & white issue and don't really have much more to contribute to a constructive discussion about it.

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If you will read any of my posts I've never called anyone names or ridiculed them. When others want to express themselves in an "unpolitical" way I do not object for they have the right to say their opinions just as the LGBT has a right to say what it is they want.

Doesn't that make you about the same because you now want to control what others think and want to not allow them to speak.

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There's nothing like a passing a state law to force people to conform your own personal point of view when it comes to controlling what other's think and not allowing them to speak.

Freedom of expression doesn't mean that hate speech should be tolerated.