Our sun's 11-year cycle

matthew809

matthew809

Registered Senior Member
Could the 11-year solar cycle be caused by a force outside of our solar system, and not from the sun itself?

In fact, doesn't such an idea make more intuitive sense? The sun seems to be a fiery ball of chaotic fury, not something that could sustain such a long and stable cycle all by itself. I think it must have outside help.

The pattern seems typical of a wave.
 
matthew809 said:
Could the 11-year solar cycle be caused by a force outside of our solar system, and not from the sun itself?
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No.

In fact, doesn't such an idea make more intuitive sense?
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No. It makes no sense. You are invoking a completely unknown mechanism to counter your (and to a much lesser extent, science's) ignorance. Appeal to ridicule / argument from ignorance makes for a good logical fallacy. That is all you are doing here is making an argument from ignorance.

Science is just beginning to make sense of what goes on inside the Sun. Magnetohydrodynamics and dynamo theory are very new sciences, so demanding that they have all the answers right now is more than a bit naive.
 
matthew809 said:
Could the 11-year solar cycle be caused by a force outside of our solar system, and not from the sun itself?

In fact, doesn't such an idea make more intuitive sense? The sun seems to be a fiery ball of chaotic fury, not something that could sustain such a long and stable cycle all by itself. I think it must have outside help.

The pattern seems typical of a wave.
Click to expand...

What force do you think could be affecting it and where does that force come from? From all observations that have been done so far astronomers say that the sun itself has its own 11 years cycle that it alone continues along with so far.
 
D H said:
...You are invoking a completely unknown mechanism to counter your... ignorance...
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Waves are an unknown mechanism?

cosmictraveler said:
What force do you think could be affecting it and where does that force come from?
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A logical guess might be some sort of waves radiating from the galactic center. These waves could be like EM waves but of a much longer wavelength(proportional to the duration of the solar cycle). Could the spiraled, rippled shape of our galaxy be indicative of these emanating waves?

Why does this explanation of a galactic force seem unreasonable? Why does mainstream science seem dead set against considering outside influences for the sun's behavior? After all, the tides are affected by the moon, the moon by the earth, the earth by the sun, the sun by the... galactic center.
 
matthew809 said:
Could the 11-year solar cycle be caused by a force outside of our solar system, and not from the sun itself?

In fact, doesn't such an idea make more intuitive sense? The sun seems to be a fiery ball of chaotic fury, not something that could sustain such a long and stable cycle all by itself. I think it must have outside help.

The pattern seems typical of a wave.
Click to expand...

I think you underestimate the SIZE of the Sun and how long it takes for processes to cycle to such depths and heights. For example, given the distance from the depths up to the atmosphere and the fact that photons are absorbed and re-emitted on the way, it takes years for light that originates near the core to escape to space.
 
Read-Only said:
I think you underestimate the SIZE of the Sun and how long it takes for processes to cycle to such depths and heights. For example, given the distance from the depths up to the atmosphere and the fact that photons are absorbed and re-emitted on the way, it takes years for light that originates near the core to escape to space.
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But that's just one theory.

The weird thing is that conventional science seems to have ruled out the possibility of an outside influence, despite the fact that an outside influence is very likely. Science hasn't even fully developed the "inside" theory but is already touting it as the only possible explanation.

Reminds me of the global warming small mindedness of mainstream science. Global warming is a purely "inside" mechanism according to consensus.

Not to say the mainstream consensus is wrong. But is it really in science's best interest to rule things out from the start? Isn't science supposed to exhaustively pursue all avenues, rather then spend all it's time defending the current popular theories?
 
matthew809 said:
Waves are an unknown mechanism?
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Waves of what? The Astronomy, Exobiology, and Cosmology section of sciforums.com is not the place for non-scientific bull excrement. Stop tossing it around.

A logical guess might be some sort of waves radiating from the galactic center. These waves could be like EM waves but of a much longer wavelength(proportional to the duration of the solar cycle). Could the spiraled, rippled shape of our galaxy be indicative of these emanating waves?
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No. This is just more bull excrement.

If this were the case, then why do starspot cycles on other stars exhibit different frequencies and rather different behaviors than does the sunspot cycle on our Sun?
 
matthew809 said:
Because there's a lot of stuff out there beyond the sun. Some of this stuff may touch the sun in not so obvious ways.

Why would a person assume otherwise?
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You are making a claim. You need to cite a source in support of it. It isn't up to everyone else to prove you wrong.
 
D H said:
Waves of what? The Astronomy, Exobiology, and Cosmology section of sciforums.com is not the place for non-scientific bull excrement. Stop tossing it around.
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Am I wrong for wanting to discuss my ideas with intelligent people?

But to answer your question... maybe density waves in the "fabric" of space.


D H said:
If this were the case, then why do starspot cycles on other stars exhibit different frequencies and rather different behaviors than does the sunspot cycle on our Sun?
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That's a good point.
 
matthew809 said:
Waves are an unknown mechanism?



A logical guess might be some sort of waves radiating from the galactic center. These waves could be like EM waves but of a much longer wavelength(proportional to the duration of the solar cycle). Could the spiraled, rippled shape of our galaxy be indicative of these emanating waves?

Why does this explanation of a galactic force seem unreasonable? Why does mainstream science seem dead set against considering outside influences for the sun's behavior? After all, the tides are affected by the moon, the moon by the earth, the earth by the sun, the sun by the... galactic center.
Click to expand...

Such "waves" have not yet been found by any astronomer that I have read about. That doesn't mean there aren't "waves" of something out in space but there's none as yet that can be identified that affect the 11 year sun cycle. The sun alone does this according to all data that has been collected over hundreds of years of observation so your idea cannot be substantiated as yet by anyone and even according to you it is only atheory that might be happening and you have nothing to provide us with any proof as well.
 
dbnp48 said:
You are making a claim. You need to cite a source in support of it. It isn't up to everyone else to prove you wrong.
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It was just an idea for discussion, not a claim. Why would I need to cite a source?

I am not a scientist in the least. I am not attempting to push a theory here.
I am just asking questions and I was hoping for intelligent answers. Please go back and re-read my posts. Notice the liberal use of question marks on my part. Notice the use of such words as "could", "seems", "might", "guess", "maybe"...

cosmictraveler said:
...The sun alone does this according to all data that has been collected over hundreds of years of observation...
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What data has been collected from the inside of the sun that would lead to the conclusion of an inside mechanism for the 11-year cycle?
 
Read-Only said:
I think you underestimate the SIZE of the Sun and how long it takes for processes to cycle to such depths and heights. For example, given the distance from the depths up to the atmosphere and the fact that photons are absorbed and re-emitted on the way, it takes years for light that originates near the core to escape to space.
Click to expand...

I think I understand your concept here- that the extreme radius of the sun acts as a sort of track to allow for the extreme wavelengths of the solar cycle. These "processes" could be said to travel this track in a stable manner and at a constant speed.

Is this right?
 
matthew809 said:
What data has been collected from the inside of the sun that would lead to the conclusion of an inside mechanism for the 11-year cycle?
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The Solar Dynamics Observatory, launched last February, is doing just this. Just as an ultrasound lets medical doctors image a fetus with nary a sensor inside the mother, the sound and seismic waves observed on the surface of the Sun give us a picture of what is going on inside the Sun.
 
D H said:
...the sound and seismic waves observed on the surface of the Sun give us a picture of what is going on inside the Sun.
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How accurate is the picture?

Has a computer generated animation been generated with the help of these helioseismic readings, which show the inner mechanics of the sun including the 11-year cycle of sunspots?

I haven't been able to find such a video.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vSSs7-O5IqY

That said, youtube is the last place you should look for info about science. Scientists generally don't work by video.

The vehicle has only been in space for eleven months. It takes longer than that to make sense of what the instruments have gathered, and then the first reports will be in scientific journals. The "Heliophysics for Dummies" video and book will take a while longer to come out.

You can use the web to find out a lot more. Don't rely on us to do your searching for you! Some keywords to help you in your own search.
- Heliophysics
- Magnetohydrodynamics
- Dynamo theory
- Helioseismic and Magnetic Imager
 
Variable stars are very common in the universe. The Sun is just one more.
 
As others have rightly said, variable stars are common in the universe. The fact the Sun is a hot ball of chaotic gas makes it more plausible things like the cycles in sunspot activity originate in the Sun. While the dynamics of these phenomena are not completely understood, there are now many excellent observatories in space and on the ground that observe the Sun; science is making a lot of progress in understanding without needing to appeal to things unknown to science.
 
matthew809 said:
It was just an idea for discussion, not a claim. Why would I need to cite a source?
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The way in which you presented the idea made it seem as if you believed this to be the case. It had the appearance of yet another 'all you scientists are wrong, because you are too narrow minded and won't open your eyes to different possibilities'.
 
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