Rape, Abortion, and "Personhood"

Please do not swear at me seagypsy.

I have addressed you politely in this thread so please keep your abuse out of it.

And I was discussing this with Neverfly. I am sure he is able to defend himself without your abusive and rude tirade.

I would also strongly suggest you do not accuse me of being a liar without actual proof. If you are unable to discuss this in a calm manner, I would suggest you leave this discussion until you calm down and are able to discuss it in a calm manner.

As to my authority about what to call a foetus.. and what rights I have over my womb..

I have every single authority to call it a foetus, just as you have every single authority to not call it a foetus.

I have every single authority over my body just as you have absolutely no authority over my body or whether I get an abortion or not. Just as I and every single other human being on this planet should not have any authority over your body or what you do with your body or whether you decide to get an abortion or not.

*Snort*

I believe you are very much mistaken, seagypsy.

[HR][/HR]

Because I made that choice.

I could just have easily have decided to terminate right at the start of the pregnancy if I so chose to.

No one else has the right to make that choice for me at any given time or point.

For example, when I was 16 weeks pregnant with my first born, I had a massive hemorrhage. And this is going to be graphic, so if you are squeamish, best to not read from this point on.. As in massive. I was alone at home that evening and one minute I was fine and the next I had blood gushing down my legs and felt something coming out. The amount of blood was, well, insane. Suffice to say that by the time the paramedics arrived, I had soaked through a beach towel to the point where it was dripping down from that towel. Since I felt something between my legs, I didn't hold out much hope by that point. We got to the hospital and I was rushed through and a flurry of doctors rushed in and I was literally bleeding like there was an open tap going. They could not stop it. And I felt this thing coming out and I said, it's coming out and they took it away for testing.

Then to stop the bleeding, the doctors said to me they were going to rush me into surgery. And I refused.

I made the choice to not have that surgery.

Instead, I requested an ultrasound to confirm an actual miscarriage.

They pushed and I pushed back with my choice.

Not because 'it was my son'. But because it was my body and there was no way in hell anyone was going to operate on me until I was 100% sure.

So I exercised my choice.

When my second son was born, due to a medical malpractice which led to a low lying placenta not being diagnosed (the doctor refused to look at the ultrasound as she was late for a flight), I nearly bled out when the placenta broke in two when I started to labour after being induced. When I was rushed down and going into shock for the blood loss, I asked the doctor who was about to save the both of us (I did not know that at that point) to save my son. He told me no and that I was going to be the priority.

And I cannot begin to describe to you the feeling of helplessness and anger having my control taken away from me in that fashion by someone else.

It is about choice and it is about autonomy and respecting the rights of women and what rights they have over their own bodies.

Now certainly, not everyone will agree with it. This is a highly contentious and heated issue.

But at its core, it is about choice. And I really don't think anyone else should have a say or rights over my body other than me, just as I don't think anyone should have rights over your body except for you.

And personally speaking, I find laws which restrict women's access to reproductive health care, to the point where women are being charged with murder for a miscarriage is such dangerous territory simply because women will now be afraid to turn to their health providers when they most need it (during pregnancy) just in case something goes wrong and they can be accused of murder.

I understand the desire to 'save the life'. Believe me I do. But this debate is about respecting women and their rights to choose as well and when we get to the point where we are now, then all respect for women as individuals goes out the window and they end up being seen as mere incubators (such as the insane laws being proposed in Georgia for example).. And then we have ridiculous situations where women who are miscarrying or are at risk of death, being refused care or terminations..

I am not saying this to get in your face or whatever. I am just explaining to you how I personally feel about this debate and issue.

 

You do realise that was sarcasm and that my womb cannot type or speak, right?

Hell, I lost my womb to cancer not that long ago, so it was a sarcastic figure of speech.

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So calm down seagypsy. Please.

 

Is that still happening?

Hmm...

 

I am going with a wild assumption that does not mean "lots of love"..

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Not at all Neverfly.

I had, what you could call, an epiphany on Wednesday as they changed my plans for my surgery when it became clear that if they went as originally intended I would have bled out on the table and died, that it's just not worth it.

The comment from my womb was a joke. In the sense that 'my womb would tell you to fuck off if you felt you had any rights to it' kind of thing.. get it now?

I mean if my womb could speak, I would not be sitting here as it would mean that my womb had somehow managed to find its way back to my house and had taken control of my computer and was typing. Not something I'd want to consider.

Nope. Just as you can't change the fact that a woman should have rights over her own body, regardless. And any law that denies women their basic and fundamental human rights is, well, bad in my opinion.

Again, if I make a mod note or post as a mod, I change the colour of my text to purple. I have made this clear many many times now.

I asked her that question as in 'who do you think you're speaking to?' in the sense that I am an adult just as she is an adult..

Again, accusing someone of lying when there is no proof is a serious accusation. And since it seems being polite and joking is offensive to you, I shall keep it on the straight and narrow and I will expect you to do the same, and the same applies to Seagypsy. Aside from that joke there from my womb (which cannot speak by the way), I have not sworn at you, even after you decided to use my son in this debate. I have treated you and her with extreme politeness and respect and I ask the same in return. Thank you.

Sorry Neverfly, not my sub-forum so Tiassa or one of the supermods or admin will have to release it. I wasn't aware it was still happening while I was away.

 

Yes I have.

I have actually been enjoying my debate with Neverfly. Ie, I was discussing this with him and not you, so how you can claim that I have been rude to you in discussing this with him is, well, beyond me. The only times I have addressed you is when you have decided to launch abusive tirades in my direction while I have been discussing this with Neverfly.

*Raises eyebrows*

Can you please show me exactly where I have made such a claim, seagypsy?

Thank you.

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When someone makes arguments that religious pro-life supporters make, it is a fair assumption that he may be somewhat religious or spiritual in that sense.

Seagypsy, believe it or not, but I am actually enjoying debating with Neverfly in that we aren't actually fighting but talking and debating. I am telling him how I personally feel about this issue and vice versa.

So can I ask, why are you trying to flame me in this fashion? Are you trying to get a response of some kind?

Please stop.

I sometimes snort when I chuckle.

It's a terrible trait. It's really bad when it happens while I am eating or drinking.

Or are you attempting to intimate that I am snorting drugs?

Please stop.

 

It didn't go as expected and it was long and I have a 10 week or so of a painful recovery ahead of me and ongoing treatment, again. I'm just glad to be home and able to hug my children again.

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They allowed me to return home under strict 'stay in bed' and 'don't do anything' instructions.

And I apologise if my joke offended you. It was not meant that way. Nor was I threatening seagypsy with anything. So if that is how it was taken, my apologies.

I mean I'd be impressed if my womb did something like that though.. just saying..

Anywho, moving on..

Look this debate is an emotive one. And it is very easy to get lost in it.

One of the biggest things I've found with it is that language is very important and when the language becomes so black and white as to 'life begins at the moment of conception' in legislation, then such legislation is fraught with danger and the result will be the loss of basic and fundamental human rights of women. And in this election cycle, we are seeing that kind of language and in legislation being proposed and enacted in some States in the US. And this is very dangerous territory to be heading into and if it continues, we will probably see an erosion of basic human rights where women are concerned and also the loss of reproductive health care for women. And that is very dangerous, for obvious reasons.

 

No you shouldn't have.

Not at all. Can you show where I have made such a claim?

Such a claim was made, but not by me. See below.

By saying that his argument is religious?

One that he has also lobbed at me and others in this thread? For example, see here: Post #31.

And speaking of character assassination, Neverfly even went so far as to accuse Tiassa and I (both of us are atheists) of apparently disregarding the lives of "young children" in our supposed zeal to be anti-conservative and anti-religion (ie atheists)..

Which is blatantly false.

Seagypsy, the only time I have addressed you in this discussion is when you have decided to come after me for something I have said to a completely different person. You have accused me of being a "fucking liar", and a few other choice terms and insinuated a few things as well about me, not to mention decided to falsely accuse me of using my real life problems as an out in this debate, when I have done no such thing. I have asked you from the start of your tirade and attacks against me, to stop.

Funny, isn't it..

It's like when I call my parents and both of them get on the phone and my father speaks to my mother via the phone..

Mmmm hmmm..

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It was a joke.

Really..

Okay, firstly, I say "exercise choice" and you return with "No one has the right to tell me I cannot kill a child".. And then you claim that we are somehow on the same side in this debate?

Secondly, when I debate you, I debate you, not seagypsy.

I do not treat you two as a single entity.

The language you use in this debate is not one 'from my side'. For example, when you say to me that in my apparent anti-religious and anti-conservative zeal that I am apparently disregarding the lives of young children, that is not 'from my side' or on my side. It is insulting, demeaning and also libelous. Because I have spent the better part of my adult life fighting for the lives of young children, literally. So I find it deeply insulting to be told that I apparently disregard the lives of young children because I happen to be pro-choice.

Your argument is religious though in that it follows what religious pro-lifer's say in these debates. That is what I meant.

I mean you believe that my pro-choice argument is just as religious...

 

So when do you think it becomes murder?

The point of conception?

You claimed earlier that you can easily kill man or animal if you have to survive. Do you think women who have abortions for health reasons are murderers? Or is there an exception to that rule? Does she become a murder of a "young child" when the second trimester hits?

But you believe that you are on my side in this debate, correct?

You believe that a woman who has an abortion in the first trimester should be allowed to do so. So she isn't a murderer then? When do you think "the child" should start to exist for the mother, Neverfly? In your opinion?

Earlier in this thread, you designated an embryo as a "young child", skipping many levels of development along the way, just for that emotive 'you support the murder of young children' argument... So when do you think a woman should lose her rights to her body during pregnancy? What escape clauses would you allow women?

Pretty much.

It has no rights. In Australia, if a woman's life becomes threatened by her pregnancy regardless of where she is during that pregnancy, that "child" no longer counts. To put it into some perspective for you, I was in labour and I was told, to my face that my "child" did not count. Even though I had made that choice to save it above my own life.

If that is what you wish to believe, so be it. I respectfully disagree that your argument has been humane or "realist". Nor do I believe that you weren't 'sugar coating' when you declared embryos and foetus' as "young children".

Well the debate in the US at present in regards to this area is about religious beliefs and laws being enacted in various States are based solely on the religious beliefs of those in power.