Rape, Abortion, and "Personhood"

Discussion in 'Ethics, Morality, & Justice' started by Tiassa, Nov 1, 2012.


Do I support this proposition?

Poll closed Nov 1, 2013.
  1. Anti-abortion: Yes

    0 vote(s)
  2. Anti-abortion: No

    0 vote(s)
  3. Pro-choice: Yes

  4. Pro-choice: No

  5. Other (Please explain below)

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  1. Bells Staff Member

    Please do not swear at me seagypsy.

    I have addressed you politely in this thread so please keep your abuse out of it.

    And I was discussing this with Neverfly. I am sure he is able to defend himself without your abusive and rude tirade.

    I would also strongly suggest you do not accuse me of being a liar without actual proof. If you are unable to discuss this in a calm manner, I would suggest you leave this discussion until you calm down and are able to discuss it in a calm manner.

    As to my authority about what to call a foetus.. and what rights I have over my womb..

    I have every single authority to call it a foetus, just as you have every single authority to not call it a foetus.

    I have every single authority over my body just as you have absolutely no authority over my body or whether I get an abortion or not. Just as I and every single other human being on this planet should not have any authority over your body or what you do with your body or whether you decide to get an abortion or not.


    I believe you are very much mistaken, seagypsy.


    Because I made that choice.

    I could just have easily have decided to terminate right at the start of the pregnancy if I so chose to.

    No one else has the right to make that choice for me at any given time or point.

    For example, when I was 16 weeks pregnant with my first born, I had a massive hemorrhage. And this is going to be graphic, so if you are squeamish, best to not read from this point on.. As in massive. I was alone at home that evening and one minute I was fine and the next I had blood gushing down my legs and felt something coming out. The amount of blood was, well, insane. Suffice to say that by the time the paramedics arrived, I had soaked through a beach towel to the point where it was dripping down from that towel. Since I felt something between my legs, I didn't hold out much hope by that point. We got to the hospital and I was rushed through and a flurry of doctors rushed in and I was literally bleeding like there was an open tap going. They could not stop it. And I felt this thing coming out and I said, it's coming out and they took it away for testing.

    Then to stop the bleeding, the doctors said to me they were going to rush me into surgery. And I refused.

    I made the choice to not have that surgery.

    Instead, I requested an ultrasound to confirm an actual miscarriage.

    They pushed and I pushed back with my choice.

    Not because 'it was my son'. But because it was my body and there was no way in hell anyone was going to operate on me until I was 100% sure.

    So I exercised my choice.

    When my second son was born, due to a medical malpractice which led to a low lying placenta not being diagnosed (the doctor refused to look at the ultrasound as she was late for a flight), I nearly bled out when the placenta broke in two when I started to labour after being induced. When I was rushed down and going into shock for the blood loss, I asked the doctor who was about to save the both of us (I did not know that at that point) to save my son. He told me no and that I was going to be the priority.

    And I cannot begin to describe to you the feeling of helplessness and anger having my control taken away from me in that fashion by someone else.

    It is about choice and it is about autonomy and respecting the rights of women and what rights they have over their own bodies.

    Now certainly, not everyone will agree with it. This is a highly contentious and heated issue.

    But at its core, it is about choice. And I really don't think anyone else should have a say or rights over my body other than me, just as I don't think anyone should have rights over your body except for you.

    And personally speaking, I find laws which restrict women's access to reproductive health care, to the point where women are being charged with murder for a miscarriage is such dangerous territory simply because women will now be afraid to turn to their health providers when they most need it (during pregnancy) just in case something goes wrong and they can be accused of murder.

    I understand the desire to 'save the life'. Believe me I do. But this debate is about respecting women and their rights to choose as well and when we get to the point where we are now, then all respect for women as individuals goes out the window and they end up being seen as mere incubators (such as the insane laws being proposed in Georgia for example).. And then we have ridiculous situations where women who are miscarrying or are at risk of death, being refused care or terminations..

    I am not saying this to get in your face or whatever. I am just explaining to you how I personally feel about this debate and issue.
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  3. Bells Staff Member

    You do realise that was sarcasm and that my womb cannot type or speak, right?

    Hell, I lost my womb to cancer not that long ago, so it was a sarcastic figure of speech.

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    So calm down seagypsy. Please.
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  5. Bells Staff Member

    Is that still happening?

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  7. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Your veil is a bit too thin, me thinks.
    This goes for you, as well. Telling me to "Fuck off" is neither polite nor does it demonstrate being calm and rational. As my rebuttal is in the Mod Queue for approval, I can stand a break to calm down. I think we all have MORE than made our points for now...
    Can't change what it is from a human being to a lump of coal just by how you name it...
    No, she wasn't. Your intent was very clear and lying your way out of it after the fact won't help.
    It happens when you lie, claim not to lie and tell people to fuck off. What did you expect to happen as a result of your poor behavior?
    It had no links. Just a little frustrating is all. If you can't release it, maybe Tiassa will when he has a chance. Will be nice when that glitch is fixed.
  8. seagypsy Banned Banned

    No. No you haven't.

    you poor thing, what's the matter? Can't handle it? Oh poor Bells has had a hard life so no one should hold her accountable for her bad behavior. After all anyone who has had a hard life should be allowed to act as badly as they want, After all they are damaged goods and are no longer capable of behaving in a civilized manner.

    The proof is in the thread, as you always say, your posts will testify to it. You are putting words in his mouth and claiming he is religious even. Those are lies. Proof given.

    Absolutely, and other people have the authority to disagree with you. Get over it. And who is forcing YOU to carry a child? NOT A SINGLE PERSON ON THIS THREAD.

    So what exactly are you snorting? At least we know you are snorting. Can't say I am not wondering what affect your snorting has on your posting style.
  9. Bells Staff Member

    I am going with a wild assumption that does not mean "lots of love"..

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    Not at all Neverfly.

    I had, what you could call, an epiphany on Wednesday as they changed my plans for my surgery when it became clear that if they went as originally intended I would have bled out on the table and died, that it's just not worth it.

    The comment from my womb was a joke. In the sense that 'my womb would tell you to fuck off if you felt you had any rights to it' kind of thing.. get it now?

    I mean if my womb could speak, I would not be sitting here as it would mean that my womb had somehow managed to find its way back to my house and had taken control of my computer and was typing. Not something I'd want to consider.

    Nope. Just as you can't change the fact that a woman should have rights over her own body, regardless. And any law that denies women their basic and fundamental human rights is, well, bad in my opinion.

    Again, if I make a mod note or post as a mod, I change the colour of my text to purple. I have made this clear many many times now.

    I asked her that question as in 'who do you think you're speaking to?' in the sense that I am an adult just as she is an adult..

    Again, accusing someone of lying when there is no proof is a serious accusation. And since it seems being polite and joking is offensive to you, I shall keep it on the straight and narrow and I will expect you to do the same, and the same applies to Seagypsy. Aside from that joke there from my womb (which cannot speak by the way), I have not sworn at you, even after you decided to use my son in this debate. I have treated you and her with extreme politeness and respect and I ask the same in return. Thank you.

    Sorry Neverfly, not my sub-forum so Tiassa or one of the supermods or admin will have to release it. I wasn't aware it was still happening while I was away.
  10. seagypsy Banned Banned

    You know what. Bells is right. I DO need to calm down. Just as I don't believe her stress from real life gives permission for her to be obnoxious in a thread, neither does the stress I am dealing with right now. (trying to tutor a belligerent, schizophrenic, bipolar, autistic, anxiety ridden, morbidly obese teen so that he doesn't end up in an institution for the rest of his life while struggling with my own college courses and health challenges). Again, none of it excuses bad behavior. So for my bad behavior, I am sorry. This is in no way suggesting that I believe Bells is not being an obnoxious emotional ass as well.
  11. lightgigantic Banned Banned

    actually that can be changed ... much like the fundamental right of whites to place blacks in slavery was changed. Basically all it required was a reassessment of power structures in society that led a minority group to suffer at the hands of another
  12. Bells Staff Member

    Yes I have.

    I have actually been enjoying my debate with Neverfly. Ie, I was discussing this with him and not you, so how you can claim that I have been rude to you in discussing this with him is, well, beyond me. The only times I have addressed you is when you have decided to launch abusive tirades in my direction while I have been discussing this with Neverfly.

    *Raises eyebrows*

    Can you please show me exactly where I have made such a claim, seagypsy?

    Thank you.

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    When someone makes arguments that religious pro-life supporters make, it is a fair assumption that he may be somewhat religious or spiritual in that sense.

    Seagypsy, believe it or not, but I am actually enjoying debating with Neverfly in that we aren't actually fighting but talking and debating. I am telling him how I personally feel about this issue and vice versa.

    So can I ask, why are you trying to flame me in this fashion? Are you trying to get a response of some kind?

    Please stop.

    I sometimes snort when I chuckle.

    It's a terrible trait. It's really bad when it happens while I am eating or drinking.

    Or are you attempting to intimate that I am snorting drugs?

    Please stop.
  13. Neverfly Banned Banned

    You said you had to prep for surgery, but I didn't really want to ask how that went mid-fight...
    No, I don't. I found it rude, obnoxious and indication that you are not calm in the least.
    Irrelevant. Just because you didn't change the text color does not, in any way, change the words. You were clear, alright.
    If you say so. It's possible the intent was vague enough to be misunderstood. But considering your vehement claims I somehow threatened you personally sometime back which were flat out absurd... I'm not feeling too gullible at the moment.
    It's fine. I remembered that if it's not your area, you cannot affect it- just wasn't sure of where your area is.
    That post covers why I accuse you of dishonesty, so I removed the above bit. When it clears, you can then see the rebuttal and why you're accused of direct dishonesty and dishonesty by omission.
    I have not been enjoying it. A good debate doesn't stoop to such flaming and ad hom attacks and yes, dishonesty.
    A good debate examines the merits of supportive arguments. If you've been enjoying the above flaming on all sides... well...
  14. seagypsy Banned Banned

    I should not have brought it up in a thread, or at all. I have tiptoed on the edge of breaking a major rule and to elaborate further would push me over the edge of that breakage.

    So are you suggesting that atheists are incapable of appreciating life in all it's forms? Are you suggesting that atheists are incapable perceiving life inside the womb? Are you saying that theists are right about us? That we are just monsters who hate babies? Is that the new requirement for being called atheist? And all this time, I thought it only meant that one does not believe in any god.

    you are not just telling him how you feel about the issue. You are also making claims about his character which are false. That constitutes lying.

    Why don't you set the example. I may not be smart enough to know how.

    You find it strange to think people on the thread would be interested in viewing an exchange between my husband and I, but you don't find it strange to think people would be interested in hearing your involuntary bodily functions *fart* ooops sorry.

    Oh I'm not intimating anything. Why would you think that? Strange. I was only suggesting that snorting may be affecting your posting style. I know when I have a hiccup fit I get agitated and sometimes growl. I thought maybe it was similar to that. I have also painfully and accidentally snorted Dr Pepper. Not good. Not good at all.

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  15. Bells Staff Member

    It didn't go as expected and it was long and I have a 10 week or so of a painful recovery ahead of me and ongoing treatment, again. I'm just glad to be home and able to hug my children again.

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    They allowed me to return home under strict 'stay in bed' and 'don't do anything' instructions.

    And I apologise if my joke offended you. It was not meant that way. Nor was I threatening seagypsy with anything. So if that is how it was taken, my apologies.

    I mean I'd be impressed if my womb did something like that though.. just saying..

    Anywho, moving on..

    Look this debate is an emotive one. And it is very easy to get lost in it.

    One of the biggest things I've found with it is that language is very important and when the language becomes so black and white as to 'life begins at the moment of conception' in legislation, then such legislation is fraught with danger and the result will be the loss of basic and fundamental human rights of women. And in this election cycle, we are seeing that kind of language and in legislation being proposed and enacted in some States in the US. And this is very dangerous territory to be heading into and if it continues, we will probably see an erosion of basic human rights where women are concerned and also the loss of reproductive health care for women. And that is very dangerous, for obvious reasons.
  16. Neverfly Banned Banned

    To say, "I'm sorry" is to express sorrow for something. To apologize is to give an excuse for saying or doing something you believe was justified.
    Way to impress, indeed.
    I've noticed. You basically break it down to, "No one has the right to tell me I cannot kill a child." It makes no sense to me at all. I've been trying VERY hard to keep cool- it's not been easy. S.G. normally is cool headed but I know her- lying is one thing that always sets her off. She's tough to piss off but that's one thing that will do it.
    Few posters have actually said that. L.G. is one.
    But you're fighting, like pareidolia, against people that are on your side, here. I do not believe in late term- But I don't disagree with early term as I don't have any way of saying that a clump of cells is a child. Right? I have made it clear that victims of rape are victims that are traumatized and need support, not more abuse.
    See below:
    And this is where dishonesty comes into play again- I've expressed agreement on many of these terms. You've omitted that while claiming I was trying to defend religious beliefs I do not hold. You actually said that.
    At least you admit the topic elicits emotion- that has been made very clear,
  17. Bells Staff Member

    No you shouldn't have.

    Not at all. Can you show where I have made such a claim?

    Such a claim was made, but not by me. See below.

    By saying that his argument is religious?

    One that he has also lobbed at me and others in this thread? For example, see here: Post #31.

    And speaking of character assassination, Neverfly even went so far as to accuse Tiassa and I (both of us are atheists) of apparently disregarding the lives of "young children" in our supposed zeal to be anti-conservative and anti-religion (ie atheists)..

    Which is blatantly false.

    Seagypsy, the only time I have addressed you in this discussion is when you have decided to come after me for something I have said to a completely different person. You have accused me of being a "fucking liar", and a few other choice terms and insinuated a few things as well about me, not to mention decided to falsely accuse me of using my real life problems as an out in this debate, when I have done no such thing. I have asked you from the start of your tirade and attacks against me, to stop.

    Funny, isn't it..

    It's like when I call my parents and both of them get on the phone and my father speaks to my mother via the phone..

    Mmmm hmmm..

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  18. Bells Staff Member

    It was a joke.


    Okay, firstly, I say "exercise choice" and you return with "No one has the right to tell me I cannot kill a child".. And then you claim that we are somehow on the same side in this debate?

    Secondly, when I debate you, I debate you, not seagypsy.

    I do not treat you two as a single entity.

    The language you use in this debate is not one 'from my side'. For example, when you say to me that in my apparent anti-religious and anti-conservative zeal that I am apparently disregarding the lives of young children, that is not 'from my side' or on my side. It is insulting, demeaning and also libelous. Because I have spent the better part of my adult life fighting for the lives of young children, literally. So I find it deeply insulting to be told that I apparently disregard the lives of young children because I happen to be pro-choice.

    Your argument is religious though in that it follows what religious pro-lifer's say in these debates. That is what I meant.

    I mean you believe that my pro-choice argument is just as religious...
  19. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Exercising the "Right" to murder a child one simply does not want?
    Yet, you treat mother and child as that. No, scratch that. The child simply doesn't exist if she wants to kill it.
    What you have said in this thread is suggestive that until that baby comes out of the mother- it simply doesn't count. Now, unless you say that you also oppose late term abortions, I'm strongly under the impression that you actually believe that the act of birth makes it a human and unless it's born- it isn't one.
    My argument has not been religious in any way. It's been humane. It's been realist. There are no denials or sugar coating or omissions on my part.
    The difference is that I said it's almost religious-like, you accused me directly of defending religious beliefs.
  20. Bells Staff Member

    So when do you think it becomes murder?

    The point of conception?

    You claimed earlier that you can easily kill man or animal if you have to survive. Do you think women who have abortions for health reasons are murderers? Or is there an exception to that rule? Does she become a murder of a "young child" when the second trimester hits?

    But you believe that you are on my side in this debate, correct?

    You believe that a woman who has an abortion in the first trimester should be allowed to do so. So she isn't a murderer then? When do you think "the child" should start to exist for the mother, Neverfly? In your opinion?

    Earlier in this thread, you designated an embryo as a "young child", skipping many levels of development along the way, just for that emotive 'you support the murder of young children' argument... So when do you think a woman should lose her rights to her body during pregnancy? What escape clauses would you allow women?

    Pretty much.

    It has no rights. In Australia, if a woman's life becomes threatened by her pregnancy regardless of where she is during that pregnancy, that "child" no longer counts. To put it into some perspective for you, I was in labour and I was told, to my face that my "child" did not count. Even though I had made that choice to save it above my own life.

    If that is what you wish to believe, so be it. I respectfully disagree that your argument has been humane or "realist". Nor do I believe that you weren't 'sugar coating' when you declared embryos and foetus' as "young children".
    Well the debate in the US at present in regards to this area is about religious beliefs and laws being enacted in various States are based solely on the religious beliefs of those in power.
  21. seagypsy Banned Banned

    duplicate post
    Last edited: Nov 6, 2012
  22. seagypsy Banned Banned

    This is a duplicate because the original went into mod queue. Mod's feel free to delete this one or the matching one.

    bolding mine

    Notice the things in bold? they are called question marks. They indicate questions. Not Claims.

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    No one said you had religious beliefs about when life starts.

    You didn't say his argument was religious. You said he was defending his religious beliefs. And he has expressed no religious beliefs at all. His opinion of when life commences is based on science and he defines sentience based on the existence of a brain. Not that you have paid any attention to when he has stated that. See Your lies Below:

    Well I guess this is just a matter of perspective. Because I too get the impression that you are holding your position simply because you don't want to give in to theists. Sadly too many atheists and theists alike seem to think that they have to disagree on everything in order to validate their position on the existence or lack there of a god.

    [sarcasm]So it seems that if a theist holds a particular point of view, that point of view MUST be wrong because they are theist.[/sarcasm]

    So are we only allowed to respond to posts directed at us personally? I will fight dishonesty where I see it.

    bolding mine and that is what I am addressing here.

    I can understand why it would see like an accusation. It was not intended that way but not knowing where it came from, you couldn't have interpreted it any other way. I'm sorry for bringing it up. And sorry I am not at liberty to explain it either. I meant to go back and edit it out of my post but saw it had already been responded to. So to delete it at that point would have appeared as dishonest rather than regret.

    mmmm hmmm sure is funny.

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  23. Neverfly Banned Banned

    Bells, You have clearly not read anything I've said. I've been clear since the thread began. If you ad hom attacked my reading comprehension as you had and you actually ask this, now- what does that say about yours? Really?
    In fact most of the post contains questions I've already been very clear on. If you have all these questions, perhaps you should go back and actually read my posts for a change. This is absurd! Seriously- Go back and read my posts. Don't claim some diddly squat. Go read them.
    I have said it many, many times "when it is killing a child."
    I never did. Though it appears you have assumed that... which could only happen if you did not really read my posts. I didn't even imply it. I was clear- the only time I have spoken against abortion is when there is a brain/nervous system (not when it begins to develop, either, when, as I said, it's there), which is about 18-20 weeks. You really need to read what you're responding to, Bells.
    You claim you don't change my words, yet here's a clear case where you have. Is my back against a wall? It is not. This is also where you get accused of dishonesty in saying I said things I never said.
    What an appalling point of view. So a child thirty seconds before birth is not a child? I find that very interesting for reasons already covered.
    Whose just been demonstrated dishonest, unable to read posts, etc?
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