75 yr old woman sentenced to 40 lashes for mingling.

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S.A.M. said:
I would encourage all Muslims to stop apologising.
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I'm not asking for an apology, I'm asking for ****ing condemnation of all uncivilised behaviour regardless of its source.
Just for the record, though its probably quite incidental, my wife is Moslem.
 
Ophiolite said:
I'm not asking for an apology, I'm asking for ****ing condemnation of all uncivilised behaviour regardless of its source.
Just for the record, though its probably quite incidental, my wife is Moslem.
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You are right Ophi, I am eating crow today.

I shall endeavor to turn over a new leaf.

Thanks for the butt kick
 
S.A.M. said:
Ophiolite said:
I'm not asking for an apology, I'm asking for ****ing condemnation of all uncivilised behaviour regardless of its source.
Just for the record, though its probably quite incidental, my wife is Moslem.
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You are right Ophi, I am eating crow today.

I shall endeavor to turn over a new leaf.
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Cool S.A.M.

I also think that asking for an apology by the perpetrators of uncivilized behaviour should be fine too, but I understand that their mindsets may not permit it at times (they may believe they're doing the right thing or be too embarassed to admit they did something wrong). I apply this statement equally to governments and people of any stripe.
 
The problem is making only Muslims apologize. It is seen as making us complicit in something which is entirely independent of us. When you criticize a religious group or civilization, especially when that group is already under attack and occupation, it naturally produces strong indignation and anger against the source of its exploitation.

We are not making all white people apologize for Timothy McVeigh's heinous crime, why should we apologize for someone we know nothing about who professes to be our color or from our religion.
 
So sam, it looks like education for women is becoming a thing of the past in large ares of Pakistan.
 
swarm said:
So sam, it looks like education for women is becoming a thing of the past in large ares of Pakistan.
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Pakistan's education system is still vastly superior to India's I am afraid. You should watch the movie slumdog million, more than 60% of Indian's live in urban and rural slums, how sad. India is a thing of the past. Instead of improving your own country, you spend all your time criticizing other countries.
 
DiamondHearts said:
The problem is making only Muslims apologize.
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I never stated that I felt that only muslims should apologize for misdeeds.


DiamondHearts said:
It is seen as making us complicit in something which is entirely independent of us.
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I agree. I certainly am not responsible for what other pantheists do.


DiamondHearts said:
When you criticize a religious group or civilization, especially when that group is already under attack and occupation, it naturally produces strong indignation and anger against the source of its exploitation.
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Americans would say that they were also attacked; you know, 9/11. I personally think it was an inside job and there's still one unclosed thread left concerning the matter open over in the Formal Debates forum. But many americans still believe in the official story.


DiamondHearts said:
We are not making all white people apologize for Timothy McVeigh's heinous crime, why should we apologize for someone we know nothing about who professes to be our color or from our religion.
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I agree.
 
BTW, my response was directed against Ophiolite, not you.

I agree 9/11 was an inside job. Not only that, other events also like London bombing and Bombay bombing were false flags. We live in an era where the world is a stage and we are the audience.
 
DiamondHearts said:
BTW, my response was directed against Ophiolite, not you.
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Ok, although I think he woud have said the same, only for him it would have been condemnation.


DiamondHearts said:
I agree 9/11 was an inside job.
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Cool :)

DiamondHearts said:
Not only that, other events also like London bombing and Bombay bombing were false flags. We live in an era where the world is a stage and we are the audience.
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I agree in the case of the London bombing, although I'm not sure about the Bombay/Mumbai bombing.
 
DiamondHearts said:
BTW, my response was directed against Ophiolite, not you.
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Against me. Not against my argument? Interesting choice of words.

Here is my choice of words. Learn to ****ing read.

I did not propose apologies from Muslims. I proposed condemnation by Muslims, Protestants, Atehists, housepainters, philatelists, gay rights activists, opticians and all forms and variety of human classification of any uncivilised behaviour. Are you against that? Do you think it is OK to stand idly by and not comment on mayhem, slaughter, cruelty, supression of human rights, torture, indiscriminate bombing, etc, etc?
 
Ophiolite said:
I did not propose apologies from Muslims. I proposed condemnation by Muslims, Protestants, Atehists, housepainters, philatelists, gay rights activists, opticians and all forms and variety of human classification of any uncivilised behaviour.
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Based on whose "civilized" ideals? As you might be aware, not all cultures/societies in the world have the same ideals. So who do we call "civilized" and who do we call "uncivilized"?

Ophiolite said:
Do you think it is OK to stand idly by and not comment on mayhem, slaughter, cruelty, supression of human rights, torture, indiscriminate bombing, etc, etc?
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Just talk? No action at all? Just make some idle comment like, "Gee, that's not very nice.", then go on about our business of enjoying life?

And do you think that other cultures, other societies, that are different to ours will listen and change their whole culture because we say so?

Baron Max
 
Ophiolite said:
Against me. Not against my argument? Interesting choice of words.

Here is my choice of words. Learn to ****ing read.

I did not propose apologies from Muslims. I proposed condemnation by Muslims, Protestants, Atehists, housepainters, philatelists, gay rights activists, opticians and all forms and variety of human classification of any uncivilised behaviour. Are you against that? Do you think it is OK to stand idly by and not comment on mayhem, slaughter, cruelty, supression of human rights, torture, indiscriminate bombing, etc, etc?
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Against you, your argument, its simply semantics.

If there is a pile of wood made for the purpose of building a fire. Let's say each piece of wood represents the object of making Muslims apologize for crimes they did not commit. You come and lay down a piece in that pile, asking Muslims (and others) to condemn something. That piece of wood was laid down to simply protest an injustice, yet the wood will still help the fire to produce a brighter flame and last longer. The unintended fire is the demonization of all Muslims.

In essence, you don't need to ask Muslims to condemn injustice, because the Quran already commands us to. Being a good Muslim is a part of denouncing injustice. For example if IRA sets a bomb in London, do we ask all Irish people to condemn this attack to prove they are peaceful. You understand what I'm trying to say?
 
 
DiamondHearts said:
In essence, you don't need to ask Muslims to condemn injustice, because the Quran already commands us to.
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There are many Muslims who feel that they need to kill others as part of a jihad .....and jihads are part of the beliefs of the Qurran.

DiamondHearts said:
For example if IRA sets a bomb in London, do we ask all Irish people to condemn this attack to prove they are peaceful. You understand what I'm trying to say?
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Don't have to ask them, the Irish openly and loudly condemn the violence! Muslims don't do that ....mostly they stay quiet or even try to defend the Muslim attackers/killers/suicide bombers/etc.

Baron Max
 
DiamondHearts said:
Being a good Muslim is a part of denouncing injustice. For example if IRA sets a bomb in London, do we ask all Irish people to condemn this attack to prove they are peaceful. You understand what I'm trying to say?
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But the condemnation of terrorist acts is disappointingly absent in many many instances. Were I Moslem I should be enraged at the impression left by this atmosphere of silence and would shout from the rooftops that the violence was wrong.
 
Baron Max said:
There are many Muslims who feel that they need to kill others as part of a jihad .....and jihads are part of the beliefs of the Qurran.
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It's called war. If you can't understand that, go back to your Vietnam days, I'm sure you will remember.

War is a part of every ideology, including Capitalist and Communist ideologies. Jihad is a specific war, in response to an invasion or occupation by a foreign power and to alleviate oppression.

Baron Max said:
Don't have to ask them, the Irish openly and loudly condemn the violence! Muslims don't do that ....mostly they stay quiet or even try to defend the Muslim attackers/killers/suicide bombers/etc.

Baron Max
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So you only listen to the Irish and not the Muslims. Go check out the major Muslim organizations in your country, they all denounce violence. CAIR, ICNA, ISNA, MAS, etc. Go to their websites.

As far as what Islam says, any killing of innocents is zulm (oppression) and the one who kills innocent people is a zaalim (oppressor).

We have to differentiate, however, those who attack US and NATO troops, and their puppet governments, are soldiers of a legitimate resistance directed at liberating their homeland. Those who attack bazaars and civilian centers are oppressors who not only malign the resistance, but weaken the cause fo the people to lift their oppression. It has already been established that most of those who attack civilians have agendas which contradict legitimate resistance, and serve the interests of global powers.
 
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