http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7248629.stm


Last Updated: Saturday, 16 February 2008, 15:48 GMT
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Iranians urge Dutch to ban film
By Elettra Neysmith
BBC News

Geert Wilders
The Iranians want Geert Wilders' film banned
The Iranian government has intervened to try to stop the screening of a film in the Netherlands about the Koran.

The Iranians say that the film, by the Dutch member of parliament Geert Wilders, is offensive.

The Iranian justice minister, Gholam Hussein Elham, wrote to his Dutch counterpart, Ernst Hirsch Ballin, calling for a ban.

Mr Hussein Elham said freedom of speech should not be used as a cover for attacking moral and religious values.

'Freedom of expression'

Mr Wilders says his film will show the Muslim holy book is an inspiration for murder.

But the Iranian justice minister says it is an unnecessary attack on what Muslims regard as the holiest of things.

He said the motivation behind the film was satanic and urged the Dutch government to stop its screening.

Mr Wilders has already been advised that he may have to leave the country for his own safety.

But the government has so far refused to intervene, saying the issue is one of freedom of expression.

In 2004, the Dutch film director, Theo van Gogh, was killed by a Muslim extremist in an Amsterdam street after bringing out the film Submission.

It dealt with the issue of abused Muslim women and included scenes of nearly naked women with Koranic texts engraved on their bodies.



****************************


After the cartoon & teddy bear farces we are about to enter the mother of all film farces, Geert Wilders a extremist in my view or redneck, & muslim hater, & believe it or not i am not a fan of his, exremists are people who cant change there mind, they have tunnel vision, geert has this problem i dont, i agree he does have a right to show this film, the passion of christ was banned in some countries like pakistan, i hope to god the UK or the US does not ban it, muslims need to stop wearing there religon on there sleeves, as denmark repinted the cartoons this week, there was no muslim outcry or riots, that is the way forward, when they stop being emotional about religon, they might just realise it is just that religon a belief true or false, not a thing worth dying or killing for.

I have no doubt if this film is shown without being banned in the west it will result in cinema's being attacked or even burned down

The dutch goverment is telling there own mp to get out of the country for his own safety, a supposed democratic free speech country is telling there own mp for speaking his mind he is no longer safe in the country he lives in.

I've never had the good fortune to read the koran, im usually to busy counting sheep, however from what i gather the word jihaad appears quite a bit, & from what i gather it is used by modern fanatics as justication on any matter, that dare criticise islam.


Well geert where will you go, brazil? cuba? disney world?
My guess is being the arrogant guy you are, & the belief you are indestructable you will stay in holland, R.I.P geert, this film will go down as your epitaph.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7204452.stm


The Dutch prime minister has spoken of fears the film could be offensive and "lead to reactions that endanger public order, security and the economy".

One Iranian politician has warned of repercussions from the Muslim world.

********************
It seams the dutch PM is already pannicking, i think he might leave the country too, the iranians are warning of repercussions throughout the muslim world, i really dont think anyone is ready for another worldwide demo's of muslims against the west, the cartoon one did most of us in.

I think the dutch PM should move to iran, he seems to share there views on free speach.

I read a story that says he hates Islam, not Muslims:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/17/netherlands.islam?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews

:shrug:

I read a story that says he hates Islam, not Muslims:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/feb/17/netherlands.islam?gusrc=rss&feed=worldnews

:shrug:

The Dutch government is planning emergency evacuation of its nationals and diplomats from the Middle East should the Wilders film be shown. It is alarmed about the impact on Dutch business. 'Our Prime Minister is a big coward. The government is weak,' says Wilders. 'They hate my guts and I don't like them either.'

**********************

From your link Sandy, iagree with geert his goverment is weak, all though i dont like him, i truly believe he is a redneck, i firmly believe the film will do good it will build up the tolerance level of muslims, to accept criticism, in order for any religon to be healthy it needs to be open to criticism, as proven with salman rushdie & van goghs nephew talk on islam is like a open wound to many of them.

Already this week this has been proven with the new reprint of the cartoons in denmark, if you ignore islam with criticism it only harms islam.
If you keep knocking the foundations away that islam is untouchable & anyone who dares speaks against should face a jihaad, then they will start to get thick skin like other faiths, & stop being so bloody emotional over there religon, emotion is what causes murder & riots, if you dull the emotion you stop the murders & riots.

The dutch government is being PC, they dont look at the big picture, neither does the uk gov or the US one who both banned the cartoons, by doing so they actually harmed islam, the demo militants in the uk think they won, they gained more power.

Alot of writers & journalists, understand that way forward is to confront the issue & not sweep it under the carpet like politicians do, my guess is many muslims actually respect denmark more now than they ever did before, for being strong.

PC is what is keeping the fanatics going, giving them strength, if our politians were more direct there would never have been a 9-11.

I think the peaceful Muslims should show themselves en masse and denounce all terrorism. I think they should denounce all the violence in the Koran. I think if they became the majority, no one would have any problems with Muslims.

I think if they became the majority, no one would have any problems with Muslims.

I think if Muslims didn't coincidentally live on top of the world's largest oil reserves, no one would have any problems with them.

I think if they didn't "distort the Koran" and stop terrorizing the world, we would have much more respect for them.

I think if they didn't "distort the Koran" and stop terrorizing the world, we would have much more respect for them.

You think wrong.

Islam and Christianity both are just superstitious nonsense. People are free to believe what they choose, but if you believe in nonsense, you have to be prepared to deal with the consequences. I think it is summed up best by this H.L. Mencken quote:

The way to deal with superstition is not to be polite to it, but to tackle it with all arms, and so rout it, cripple it, and make it forever infamous and ridiculous. Is it, perchance, cherished by persons who should know better? Then their folly should be brought out into the light of day, and exhibited there in all its hideousness until they flee from it, hiding their heads in shame.
True enough, even a superstitious man has certain inalienable rights. He has a right to harbor and indulge his imbecilities as long as he pleases, provided only he does not try to inflict them upon other men by force. He has a right to argue for them as eloquently as he can, in season and out of season. He has a right to teach them to his children. But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge. Did Darrow, in the course of his dreadful bombardment of Bryan, drop a few shells, incidentally, into measurably cleaner camps? Then let the garrisons of those camps look to their defenses. They are free to shoot back. But they can't disarm their enemy.
-- H L Mencken, "Aftermath" (coverage of the Scopes Trial) The Baltimore Evening Sun, (September 14, 1925)

But this is what we are up against:

Syed Bilal
Former 17-year-old student of Dr. Younus Shaikh; the latter was convicted of blasphemy in Pakistan in August, 2001, for teaching that Mohammed did not practice Islam until after he had received his revelation

Only out of respect, because he was our teacher, did we not beat him to death on the spot.
-- Syed Bilal, relating his alleged response to Dr. Shaikh's teaching, quoted from Barry Bearak, "Death to Blasphemers: Islam's Grip on Pakistan," New York Times, May 12, 2001

Abdul Wahid Qasmi
Secretary general of the Finality of the Prophet, a group well known for pursuing blasphemers in Pakistan

For Dr. Shaikh's own protection, we sought his arrest. Otherwise, he might have been killed in the streets.
-- Abdul Wahid Qasmi, endorsing the capital charges against Dr. Younus Shaikh, who was convicted of blasphemy in Pakistan in August, 2001, for teaching that Mohammed did not practice Islam until after he had received his revelation, quoted from Barry Bearak, "Death to Blasphemers: Islam's Grip on Pakistan," New York Times, May 12, 2001

Even if someone is only half-conscious when speaking against the Prophet, he must die. In Dr. Shaikh's case, his relatives have come to see us, saying the man is sorry and that he repents. But to be sorry now is not enough. Even if a man is sorry, he must die.
-- Abdul Wahid Qasmi, managing to sound amiable in endorsing the capital charges against Dr. Younus Shaikh, who was convicted of blasphemy in Pakistan in August, 2001, for teaching that Mohammed did not practice Islam until after he had received his revelation, quoted from Barry Bearak, "Death to Blasphemers: Islam's Grip on Pakistan," New York Times, May 12, 2001

Yeah, lets have more hate films. Thats the way to use freedom, to spread hatred against groups of people.

Islam and Christianity both are just superstitious nonsense. People are free to believe what they choose, but if you believe in nonsense, you have to be prepared to deal with the consequences.
But this is what we are up against:

Syed Bilal
Former 17-year-old student of Dr. Younus Shaikh; the latter was convicted of blasphemy in Pakistan in August, 2001, for teaching that Mohammed did not practice Islam until after he had received his revelation

Only out of respect, because he was our teacher, did we not beat him to death on the spot.
-- Syed Bilal, relating his alleged response to Dr. Shaikh's teaching, quoted from Barry Bearak, "Death to Blasphemers: Islam's Grip on Pakistan," New York Times, May 12, 2001

Abdul Wahid Qasmi
Secretary general of the Finality of the Prophet, a group well known for pursuing blasphemers in Pakistan

For Dr. Shaikh's own protection, we sought his arrest. Otherwise, he might have been killed in the streets.
-- Abdul Wahid Qasmi, endorsing the capital charges against Dr. Younus Shaikh, who was convicted of blasphemy in Pakistan in August, 2001, for teaching that Mohammed did not practice Islam until after he had received his revelation, quoted from Barry Bearak, "Death to Blasphemers: Islam's Grip on Pakistan," New York Times, May 12, 2001

Even if someone is only half-conscious when speaking against the Prophet, he must die. In Dr. Shaikh's case, his relatives have come to see us, saying the man is sorry and that he repents. But to be sorry now is not enough. Even if a man is sorry, he must die.
-- Abdul Wahid Qasmi, managing to sound amiable in endorsing the capital charges against Dr. Younus Shaikh, who was convicted of blasphemy in Pakistan in August, 2001, for teaching that Mohammed did not practice Islam until after he had received his revelation, quoted from Barry Bearak, "Death to Blasphemers: Islam's Grip on Pakistan," New York Times, May 12, 2001



Your main reference is a islamic one, yet you mention christian in the same breath, i mean last time the christians were killing blasphemers was during the witch killing days of 200 years ago, yet in muslim countries they still doing it today, there is no comparison unless you want to compare the chritian faith of centuries ago to islam today, then your complaint should be why has islam remained the same for thousands of years, the reason is in your quote all criticism against islam leaves to jihaad against that person, a religon can not develop or change without criticism.

thats why it is so important the media in all its forms continues to undermine the aura surrounding islam, iran is scared why?
Simple without that aura or golden halo iran is out of business so is bin lid, they need us not to criticise islam, thus they will continue to have obedient masses who never question there religon or beliefs, thast why it is illegal to leave islam in muslim countries, the more we undermine the more rights they want the more freedoms to choose there religon.

Yeah, lets have more hate films. Thats the way to use freedom, to spread hatred against groups of people.

Its called giving people a thick skin to deal with life, muslims are so easy to get emotinal over a word or words, is a word or words worth dying for or killing for?
I could go into any church or temple tommorow & spend all day calling buddha or god obscene names the reality is nothing will be done, sure the police may move me on, but the people praying will ignore me, yet if i did the same in a mosque about mohammed, what would there response be?

Muslims need to be conditioned to deal with criticism, at the moment any criticism sets off a tinderbox of emotions worldwide, and that is childish & stupid.
At least our free speach is now doing what politians refuse to do.
Was not the passion of christ a hate film against jews, i dont recall jews going on the rampage worldwide or are you saying the jews are more adult & responsible in dealing with criticism?????

films are art, peoples opinions, or fantasy, or the truth, either way it is up to the cinema goer to make up his own mind not you or any one else trying to censor movies, censorship is a long road, where & when do you stop?

Its called giving people a thick skin to deal with life, muslims are so easy to get emotinal over a word or words, is a word or words worth dying for or killing for?
I could go into any church or temple tommorow & spend all day calling buddha or god obscene names the reality is nothing will be done, sure the police may move me on, but the people praying will ignore me, yet if i did the same in a mosque about mohammed, what would there response be?

Muslims need to be conditioned to deal with criticism, at the moment any criticism sets off a tinderbox of emotions worldwide, and that is childish & stupid.
At least our free speach is now doing what politians refuse to do.
Was not the passion of christ a hate film against jews, i dont recall jews going on the rampage worldwide or are you saying the jews are more adult & responsible in dealing with criticism?????

films are art, peoples opinions, or fantasy, or the truth, either way it is up to the cinema goer to make up his own mind not you or any one else trying to censor movies, censorship is a long road, where & when do you stop?

You're right, it worked so well with the Jews during WWII.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/images/covers/judsuss.jpg



The Eternal Jew:
The Film of a 2000-Year Rat Migration
(http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ewig.htm)

My complaint is with dogmatic nonsense. True Believers ™ in anything are troublemaking fanatics, who cannot allow themselves to doubt for a moment that they are right, and their opponents are wrong.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1150/kenyaeastafricaprophetdey1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

My complaint is with dogmatic nonsense. True Believers ™ in anything are troublemaking fanatics, who cannot allow themselves to doubt for a moment that they are right, and their opponents are wrong.


Yeah, nothing like an education about the philosophy of some people by an "objective" group

The Eternal Jew is the first film that not only gives a full picture of Jewry, but provides a broad treatment of the life and effects of this parasitic race using genuine material taken from real life. It also shows why healthy peoples in every age have responded to the Jews with disgust and loathing, often enough expressing their feelings though deeds.

Just like rats, the Jews 2000 years ago moved from the Middle East to Egypt, at that time a flourishing land. Even then they had all the criminal traits they display today, even then they were the enemies of hard-working, creative peoples. In large hordes they migrated from there to the "Promised Land," flooded the entire Mediterranean region, broke into Spain, France, and Southern Germany, then followed the German colonists as they moved into the countries of the East. Along they way they remained eternal parasites, haggling and cheating. Poland above all became the enormous reservoir from which Jewry sent its agents to every leading nation of Europe and the world.

The self-portrait Jewry offered the world was disgusting from the beginning. All that is overshadowed by the powerful examples in this new and most valuable film, The Eternal Jew. This film with its persuasive power must be shown everywhere where anti-Semitism is still questioned. No one will fail to shudder at the sneaking servility and dirty bartering of the Jews when they start out, at the perfidy, insidiousness and vulgarity of their methods, at the brutality and all-devouring hatred they exhibit when they reach their goal and control finance.

The most revolting scenes show Jewish slaughtering methods. These customs, which cast a particularly vivid spotlight on the so-called Jewish religion, are so terrible that it is hard to watch the film as the grinning Jewish butchers carry out their work. It is illuminating to see how stubbornly Jewry holds to its method of slaughter and with which casuistry it defends it against the horror of the civilized world. Rarely will people feel more horror than which watching the desperate and horrible death struggle of the slaughtered animals. Long before the seizure of power, the NSDAP fought against Jewish slaughter. National Socialist representatives in parliament repeatedly introduced legislation to abolish this form of animal torture through a ban on Jewish slaughter. Such proposals were always rejected, since the entire Jewish and Jewish-influenced press ran long articles against them and the so-called German parties refused to support National Socialism in its battle against this evil.

Not only in this regard, but in other areas too we are reminded with a shudder of what once was reality in Germany: the power of the Jews in the economy, finance, culture, theater, film, publishing, press, radio, education and politics. All these Jewish leaders of the Weimar era had their home or their origin in the filthy ghettos of the East.

One has a deep sense of salvation after seeing this film. We have broken their power over us. We are the initiators of the fight against world Jewry, which now directs its hate, its brutal greed and destructive will toward us. We must win this battle for ourselves, for Europe, for the world. This film will be a valuable tool in that struggle.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ewig.htm

You're right, it worked so well with the Jews during WWII.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/images/covers/judsuss.jpg



The Eternal Jew:
The Film of a 2000-Year Rat Migration
(http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ewig.htm)

What were setting up concentration camps & gassing muslims?

your comparison is a knee jerk muslim one, that has no basis in reality, the mere fact the danes reprinted the cartoons this week with totally no reprisals should tell you that this process is working, as a supposed scientist wanabee any lab rat would say hey its working, there is no rioting no burning of embassies no flag burning no posters in the uk saying bomb europe, this time no response, is that not a good thing????????????

Does that not mean muslims are starting to develop a thicker skin to criticism, is that not how you stop violence to take emotions out of it, emotions are what we kill for in religon.

are you a scientist?

Any fool can see these attacks against islam by newspapers the movies, is starting to mature islam into this century?
& yet you have a problem with that why?
do you believe islam should remain the same forever, where it is illegal or dangerous to criticise islam, & illegal to change your religon, is that progress to you????

My complaint is with dogmatic nonsense. True Believers ™ in anything are troublemaking fanatics, who cannot allow themselves to doubt for a moment that they are right, and their opponents are wrong.

http://img218.imageshack.us/img218/1150/kenyaeastafricaprophetdey1.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

What freedom does she possess the right to show her eyelashes, her appearance merely shows her oppression, if god wanted her so covered would she have not been born that way, we are born naked so are animals, i dont recall a clothes policy by god for humans or animals.
I see this poster i see oppression nothing else, and if you ask any sane person they will tell you the same.


If god did not want us to speak why were we born with mouths & vocal cords, it seems he believed in freedoms of speach.

What were setting up concentration camps & gassing muslims?

your comparison is a knee jerk muslim one, that has no basis in reality, the mere fact the danes reprinted the cartoons this week with totally no reprisals should tell you that this process is working, as a supposed scientist wanabee any lab rat would say hey its working, there is no rioting no burning of embassies no flag burning no posters in the uk saying bomb europe, this time no response, is that not a good thing????????????

Does that not mean muslims are starting to develop a thicker skin to criticism, is that not how you stop violence to take emotions out of it, emotions are what we kill for in religon.

are you a scientist?

Any fool can see these attacks against islam by newspapers the movies, is starting to mature islam into this century?
& yet you have a problem with that why?
do you believe islam should remain the same forever, where it is illegal or dangerous to criticise islam, & illegal to change your religon, is that progress to you????

What we need now is a solution.

As a result of the victory of the National Socialist revolution Danes, the Jewish Question Islamic terror has become a problem for those who never before thought about solving the Jewish Question Islamic terror, who never fought to solve it. Everyone has seen that the current situation is intolerable. Allowing free development and equality for the Jews Muslims has led to an "unfree" situation of exploited competition, and to a handing over of important positions within the German people to those of a foreign race.

The result is that anyone who thinks about this question looks for a solution. Everyone has a proposal on his desk, which gets a more or less favorable reaction in discussions. That was to be expected.

But the solution to so important a problem is not as easy as is often supposed.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/gercke.htm

What freedom does she possess the right to show her eyelashes, her appearance merely shows her oppression, if god wanted her so covered would she have not been born that way, we are born naked so are animals, i dont recall a clothes policy by god for humans or animals.
I see this poster i see oppression nothing else, and if you ask any sane person they will tell you the same.


If god did not want us to speak why were we born with mouths & vocal cords, it seems he believed in freedoms of speach.

Absolutely. Its all their problem, they need to figure it out and change.

The Jewish Muslim problem is a migrating problem that has moved over the centuries from one European region to another. One can speak of a certain degree of saturation with the Jewish Muslim population in individual regions. If this degree of saturation is reached or exceeded, the affected non-Jewish Muslim peoples always take the same defensive measures. They attempt to reduce Jewish Muslim influence, to hinder Jewish Muslim corruption of their cultural and business life, or to reverse it if it has already occurred. Often, the first step is a clear realization that theJews Muslim are a foreign element. Those countries not simultaneously affected by the problem tend to misunderstand these defensive measures, and as far as it is in their political interests, or to the extent that they are under Jewish Muslim influence, speak of "barbarism." When the emigrating Jewish Muslim masses show up by them, the whole course of events often repeats itself. Similar defensive measures appear in the second country, while in the first country the fighting spirit against the Jews Muslim has calmed down — and thus the misunderstandings continue.

No one who understands the situation will be able to deny that the cause of these defensive measures lies primarily in the Jewish Muslim people itself. Even with the greatest degree of impartiality, one will conclude that one is dealing with a group of people that is on average highly unpleasant. That may not stop one from looking at the question clearly.

What we need now is a solution.

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/gercke.htm

http://www.japantoday.com/jp/comment/305


Mary not virgin, BBC documentary claims
Send to a friendPrint

Charlene Sweeney


A BBC documentary to be screened this Christmas will question the beliefs of billions of Christians by suggesting that Mary was not a virgin when she conceived Jesus.

The Virgin Mary, which is to be aired on Dec 22, investigates three explanations, other than the immaculate conception, for Mary's pregnancy.


Firstly it looks at the possibility that she slept with Joseph while she was engaged to be married to him, secondly that she was raped by a Roman soldier and thirdly that she fell pregnant to an unidentified man before marrying Joseph.

***********************

The catholic faith is knocked down almost daily, we dont care me i laugh about it all, even though i am a catholic, our many gay priests etc & there affairs with there choir boys, i take god seriously not men in frocks in churches, all people are open to criticise god or to say he does not exist, thats there opinion, these are words nothing more.

Criticism is good for the catholic church it makes it stronger, sure the preists are doing this religon no good, the reason we had the spanish inquisition is because we did not criticise the church then, the reason we had witch burning is because we did not question the church, questions & criticisms are good they lead to progress, being silent does no one any good.

http://www.japantoday.com/jp/comment/305

The catholic faith is knocked down almost daily, we dont care me i laugh about it all, even though i am a catholic, our many gay priests etc & there affairs with there choir boys, i take god seriously not men in frocks in churches, all people are open to criticise god or to say he does not exist, thats there opinion, these are words nothing more.

Criticism is good for the catholic church it makes it stronger, sure the preists are doing this religon no good, the reason we had the spanish inquisition is because we did not criticise the church then, the reason we had witch burning is because we did not question the church, questions & criticisms are good they lead to progress, being silent does no one any good.

And?

Do you think Muslims practise their religion as Catholics practise theirs?

Ah, you're saying that because Catholics practise it this way, so must Muslims.

That Muslims must learn from Catholics to consider their beliefs ridiculous and violent. Correct?

We in the west are not going to curtail our right to freedom of expression because they don't like it. We are free to discuss their religion derisively, they are free to dislike that we do so. Nothing gives them the right to dictate how we discuss things, what books we read, or what films we watch.

We in the west are not going to curtail our right to freedom of expression because they don't like it. We are free to discuss their religion derisively, they are free to dislike that we do so. Nothing gives them the right to dictate how we discuss things, what books we read, or what films we watch.

Heh, so your freedom of expression is based on undermining theirs.

Do you have libel laws in your country?

Heh, so your freedom of expression is based on undermining theirs.

Do you have libel laws in your country?

There is no right to not be offended. Let's revisit the Mencken quote from the previous page. "But certainly he has no right to be protected against the free criticism of those who do not hold them. He has no right to demand that they be treated as sacred. He has no right to preach them without challenge."

There is no right to not be offended.

Tell that to the victims of the Holocaust.

Freedom of expression did not cause the holocaust.

Freedom of expression did not cause the holocaust.

Yes it did. The Nazi's freedom of expression. They were freely expressing their anti-semitism, just as you and yours are expressing your Islamophobia.

http://www.ushmm.org/wlc/article.php?lang=en&ModuleId=10005202

Yes, the Nazi regime were big believers in freedom of speech! You are fatally damaging your remaining credibility by posting such nonsense.

Yes, the Nazi regime were big believers in freedom of speech! You are fatally damaging your remaining credibility by posting such nonsense.

Why? Because the western media is so clearly unbiased about Muslims?:rolleyes:

All the western media has to do is allow Muslims to say what they are thinking. They dig their own hole.

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/7151/poar01hitchens0706el4.jpg (http://imageshack.us)


http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9673/islamcontradictiondx7.gif (http://imageshack.us)


http://img98.imageshack.us/img98/9105/nflag05yi9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

All the western media has to do is allow Muslims to say what they are thinking. They dig their own hole.


Aren't you all for freedom of expression?:rolleyes:

Btw, thanks for making my point about western media.

Could I see the original links for those images?

Aren't you all for freedom of expression?:rolleyes:

Btw, thanks for making my point about western media.

Could I see the original links for those images?

Certainly. They have the right to say they would like to kill me for being an atheist. Sticks and stones.

Do you think the above protesters are portrayed inaccurately? Do you believe the signs are altered, and originally said things like, "We would respectfully request that you not talk about the prophet Mohammad"?

Only one, http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/06/hitchens200706 . The others were ones I saved from various forums during the comic controversy a couple of years ago.

Certainly. They have the right to say they would like to kill me for being an atheist. Sticks and stones.


Yeah and eventually that leads to an atheist being killed. So going around saying atheist should be killed is likely to result in atheists being killed.

Do you think the above protesters are portrayed inaccurately? Do you believe the signs are altered, and originally said things like, "We would respectfully request that you not talk about the prophet Mohammad"?

They probably translated it directly from their language. Or maybe its for effect. However, if they started forming conventions for the positive role of beheading in reducing vilification of Islam, I would get worried.

Certainly. They have the right to say they would like to kill me for being an atheist. Sticks and stones.

Do you think the above protesters are portrayed inaccurately? Do you believe the signs are altered, and originally said things like, "We would respectfully request that you not talk about the prophet Mohammad"?

Only one, http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2007/06/hitchens200706 . The others were ones I saved from various forums during the comic controversy a couple of years ago.
So they were a response to the cartoons. Tit for tat.

Yeah and eventually that leads to an atheist being killed. So going around saying atheist should be killed is likely to result in atheists being killed.



They probably translated it directly from their language. Or maybe its for effect. However, if they started forming conventions for the positive role of beheading in reducing vilification of Islam, I would get worried.

Are you completely unfamiliar with how freedom of speech works in the US? We have white supremacist groups, the Phelps clan, all manner of hateful people advocating awful things. Though not pleasant at times, it is better than any alternative that I'm aware of.

Are you completely unfamiliar with how freedom of speech works in the US? We have white supremacist groups, the Phelps clan, all manner of hateful people advocating awful things. Though not pleasant at times, it is better than any alternative that I'm aware of.

Hence the one million dead in Iraq, the 6.6 million in Afghanistan.

So they were a response to the cartoons. Tit for tat.

If you consider death threats a reasonable response to some harmless cartoons, you are completely unhinged.

Hence the one million dead in Iraq, the 6.6 million in Afghanistan.

Red Herring.

If you consider death threats a reasonable response to some harmless cartoons, you are completely unhinged.

If you think a hate movie targeting all Muslims a reasonable way to educate/entertain people, you are even more unhinged.

Red Herring.

Clearly the fact that they are promoting anti-Muslim bias, targeting the religion and sending forces to occupy and kill in countries where the population is mostly Muslim are all just a coincidence. Clearly, the cartoons and such films have no effect on those who are indiscriminately killing civilians in both countries.:rolleyes:

If you think a hate movie targeting all Muslims a reasonable way to educate/entertain people, you are even more unhinged.

Not having seen the film in question, I have no opinion of it. Have you seen it?
Is this a hate film? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i74ZnwEuEMg Yusuf Al Khattab is a vile person, but I don't wish him dead, nor do I seek to silence him. The answer to his hateful ideas is to expose them for what they are.

Not having seen the film in question, I have no opinion of it. Have you seen it?
Is this a hate film? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i74ZnwEuEMg Yusuf Al Khattab is a vile person, but I don't wish him dead, nor do I seek to silence him. The answer to his hateful ideas is to expose them for what they are.

I don't need to see the film. I know Wilders. Would you need to see a Nazi film about Jews before you decided if it was anti-Semitic?

Btw, are any Nazi films ever screened anywhere?

http://al-amana.net/home/2008/01/29/eu-us-voice-concern-over-dutch-film-insulting-quran/

I don't need to see the film.

Translation: It is forbidden for me to see the film, hence I will comment on it's content based primarily on my cults beliefs coupled with unsubstantiated innuendo and hyperbole.

Translation: It is forbidden for me to see the film, hence I will comment on it's content based primarily on my cults beliefs coupled with unsubstantiated innuendo and hyperbole.

Translation: I would not read a book on evolution written by an avowed biblical creationist.

Translation: I would not read a book on evolution written by an avowed biblical creationist.

Oh, but you did, and you whole-heartedly take it as the truth; The Quran.

Oh, but you did, and you whole-heartedly take it as the truth; The Quran.

Have you read what it says about evolution?

Besides, I would not bother to hear paens on freedom of expression from a man who tried to get the Quran banned in a country that has banned Mein Kampf

Besides, I would not bother to hear paens on freedom of expression from a man who tried to get the Quran banned in a country that has banned Mein Kampf Yeah, people who try to get books banned - even books that call for killing atheists, stoning various ordinary people, etc - are not often trustworthy sources of "freedom of expression" thinking.

Cartoons either, of course.

It's going to be interesting to see if a country can formulate a general rule that bans cartoons of Muhammed without banning the Quran itself. My guess is that special exemptions for threats, hatred, etc, would be necessary for the Quran.

Have you read what it says about evolution? I have read what many dozens of experts and believers tell me it says about evolution. The religious leader of the Rochester, MN, Islamic community, for example, wants to be allowed to open a charter school that teaches children according to the precepts of the Quran - in particular, omitting evolutionary theory from the science curriculum. He has argued, in the past, that forcing "Muslim children" to learn about such things violates Islamic precepts.

Yeah, people who try to get books banned - even books that call for killing atheists, stoning various ordinary people, etc - are not often trustworthy sources of "freedom of expression" thinking.

Cartoons either, of course.

It's going to be interesting to see if a country can formulate a general rule that bans cartoons of Muhammed without banning the Quran itself. My guess is that special exemptions for threats, hatred, etc, would be necessary for the Quran.

It will be like the right wingers here attempting to ban burning the US flag. Of course, they don't want to arrest members of the local VFW chapter ceremonially burning worn out flags. So they'd have to try and tread the fine line of banning flag burning based on the mental state and perceived intent of whoever is burning it. A ludicrous proposition, but one that never fails to get the rabble roused.

I agree that Iran has taken extreme actions, and recognize and enjoy freedom of expression, but there is a difference between expression and flat-out disrespect.

I agree that Iran has taken extreme actions, and recognize and enjoy freedom of expression, but there is a difference between expression and flat-out disrespect.

You are free to disrespect those who believe in other religions, or none at all. The desire to kill those who disrespect your religion isn't compatible with modern civilization.

stoning various ordinary people, etc - are not often trustworthy sources of "freedom of expression" thinking.

You really should read the Qur'an before making these types of comments. "Stoning to death", "death by stoning", or any similar phrase is not mentioned once in the Qur'an, regardless of the crime.

I have read what many dozens of experts and believers tell me it says about evolution. The religious leader of the Rochester, MN, Islamic community, for example, wants to be allowed to open a charter school that teaches children according to the precepts of the Quran - in particular, omitting evolutionary theory from the science curriculum. He has argued, in the past, that forcing "Muslim children" to learn about such things violates Islamic precepts.

It is an interesting contradiction. Dogmatists are always unshakably certain their side is correct, but are always equally certain that if their flock are allowed to hear the other side of an issue, they will inevitably be led astray; the only safe course is rigidly enforced ignorance.

I hear they are building a creationist park in the UK to complement the Creationist museum in the US. Clearly these countries are clueless about science.

I hear they are building a creationist park in the UK to complement the Creationist museum in the US. Clearly these countries are clueless about science.

A very large portion of the populace here in the US certainly are. It's a shame ignorance isn't painful.

You are free to disrespect those who believe in other religions, or none at all. The desire to kill those who disrespect your religion isn't compatible with modern civilization.

No. You might not believe them or like them, but mutual respect is needed to maintain a moderate society.

The Dutch don't have to believe or like Islam, but they also shouldn't just mock Muslims. Although Iran has taken extreme action, they are still responding.

No. You might not believe them or like them, but mutual respect is needed to maintain a moderate society.

The Dutch don't have to believe or like Islam, but they also shouldn't just mock Muslims. Although Iran has taken extreme action, they are still responding.

You, or anyone else in the world, are free to believe whatever you like. But you are not allowed to put your nonsense off limits to mockery or derision. You are free to believe that the moon is made of green cheese, or that the Earth is flat. And others are free to mock you for believing in such nonsense. That you hold nonsense to be sacred does not put it off limits to criticism.

You, or anyone else in the world, are free to believe whatever you like. But you are not allowed to put your nonsense off limits to mockery or derision. You are free to believe that the moon is made of green cheese, or that the Earth is flat. And others are free to mock you for believing in such nonsense. That you hold nonsense to be sacred does not put it off limits to criticism.

Yes, criticism but criticism is still different than ignorant disrespect.

No. You might not believe them or like them, but mutual respect is needed to maintain a moderate society.

The Dutch don't have to believe or like Islam, but they also shouldn't just mock Muslims. Although Iran has taken extreme action, they are still responding.

You are free to respond as well. Make your own movies. Mock the Dutch all you want. They won't care one iota. They'll just laugh.

Extreme action from Muslims only proves their point.

mod...please edit the title of this thread, correcting it to "tries" ...I just can't take that mistake

I hear they are building a creationist park in the UK to complement the Creationist museum in the US. Clearly these countries are clueless about science. The fundie monotheistic citizens of the US are, in fact, disproportionately clueless about some fields of science.

That seems to be true of fundie monotheists elsewhere, as well.

But we have carefully maintained our ability to make fun of the US variety, draw cartoons, show disrespect, etc.

And we can also complain, criticise in pungent terms, and so forth.

We have entire movies devoted to that, books of parody, compendiums of derogatory analysis, and so forth.

Now, about the special privileges desired for Islamic fundies and their holy tome: the reasoning, again ?
Yes, criticism but criticism is still different than ignorant disrespect. How about informed disrespect ?

You are free to respond as well. Make your own movies. Mock the Dutch all you want. They won't care one iota. They'll just laugh.

Extreme action from Muslims only proves their point.

I'm sure, if I go to Amsterdamn burning the Dutch flag....they'll just laugh......:rolleyes:

How about informed disrespect ?

That's practically criticism. If one is merely going to mock another's ways, that's just disrespect. If they are going to question or criticise, that's criticism.

I'm sure, if I go to Amsterdamn burning the Dutch flag....they'll just laugh......:rolleyes:

Go ahead.

http://burntflag.com/flagburn.php?Flag=denmark

http://burntflag.com/flagburn.php?Flag=al%20qaeda

I'm sure, if I go to Amsterdamn burning the Dutch flag....they'll just laugh......:rolleyes:

So, did the Dutch go to Iran and burn their flag? What is your point? :shrug:

How very interesting. :D

I'm sure, if I go to Amsterdamn burning the Dutch flag....they'll just laugh...... Compare your treatment in that case with the treatment of the Dutchman going to Mecca and setting fire to a Quran.

It's motivating death threats, just the allegation of having a scene of that in a movie in Holland.

If you put a scene of Dutch flag burning in your movie you make and show in Syria, India, etc, I seriously doubt the Dutch will put out a contract on your life - any of them. You will not need police protection.

Yeah, now they merely bomb civilians in Afghanistan to counter the Islamic threat. More progressive.

Yeah, now they merely bomb civilians in Afghanistan to counter the Islamic threat. More progressive.

The Dutch are bombing Afghanistan?

Yup. Dont you know?

Compare your treatment in that case with the treatment of the Dutchman going to Mecca and setting fire to a Quran.

It's motivating death threats, just the allegation of having a scene of that in a movie in Holland.

If you put a scene of Dutch flag burning in your movie you make and show in Syria, India, etc, I seriously doubt the Dutch will put out a contract on your life - any of them. You will not need police protection.


That simply shows that they won't bother hunting me down.

However, we are discussing if they will laugh or be angered.

So, did the Dutch go to Iran and burn their flag? What is your point? :shrug:

Intelligent criticism is very fair and there's nothing wrong with that, but blatant and ignorant, unintellectual disrespect is another thing.

The Dutch can form some society to criticise Islam, but showing videos of bad drawings of the Prophet isn't really criticism.....it's just ignorant disrespect

Yup. Dont you know?

Oh, NATO forces.

Intelligent criticism is very fair and there's nothing wrong with that, but blatant and ignorant, unintellectual disrespect is another thing.

Regardless of how you spin it, nothing will stop people from making ignorant, unintellectual, disrespectful movies about anything and everything. Since Islam has been in the headlines these past years, it has become fair game for all sorts of criticism, disrespectful and otherwise.

Violence to censorship won't stop it and will only serve to demonstrate the content of the movies are correct.

The Dutch can form some society to criticise Islam, but showing videos of bad drawings of the Prophet isn't really criticism.....it's just ignorant disrespect

From your perspective, it's ignorant and disrespectful. So what? There is ignorance and disrespect everywhere. If violence is the only way you know how to deal with it, then you cannot claim Islam to be a peaceful religion.

So you think the distribution of anti-semitic books, literature, movies, etc by the Nazis was no big deal?

Regardless of how you spin it, nothing will stop people from making ignorant, unintellectual, disrespectful movies about anything and everything. Since Islam has been in the headlines these past years, it has become fair game for all sorts of criticism, disrespectful and otherwise.

Violence to censorship won't stop it and will only serve to demonstrate the content of the movies are correct.



From your perspective, it's ignorant and disrespectful. So what? There is ignorance and disrespect everywhere. If violence is the only way you know how to deal with it, then you cannot claim Islam to be a peaceful religion.
If the people react violently, that's their issue. However, it should be anticipated that anger will arise.

If the people react violently, that's their issue. However, it should be anticipated that anger will arise.

But, it certainly should not be anticipated or expected that violence will arise.

Anger management courses and counselling are available for those with issues.

But, it certainly should not be anticipated or expected that violence will arise.

Anger management courses and counselling are available for those with issues.

Certainly expected. As I said, the extreme will respond extremely when they are mocked. I can't go to Amsterdam (lovely city) and call the Dutch a bunch of babies and burn their flag without expecting a mob to kick my ass

So you think the distribution of anti-semitic books, literature, movies, etc by the Nazis was no big deal?

You can find it here, knock yourself out:

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ww2era.htm

You can find it here, knock yourself out:

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/ww2era.htm

I did, but the Holocaust is already over. :)

Hindsight is 20/20 don't you know?

Why is Mein Kampf banned in the Netherlands?

Mein Kamf is banned in the Netherlands? Ha, are the Dutch and Germans trying to deny what they did?

Certainly expected. As I said, the extreme will respond extremely when they are mocked.

And what we are finding is one case and one case only, MUSLIM fundamentalists responding violently to a 15 minute film.

I can't go to Amsterdam (lovely city) and call the Dutch a bunch of babies and burn their flag without expecting a mob to kick my ass

No one is asking you to do that. And the Dutch have not gone to Iran to burn their flag either.

Again, do you have a point?

Mein Kamf is banned in the Netherlands? Ha, are the Dutch and Germans trying to deny what they did?

Interesting POV, officially it is to preserve Jewish sensibility.

Must find out if they teach about Pretoria and apartheid in the Netherlands.

I did, but the Holocaust is already over. :)

Hindsight is 20/20 don't you know?

Why is Mein Kampf banned in the Netherlands?

Your attempts to derail the thread are not appreciated, sam.

Aren't we discussing freedom of expression? I'm interested in knowing if it only extends to other societies or is also introspective. Too bad spurious isn't here. He would know.

And what we are finding is one case and one case only, MUSLIM fundamentalists responding violently to a 15 minute film.



No one is asking you to do that. And the Dutch have not gone to Iran to burn their flag either.

Again, do you have a point?

And those fundamentalists are just that, fundamentalists who are probably extreme about their beliefs


My point is simply that people will get angry, so don't provoke them.

And those fundamentalists are just that, fundamentalists who are probably extreme about their beliefs

Then, it should be the authoritative figures within Islam that take the initiative to stop these fundamentalists from acting out their violence. It is your responsibility to show THEM, not US that Islam is a peaceful religion.

My point is simply that people will get angry, so don't provoke them.

Those people may attend anger management counseling sessions to help control their anger problems. That is not anyones issue but their own and has nothing to do with the making of films. If they are unable to control their anger and lash out in violence, they will be treated as criminals and convicted.

I think they should show "The Eternal Jew" with Wilders film. Then no one will feel especially picked upon.

Who has a copy of that movie?

I think they should show "The Eternal Jew" with Wilders film. Then no one will feel especially picked upon.

Who has a copy of that movie?

Those are two different topics, hence you are trolling.

Those are two different topics, hence you are trolling.

What do you think about showing both movies together? All in the interest of maintaining freedom of expression?

It would reassure the Muslims that everyone is equally ridiculed.

What do you think about showing both movies together? All in the interest of maintaining freedom of expression?

It would reassure the Muslims that everyone is equally ridiculed.

Stop trolling.

Stop trolling.

Its good to know that other people are/were also treated like crap by the same society. Misery loves company.

Sam, you haven't changed one bit, still the same troll as always, derailing every thread you get your paws on and whenever you disagree.

Sad, indeed.

I think I am very much on point here. It is Wilders intention, since he was unable to get the Quran banned, to ridicule it and Muslims. So lets make a party of it. Have films on all those previously treated the same way by Dutch society. I'm sure there were instances of some such in Calcutta by the Dutch India Company. South Africa is there for all to see. The Jews everyone knows, they can add the Muslims to it. Prove to everyone how secular and free thinking they really are.

I think I am very much on point here. It is Wilders intention, since he was unable to get the Quran banned, to ridicule it and Muslims.

And since you've already stated you don't need to see the film and hence will have no idea as to it's content, and that fact that you're examples are fallacious, your responses here are trolling. Go away.

Its not surprising you guys get manipulated by Emperors in New Clothes, over and over. I'm done.

To me it's just a stupid film. If it's full of shit then Muslims can say so. Same for anti-Jewish propaganda or anti-Chinese or Anti-Japanese or anti-Black ... let the idiots have their say and then stand up and refute them point for point.

The WORSE thing one can do is try to ban them from having their say, that only makes things worse.

Agreed, so long as its across the board. Others why pretend its freedom of expression they are defending?

That simply shows that they won't bother hunting me down.

However, we are discussing if they will laugh or be angered. No, we were discussing how grownups and civilized people handle things when angered by the essentially trivial. I can't go to Amsterdam (lovely city) and call the Dutch a bunch of babies and burn their flag without expecting a mob to kick my ass I think you could. And we were trying to campare apples with apples - these provocations were not Dutch people going to Syria and projecting their movies on the public billboards.
Mein Kamf is banned in the Netherlands? Ha, are the Dutch and Germans trying to deny what they did? No,that's not the reason.
So you think the distribution of anti-semitic books, literature, movies, etc by the Nazis was no big deal? I think it became a big deal when backed by death threats and physical harm, which it organized. The death threats and harms are kind of the other direction, here, and the organization on the other foot.
Aren't we discussing freedom of expression? I'm interested in knowing if it only extends to other societies or is also introspective. Too bad spurious isn't here. He would know. It's also introspective, has been for many years now. It would reassure the Muslims that everyone is equally ridiculed. Which Muslims? Some would better assure that by not being unusually ridiculous, or developing a sense of proportion - even humor ? Others could simply note that ridicule is pretty well distributed, in the Western world. As is disrespect, ignorant and otherwise.

Agreed, so long as its across the board. Others why pretend its freedom of expression they are defending?

Again, you are perfectly free to have your opinion about any topic you choose, as long as you don't derail threads to do it. We are talking about a Dutch film on Islam, we are not talking about the extermination of a people. Stay the fuck on topic.

Agreed, so long as its across the board. Others why pretend its freedom of expression they are defending?I'm 100% positive that if some Muslims make a film refuting each point - it will be fine to show such a film.

I think the peaceful Muslims should show themselves en masse and denounce all terrorism. I think they should denounce all the violence in the Koran. I think if they became the majority, no one would have any problems with Muslims.

I think the peaceful Christians should denounce what the Israelis are doing to the Palestinians and turn the other cheek. They should also protest en masse the Iraq war and all the suffering and blood shed it's causing.

I'm 100% positive that if some Muslims make a film refuting each point - it will be fine to show such a film.

How many people read the denouncement of terrorism by Muslims? How many read news sites about terrorism?

How much media attention was devoted to Ahmedinejad's mistranslated speech? How much to what it actually meant?

Never underestimate the role of the media in controlling what people think.

Which Muslims? Some would better assure that by not being unusually ridiculous, or developing a sense of proportion - even humor ? Others could simply note that ridicule is pretty well distributed, in the Western world. As is disrespect, ignorant and otherwise.

The ones who might have left behind 6 million dead in a war at home, perhaps.

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=77726


What perspective do you offer them on their violent religious tendencies?

Then, it should be the authoritative figures within Islam that take the initiative to stop these fundamentalists from acting out their violence. It is your responsibility to show THEM, not US that Islam is a peaceful religion.



Those people may attend anger management counseling sessions to help control their anger problems. That is not anyones issue but their own and has nothing to do with the making of films. If they are unable to control their anger and lash out in violence, they will be treated as criminals and convicted.
Sometimes there are things designed specifically to get people angry. And unfortunately, they succeed.
The thing is, just as you are right that those violent should be more diplomatic, the people causing the anger should also show more respect.

No, we were discussing how grownups and civilized people handle things when angered by the essentially trivial.
And that's exactly it, would they find it funny or be angered? I think you could. And we were trying to campare apples with apples - these provocations were not Dutch people going to Syria and projecting their movies on the public billboards.
But people will get angry regardless. And no, I don't think I can. I guarantee you some Danish patriotic fanatic (not that patriotism is bad though) will attack me if I did that.
No,that's not the reason.
What is the reason?
[/QUOTE]

But people will get angry regardless. And no, I don't think I can. I guarantee you some Danish patriotic fanatic (not that patriotism is bad though) will attack me if I did that. You jump from "angered" to "attack", still ignoring the bogus nature of the comparison (insulting the locals vs getting insulted by the locals). Can I assume this assumption of yours is based on your own religious society - you get mad, so you get violent, even over trivia ?

The ones who might have left behind 6 million dead in a war at home, perhaps. What's that got to do with movies in Holland ?
What perspective do you offer them on their violent religious tendencies? They should not bring them to Holland.

How many people read the denouncement of terrorism by Muslims? How many read news sites about terrorism?I just read an article in Time by one of the many many children of Bin Laden who said he is against terrorism. He even said, we need to defend "Arabs and Muslims" but in a peaceful manner.
Surely Time is a decent enough source? Anyway, aren't there Arabic News channels? Are the BBC and CNN the only News outlets in the World?

The truth of the matter is: A lot of people like to see religious nutters jumping up and down flaying their arms around their heads all while calling for the blood of infidels and saying Allah is Great. It simply makes for good watching for fat Americans after a long day of work. Kind of brings things into perspective on why their job as a janitor at the local 7-11 isn't all that bad. Kind of maintaining the engine of civilization itself :p

How much media attention was devoted to Ahmedinejad's mistranslated speech? How much to what it actually meant?I said this exact same thing to Reza. He said yeah that CNN did translate he words wrong once but he is always calling for the destruction of Israel so it's a mute point. Not that it matters.

Never underestimate the role of the media in controlling what people think.Hey I agree. That's why I only watch the Daily Show :)

What's that got to do with movies in Holland ?
They should not bring them to Holland.

They might have stayed home if it is was safer to, if they weren't being bombed for no reason. Ironic, that their bombers are teaching them about tolerance.

The number of Afghan asylum applications in industrialized countries continues to rise. Europe received some 100,000 Afghan asylum-seekers during the past five years. Most Afghans applied for asylum in Germany (30%), the Netherlands (25%) and the United Kingdom (13%)

Look, I've pissed people off when I said the Bible is a bunch of outdated fairytales. A Baptist I know refuses to talk about anything religious ever since I said the Earth was a hell of a lot older than 6 thousands years. Probably when some of you suggest Scientology is a money making scam it pisses devout Good Scientologists right off. Actually everyone makes fun of Scientology. South Park did that one where Chief quit. Yet we don't have to be in fear of our very lives over the parody. Lots of people say the Old Testament is full of violence and supports violence - actually, it is and does. So what? We don't have to leave to another country after saying as much.

That's the main difference.

There is a much larger number of Muslims who are either willing to kill, think killing can be justified or are happy to stand by while killing takes place - all in an attempt to appease this neurotic sky-daddy. It's just something we don't see much in other religious - at least now that the other pea in the pod, Xianity, had it's fill of blood lust.

Michael

Look, I've pissed people off when I said the Bible is a bunch of outdated fairytales. A Baptist I know refuses to talk about anything religious ever since I said the Earth was a hell of a lot older than 6 thousands years. Probably when some of you suggest Scientology is a money making scam it pisses devout Good Scientologists right off. Actually everyone makes fun of Scientology. South Park did that one where Chief quit. Yet we don't have to be in fear of our very lives over the parody. Lots of people say the Old Testament is full of violence and supports violence - actually, it is and does. So what? We don't have to leave to another country after saying as much.

That's the main difference.

There is a much larger number of Muslims who are either willing to kill, think killing can be justified or are happy to stand by while killing takes place - all in an attempt to appease this neurotic sky-daddy. It's just something we don't see much in other religious - at least now that the other pea in the pod, Xianity, had it's fill of blood lust.

Michael

Well if my people killed all your family and then you were forced to leave your destabilised, dismantled country and then on top of everything else, when the only thing that kept you going was perhaps your faith, the very people that had destroyed your family and country and perhaps prospects, preached to you that your faith was a violent thing responsible for all your troubles, you might be excused for punching the daylights out of a couple of those sanctimonious asses with their heads up their collective arses.

Yeah, the Dutch - war criminals in the ME. . . . . what between smoking pot :p

Yeah, the Dutch - war criminals in the ME. . . . . what between smoking pot :p

Nah just part of the Nato group thats responsible for this:

http://www.sciforums.com/showthread.php?t=77726

You guys are so clueless, aren't ya?

Then, it should be the authoritative figures within Islam that take the initiative to stop these fundamentalists from acting out their violence. It is your responsibility to show THEM, not US that Islam is a peaceful religion.
.

Duh, they are Muslims

The one thing they do not do is respect any authority.

Haven't you met enough Muslims to figure it out by now?

Oh come one SAM.

Either people have the right to criticize Islam and the Qur'an or they do not. In The Netherlands they do - done. Now, if people don't like it, then refute the criticism point for point. It's really that simple. I don't see what the argument is? We both agree that the guy has the right to make the movie, we both agree that you have the right to refute each of his points.

Done,

Michael

Apparently in the Netherlands they are also very good at demonising the people they are killing. Not much anyone can do about it.

They might have stayed home if it is was safer to, if they weren't being bombed for no reason. Ironic, that their bombers are teaching them about tolerance. So again - relevance to movies in Holland ?

Well if my people killed all your family and then you were forced to leave your destabilised, dismantled country and then on top of everything else, when the only thing that kept you going was perhaps your faith, the very people that had destroyed your family and country and perhaps prospects, preached to you that your faith was a violent thing responsible for all your troubles, you might be excused for punching the daylights out of a couple of those sanctimonious asses with their heads up their collective arses. I wouldn't be taking refuge in your country, if it wasn't a refuge.

Obviously these refugees have taken refuge in the wrong place entirely, if they have to make death threats against local home movie directors to be easy in their minds. And something should be done about finding them a better place to live - someplace where the Quran is treated with the requisite deference.

So again - relevance to movies in Holland ?

I wouldn't be taking refuge in your country, if it wasn't a refuge.

Obviously these refugees have taken refuge in the wrong place entirely, if they have to make death threats against local home movie directors to be easy in their minds. And something should be done about finding them a better place to live - someplace where the Quran is treated with the requisite deference.

Absolutely. They have a right not to be persecuted for their beliefs, after having suffered a war for seven years. Or longer, if you start counting from 1979

Apparently in the Netherlands they are also very good at demonising the people they are killing. Not much anyone can do about it.

Have you ever been to holland or like me to amsterdam, the dutch are incredibly friendly & open & very straight talking on all subjects they have no inibitions,they are very tolerant people, there country also has many immigrants, in the many times i have been there they all get on fine, the problems started when van goghs nephew was killed in a very brutal fashion by muslim fanatics, all because he dared to make a film about the way muslim women are treated, and he exercised his democtatic right to voice his opinion in film, holland has total freedoms, then we have a fanatic or fanatics hyped up my iran slaughtering him, this behaviour maybe excepted in pakistan or iran in holland it is not, if muslims born in democratic states can not handle democracy in all its forms they are all free to leave at any time to go back to the wonderful countries of pakistan & iran & have many happy a hour explaining to there religous police there why there hair is to long there clothes to colourful, or why they dont have a beard.

Van goph was a dutch icon, you dont go around slaying family members in such a barbaric fashion of a national hero.
I live in thailand i am a guest in thailand, i respect there culture & all there laws, if i lived in pakistan i would do the same, so why on earth do you have a problem with muslims respecting our culture when they choose to live in our countries.

Absolutely. They have a right not to be persecuted for their beliefs, after having suffered a war for seven years. Or longer, if you start counting from 1979

For someone who claims to be a scientist you really do have tunnel vision, democracy is about freedom to counter a persons belief, there ideas, where would science be today if nobody countered a belief or a silly idea of another scientist, you really talk like a communist, follow the party line, dont criticise just obey.
A true scientist is open minded on any issue, your mind is closed to only your own beliefs & ideas.

"persecuted"
In what way are muslims persecuted in the west?

Well in the uk

They get

free housing

free health care

free benefits $110 dollars a week for doing nothing but sit in a mosque all day if they choose to do so

some even have had cars given to them

childs benefit

free schooling



"persecuted"

do you know the meaning of this word?



Could you inform me of one muslim country that gives at least 2 of the above to there nationals?


If you are going to rant & rave in a forum at least have leg to stand on with your facts.

Sometimes there are things designed specifically to get people angry. And unfortunately, they succeed.
The thing is, just as you are right that those violent should be more diplomatic, the people causing the anger should also show more respect.

No, you are wrong, they do not have to show respect. Muslims have to show restraint from violence. That is the bottom line.

Have you ever been to holland or like me to amsterdam, the dutch are incredibly friendly & open & very straight talking on all subjects they have no inibitions,they are very tolerant people, there country also has many immigrants, in the many times i have been there they all get on fine, the problems started when van goghs nephew was killed in a very brutal fashion by muslim fanatics, all because he dared to make a film about the way muslim women are treated, and he exercised his democtatic right to voice his opinion in film, holland has total freedoms, then we have a fanatic or fanatics hyped up my iran slaughtering him, this behaviour maybe excepted in pakistan or iran in holland it is not, if muslims born in democratic states can not handle democracy in all its forms they are all free to leave at any time to go back to the wonderful countries of pakistan & iran & have many happy a hour explaining to there religous police there why there hair is to long there clothes to colourful, or why they dont have a beard.

Van goph was a dutch icon, you dont go around slaying family members in such a barbaric fashion of a national hero.
I live in thailand i am a guest in thailand, i respect there culture & all there laws, if i lived in pakistan i would do the same, so why on earth do you have a problem with muslims respecting our culture when they choose to live in our countries.

I doubt you've seen the movie, or you would not be spouting such gibberish.

Duh, they are Muslims

The one thing they do not do is respect any authority.

Haven't you met enough Muslims to figure it out by now?

Then, Muslims are all hypocrites.

Then, Muslims are all hypocrites.

No more than those who only cry freedom of expression when its Muslims they are attacking. But want to ban the Quran when its up to them.

No more than those who only cry freedom of expression when its Muslims they are attacking. But want to ban the Quran when its up to them.

No, much more. In fact, well beyond any reasonable doubt.

Your argument is either fallacious or you lying. Muslims have nothing to do with the film, which is based entirely on Islam.

Muslims have nothing to do with the film, which is based entirely on Islam.

Duh.

So if he were to have been sucessful in banning the Quran, it would be nothing to do with Muslims?

Tell him:

A Dutch member of parliament has called for the Quran to be banned in the Netherlands, describing it as a “fascist book” which calls on people to kill non-believers and rape women.

Geert Wilders, leader of the far-right Freedom Party, called for the ban in a letter published in De Volkskrant newspaper.

In his letter, Wilders compares the Muslim holy book to Mein Kampf, Adolf Hitler’s autobiography, and said the Quran has “no place in our constitutional state”.

Wilders acknowledged that his plan would not receive majority support in the Dutch parliament.

“I am fed up with Islam in the Netherlands: no more Muslim immigrants allowed. I am fed up with the worship of Allah and Muhammad in the Netherlands: no more mosques,” his letter concluded.

Duh.

So if he were to have been sucessful in banning the Quran, it would be nothing to do with Muslims?

Irrelevant. Stay on topic. This is about a film, not about banning the Quran. Once again, and again and again, you are free to comment on other things, but stop highjacking threads to do it.

The thread is about Iran asking to ban the film and Wilders crying freedom of expression. The same Wilders who is okay with Mein Kampf being banned, who wants no Muslims in his country, no mosques, no Islam and who petitioned to have the Quran banned.

I doubt you've seen the movie, or you would not be spouting such gibberish.

So because muslims live in our countries we are supposed to conform & become a police state, or else we get our mp's or journalists or movie moguls shot or there throats slashed.

Already there are dozens of new laws the british have to conform to all because the muslim fanatics have force our gov. to act.

The way it is going the uk like most european countries will be like pakistan in 20 years time, no freedoms, no democracy, just soldiers to launder all the countries money.

All so we can be PC & not upset the cuckoo in the nest, kneel, bow, pander, we must but criticise we can not.

From what i gather the muslim youth are on the rampage in denmark again, holland, france, when & where does it stop?

Its not us who needs to conform its them, its our culture not theres.

Sam,
you seem to think all of europe & america needs to give up all our freedoms & democracy won by many wars, and let muslims tell us what we can print, what we can say, & what movies we can make.

I remember a gay movie about a afghanistan boy last year, the kid & his family had to leave afganistan courtesy of sony or paramount picture for his own safety & live in the states, all because muslims cant handle homosexual films.

So sam lets do it your way 1st ban all criticism about islam worldwide, then as they want more concessions, then we ban all gay characters in movies & on TV, then we ban all porn movies & any actress can only be seen showing her eyelashes.

Sam you really need to grow up, your very answers to people are pathetic, the idea you study science is laughable, you cant see past your nose.

The thread is about Iran asking to ban the film

That is the extent of the OP. Now, try and stay on topic.

The thread is about Iran asking to ban the film and Wilders crying freedom of expression. The same Wilders who is okay with Mein Kampf being banned, who wants no Muslims in his country, no mosques, no Islam and who petitioned to have the Quran banned. So we are not talking about "the Dutch", or "the Muslims", or even freedom of expression - we are talking about whether this bigot is a bigot

and whether having a bigot around is a sufficient cause for death threats and violence from immigrants ?

The Quran is not banned. Wilder's film is not banned. The Dutch seem to have it figured out. Do the recent immigrants have it figured out ?

blah blah

So sam lets do it your way 1st ban all criticism about islam worldwide

blah blah blah.

No one is asking to ban criticism of Islam. But showing semi naked women on a prayer mat or tearing or burning the Quran is not criticism. It is provocation.

If a man circulates naked pictures of your mother that is not a valid criticism of her, no matter how ugly she looks without her clothes.

The same Wilders who is okay with Mein Kampf being banned, who wants no Muslims in his country, no mosques, no Islam and who petitioned to have the Quran banned.

Its called DEMOCRACY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!


He can say what he wants, he can petition for robert mugabe to be installed as the dutch prime minister, what someone says, & what the country does is another matter, he says no to islam, no to mosques, who cares waht he says???
Is he prime minister no, what are you saying we should put him in jail?

You have your head so stuck in countries that have no democracy, you cant seem to grasp we can say whatever we want to say, its called democracy again.

Look this word up & see what it means, judging by one muslim photo earlier in the thread our democracy means terroism to them, yeah where terroising the world with words.

Why are they so scared of words?

No one is asking to ban criticism of Islam. But showing semi naked women on a prayer mat or tearing or burning the Quran is not criticism. It is provocation.

That's too bad, isn't it? The problem lies not in the provocation, but in the resulting action.

If a man circulates naked pictures of your mother that is not a valid criticism of her, no matter how ugly she looks without her clothes.

Irrelevant. Totally off topic.

No one is asking to ban criticism of Islam. But showing semi naked women on a prayer mat or tearing or burning the Quran is not criticism. It is provocation.

If a man circulates naked pictures of your mother that is not a valid criticism of her, no matter how ugly she looks without her clothes.

The Quran is a book with paper inside, the bible is a book with paper inside, printed by man, as a scientist you should know that, what you think it has mystic powers, its the holy grail what?


"semi naked women on a prayer mat"

We were born naked what is your point, in what chapter of the bible or the Quran is there a dress code, & what shops do they say we must shop at wallmart, gucci?????

How come animals cant dress up like us, does god not allow animals to wear clothes?
Or is it because we have a brain & can make pretty little clothes.

You & muslims need to get your heads around this clothes issue, it just makes you all look stupid.
God is no fashion designer is he????????????????????

The Quran is a book with paper inside, the bible is a book with paper inside, printed by man, as a scientist you should know that, what you think it has mystic powers, its the holy grail what?


"semi naked women on a prayer mat"

We were born naked what is your point, in what chapter of the bible or the Quran is there a dress code, & what shops do they say we must shop at wallmart, gucci?????

How come animals cant dress up like us, does god not allow animals to wear clothes?
Or is it because we have a brain & can make pretty little clothes.

You & muslims need to get your heads around this clothes issue, it just makes you all look stupid.
God is no fashion designer is he????????????????????


So the aim is not criticism, is it? Its provocation.

Meh, there are a lot of banned films in the West as well as in other non-Muslim countries. Nothing anti-semitic is allowed to be published in most countries. Arabs are semitic therefore they may make a claim if they wish. Also, attacking Judasim is now seen as anti-semitism, same should apply for other religions.

Fact of the matter is that Wilders is an islamophobic nazi. If he really wanted to talk about religion and violence, he should first start with the religion he deems to be the core in his country.

Relax, people, it's not as if the movie declares muslims to be the "worst of creatures", or something along those lines. Or does it?

Now, that would be nasty, indeed.

Absolutely. They have a right not to be persecuted for their beliefs, it's funny that you think people should be taxed for their beliefs, hired differentially for their beliefs, and if you were a polytheistic Arab, murdered for your beliefs - - but Ooo Hooo Hoooo don't talk bad about the Qur'an. No no no ... just won't do.


If the Qur'an is Perfect then you have nothing to worry about. I mean come on, a Perfect book could never be used to promote hate and murder. Well, unless that was part of the "real world" ooo oooo could be a problem here...

:p

No one is asking to ban criticism of Islam. But showing semi naked women on a prayer mat or tearing or burning the Quran is not criticism. It is provocation. OMG - what is your point? Ergo they deserve to be murdered? Are Muslims animals that can't deal with a bit of "provocation"?

Where was SAM when piss Christ was made?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/de/Piss_Christ_by_Serrano_Andres_(1987).jpg






So SAM - can we have a picture of piss-Quran? I actually own a Qur'an. Can I piss on it and take a photograph? Or is that too provocotive? What about a Piss-Mohammad? Is that OK? Or should such an artist be murdered?


Please!


If Muslims don't like freedom or expression then they can go live in KSA hid their women under a rug and hang witches. The rest of us are moving into the next century. Hopefully by the end of this one we are free of most superstitutions.

Michael

superstitutions.

I like that word! Nice one, Michael. :thumbsup:

So the aim is not criticism, is it? Its provocation.

And when provoked, the Muslim murders? Is that acceptable to you?

Oh and RE provocation

Yeah, that's right. A lot of art is made provocative on purpose - sometimes the artist is simple asking people to think. Why is their a Piss Christ? Was it so that people were meant to stand back as say: Hey... why do I ascribe such feelings and emotions to this act of pissing on a statue of Christ?

Perhaps if there were a Christ, She may even think "Good on you".

In the past making a painting where the King was anything other than God's representative on Earth was grounds for death - slowly artists pushed the envelop and things changed.

As for the Dutch movie - maybe it's complete crap. Or maybe it's part crap. Maybe he has a couple good points in all that crap. Maybe the Qur'an is in some respects facious? Ever think that maybe there are some passages in the Qur'an that are bad? Maybe this notion that "I AM correct and you MUST be wrong" is Oooo I don't know - a bad way to think?


Watch the movie and refute the points. I'm sure you're eyes will not melt any more than a Xians melting upon seeing that post of Chirst being pissed on.


Michael

Oh yes and one last thing RE: provocation

This should serve as a reminder of just how f*cking hard it was and how bad thing had gotten in Europe for people that they were able to (a) move past God and into Enlightenment and (b) move past Kings and into Democracy. At every step of the way many good Xian people felt it was as wrong then to do those two things as many Muslim people think it is wrong to point out flaws in the Qur'an (of which there are for some people - like me, I think the book it fundamentally flawed, that's my personal opinion, mayeb there are some good rehashed points, but that's besides the point, I should have the freedom in my country to say hey I think this is stupid or etc...).
Many people back 500 years ago felt the same way as Muslims feel now.
As to the movie - probably it does have some points to make - but these will probably be drowned out in the overall hate. I think this hate is actually the fear of Holland becoming anything remotely close to the ME. Fair enough. Fear = Hate.
However, the picture by Van Gogh is a different manner. He was an artist trying to make a point. This is what artists do. This is why art, Opera, Ballet, scultor, painting, etc.. are all associated with the Rebirth and Enlightnement and this may also by why some forms of art are prohibited in Islamic countries. Human form for example, representation of Mohammad, etc... We can not allow ourselves to be inteimidated into not showing films like that. Or cartoons that make fun of Mohammad - anymore than we can ban piss Christ. Some people WILL be offended - that's too bad. Deal with it - - -peacefully. Certainly don't already start making exscuses for them! KNowing they will act violently should tell you something. That one could ALREADY (before the violence) try to excuse their actions should also tell you something about yourself.

We can not bring the ME into the modern era. Maybe they'll never progress here. That's OK. We can live with that. It's fine. There should always be some places on the Earth that serve as a reminder to the rest of us. But, we can not allow ourselves to be dragged back into the past either.

This is why I really think education of history and of religous history inparticular is very imporant to maintain what was hard-fought and won freedoms we have.

take another look at that Piss Christ - see anthing in all that piss??? ;)

Just a thought,
Michael

Michael, why do you insist on denying my refutations of your false views of Islamic teaching? I have told you why there are different taxed and that thats not forever. Ive told you killing people for their beliefs is not allowed. And yet you keep on sputing your ignorant, refuted views.

The fact of the matter is that Americans would get mad if, as you suggested, someoine pissed on the Constituion and took pics and glorified his act as some sort of freedom of speech. Now, i dont agree with rioting, but I understand where they come from. If that Danish newspaper was going for freedom of speech, it would not have blocked the publication of those Jesus cartoons as they were deemed too offensive to the Christians. Now, thats not to say I agree with publishing offensive material to Christians. You suggest that Sam would be happy if Jesus was shown in that light and I think that she absolutely wouldnt. Jesus is another Prophet of Islam and no Muslim would ever defile him or his name. Muslim countries do care about the sentiments of their population, hence Pakistan banning the Da Vinci Code because it was deemed offensive to Christians. Shame that that enlightened logic and compassion for other people is not yet fully integrated into Western Society.

And when provoked, the Muslim murders? Is that acceptable to you?

Is it acceptabe to provoke?

No, you are wrong, they do not have to show respect. Muslims have to show restraint from violence. That is the bottom line.

If not respect, then not ignorant disrespect. People who are morons deserve what's coming.

Michael, why do you insist on denying my refutations of your false views of Islamic teaching? I have told you why there are different taxed and that thats not forever. Ive told you killing people for their beliefs is not allowed. And yet you keep on sputing your ignorant, refuted views.Arsalan, I'm not saying you inparticular. I'm saying some other Islamic teachings and beleifs. Just like some Xians accept there si a Pope and other don't, some Muslims accept some things and other don't.

Many Islamic beleifs are pretty much the exact same as Xian one - while these beliefs are not a danger NOW they sure as hell were 500 years ago! We need to keep that in perspective.

I understand you don't think killing people because they are polytheistic is moral but other people do think so. Those people need to be refuted by people like you. Agreed?

I'll be first in line to depose of an athiest dictator should he try to impose some sort of bullshit athiestic dogma onto my fellow citizens - we're asking you do the same. Take a stand or someone else will do it for you. And when that happens you don't have cotrol over where and what the argument should be about.

:)

If you can anyway.

But, my overall point is we should allow these sorts of movies and then refute them point for point - or if they have a point here and there, think about it. Piss Christ asks people to stop and think. There is nothing wrong with that is there?

Michael


PS: I know many Muslims here in AU who were taught Arabic is God language, The Qur'an is the only true word of God, there are 4 times as many women as men in the World and any national statistics that suggest otherwise are lies, etc... these sorts of beliefs need confronting. If you guys don't do it then you're letting people like this guy do it for you. Which do you think is better? Do you want to be on the back foot? If not then get out there and make a movie!

Is it acceptabe to provoke?Yes it is.

Like I said, even the notion of Democracy was at one time VERY Provocative. It resulted in many people having their heads removed from their shoulders.

Michael

Arsalan, I'm not saying you inparticular. I'm saying some other Islamic teachings and beleifs. Just like some Xians accept there si a Pope and other don't, some Muslims accept some things and other don't.

Many Islamic beleifs are pretty much the exact same as Xian one - while these beliefs are not a danger NOW they sure as hell were 500 years ago! We need to keep that in perspective.

I understand you don't think killing people because they are polytheistic is moral but other people do think so. Those people need to be refuted by people like you. Agreed?

Some people may think that way but that doesnt make their particular beliefs Islamic. The fact is that a lot has been done. Lots of debates have been held and fatwas against terrorists issued. But the truth remains that the root of this problem in Muslim countries are parties that are still supported by the major Western Powers. Theres nothing we can do about that. We are doing our part. But people like you make it sound thats all there is to Islam and Muslims and attributing unislamic beliefs to Islam is unfair.

But, my overall point is we should allow these sorts of movies and then refute them point for point

This i agree with. Its also exactly what I will be doing after the movie is released.

PS: I know many Muslims here in AU who were taught Arabic is God language,

More than that, I believe it is the mother of all languages :p

The Qur'an is the only true word of God,

Why does it need confronting? A lot of people have tried to prove its not and have failed.

there are 4 times as many women as men in the World and any national statistics that suggest otherwise are lies, etc...

Dunno who would teach that.

Iran just threatened Israel again. I despise Iran. I wish W would just nuke their nuke facilities and get it over with.

http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1203283465824&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

:(

Jpost!! Omg!! Dont Tell Me You Get Your News From There?!!

Is it acceptabe to provoke?

Sure, why not? We provoke each other on these forums everyday. No big woop.

So, is it acceptable to murder because you don't like the content of a film?

If not respect, then not ignorant disrespect. People who are morons deserve what's coming.

Do they deserve to be murdered? That IS what you're saying, isn't it?

Jpost!! Omg!! Dont Tell Me You Get Your News From There?!!

I get my news from wherever it happens.

Some people may think that way but that doesnt make their particular beliefs Islamic. The fact is that a lot has been done. Lots of debates have been held and fatwas against terrorists issued. But the truth remains that the root of this problem in Muslim countries are parties that are still supported by the major Western Powers. Theres nothing we can do about that. We are doing our part. But people like you make it sound thats all there is to Islam and Muslims and attributing unislamic beliefs to Islam is unfair.There is no excuse for Muslims living in Western countries.

This i agree with. Its also exactly what I will be doing after the movie is released.Good

More than that, I believe it is the mother of all languages :p :bugeye:

It's never good to teach something like this. Actually, it's stupid.

Why does it need confronting? A lot of people have tried to prove its not and have failed.:bugeye:

Does it float? no? OK it's not perfect. Perfect books float didn'tchya know?

(note: Scientologist think Ronny Boy's words are Perfect too - that's equally not true because his books don't float either)

Dunno who would teach that.An idiot who dedicated their entire lives to reading the perfect book.


Funny huh?
Michael

If not respect, then not ignorant disrespect. People who are morons deserve what's coming.

Look bud, I'm perfectly willing to tear this argument down to it's roots if need be, but it will still boil down to the actions of violence, no matter how you slice it.

One side can sit there all day long with thumbs in ears, fingers extended outwards, palms swaying back and forth while they bray Nyah, Nyah, Nayh, and the other can sit and laugh. It is well beyond the bounds of rationale or reason that the other decides instead to go over and put a cap in ones ass.

How can this even remotely be an option?

There is no excuse for Muslims living in Western countries.

Ya, hence the protests.

:bugeye:

It's never good to teach something like this. Actually, it's stupid.

Why is it stupid?

:bugeye:

Does it float? no? OK it's not perfect. Perfect books float didn'tchya know?

(note: Scientologist think Ronny Boy's words are Perfect too - that's equally not true because his books don't float either)

Well, unfortunately your criteria doesnt apply now does it?

An idiot who dedicated their entire lives to reading the perfect book.

who? and what would be the point in teaching that?

I get my news from wherever it happens.

The JPost is an extremely biased newspaper. Not objective.

Ya, hence the protests.That's a good start. But they'll have to do much more.

Why is it stupid?Because (a) it is most certainly not true. Arabic is not the