Yes we can!

[S.A.M.]

President Barack Obama has approved the establishment of a special unit of terrorist interrogators based out of the FBI, senior administration officials said Monday.

The move comes in the wake of persistent criticism of questionable CIA interrogation techniques, such as waterboarding and the transfer of detainees to countries where torture is common.

On Monday, a 2004 CIA report detailing the use of unauthorized interrogation methods — including the threatened use of a gun and an electric drill — is expected to be made public.

The decision to place the FBI, rather than the CIA, in charge of the interrogation of suspected terrorists represents a major shift in U.S. national security policy.

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/0...eation-of-new-terrorist-interrogation-unit-2/

So, yes we can:

-continue rendition
-keep Guantanamo bay open
-continue bombing hapless civilians

Change we can believe in.

 

[superstring01]

After realizing that your links were anything but recent I debated about deleting your thread. First off, in order to make a good faith claim on these matters, you really should bother yourself with something a little more recent. Second off, you might actually want a link that supports your claims a little better. The whole point of the changes in this forum are aimed at obligating members to back up their claims with relative, timely information that is supported by an actual argument. If you can't manage that, then you can expect to have the thread be moderated. Good faith, SAM, where's yours?

Where does it say that we are continuing to render people to other nations? Hell, have you posted ANY link on that matter? Or are we just supposed to take your word for it?

As to Guantanamo, the article is about the continuation of military tribunals (which were set up, legally by the Congress to handle this matter) and NOT about keeping the detainess there. In fact, the whole accelerating process in the military tribunals is happening because Obama is demanding that each detainee be given their day in court. The Bush admin slowed the process because many within the administration knew that they wouldn't win the case within the tribunals. The process is not instantaneous, but people are being returned home (where they are accepted) and the process to bring them to the USA is moving forward. Obama doesn't just answer to himself on these matters: He has a Congress that he must consult with. In fact, your whole statement is an outright lie because the article admits that Obama's end-goal is to have the Gitmo prison closed by 2010.

As to your point about Afthanistan, Obama never campaigned on pulling out of Afghanistan. In fact, he stated quite clearly that he would make that the central focus (instead of Iraq) when he got elected. The article you provided is about 8 months old and is about the usage of unmanned drones in the above mentioned arena. Where did it say that the Obama administration was targeting innocent civilians? Since all of Al Queda are civilians, it's kind of pointless to state the fact that the USA is targeting civilians, because. . . well, that's exactly what the nation is doing when they attack terrorist

In fact, I think you know everything I just posted. You are one of the best informed people on this website and it's glaringly obvious that you left out a great deal of information in creating this hit peace. If you want to play stupid and have a tantrum about the USA, fine! More power to you. There's plenty of mud to throw. But unless you can actually come up with something better than this, well, I think you know where you're heading.

~String

 

[S.A.M.]

So, looking past all the window dressing.

1. What information has been released on the Gitmo detainees and their status?
2. On what basis will the FBI detain and interrogate terrorism suspects? Whats the ROE? Where are the facilities? Who will monitor the interrogations? Where is the transparency?
3. Yeah he did not say he would pull out of Afghanistan, he just continued that crappy policy as is.

So, what has changed, exactly? I want to see some change I can believe in.

 

[superstring01]

I asked you to provide information supporting the OP and this is what I get? SAM. Do I need to quote the forum rules for you?

1. What information has been released on the Gitmo detainees and their status?

Oh. I don't know. Pick up a news paper. People have recently been sent to places like Bermuda and Mauritius. Do a little digging. When you look ONLY for things that support your worldview, you'll never see anything else important, SAM.

2. On what basis will the FBI detain and interrogate terrorism suspects? Whats the ROE? Where are the facilities? Who will monitor the interrogations? Where is the transparency?

It's the FBI, the whole agency dedicated to investigating crimes without torturing them, who has a robust oversight mechanism with many facilities all over the world. I'll wait until the program comes online before I start bitching about it.

3. Yeah he did not say he would pull out of Afghanistan, he just continued that crappy policy as is.

Oh, so you admit that your expectations were either incorrect or that you posted this point in order to create some sort of false impression about the Obama administration?

So, what has changed, exactly? I want to see some change I can believe in.

Well, first, you're not a citizen of the USA, so the "change" promised in the campaign wasn't really aimed at you. Second off, much has changed and is still changing. Moving the ship of state of the USA has been likened to moving a supertanker at sea. It doesn't turn on a dime. I think you know about these changes and the direction that Obama is trying to take the USA, but I think you leave them out because it serves your usual myopic "hate everything the USA does" purpose.

~String

 

[S.A.M.]

I asked you to provide information supporting the OP and this is what I get? SAM. Do I need to quote the forum rules for you?



Oh. I don't know. Pick up a news paper. People have recently been sent to places like Bermuda and Mauritius. Do a little digging. When you look ONLY for things that support your worldview, you'll never see anything else important, SAM.

So they've been deported without any attempt to publish their stories or testimonies? Is this how war crimes are investigated?

It's the FBI, the whole agency dedicated to investigating crimes without torturing them, who has a robust oversight mechanism with many facilities all over the world. I'll wait until the program comes online before I start bitching about it.

And I recall that it was the FBI that was in charge of the whole shebang to begin with who conveniently dropped the ball on 9/11 and have "no hard evidence" against Osama

Oh, so you admit that your expectations were either incorrect or that you posted this point in order to create some sort of false impression about the Obama administration?

No merely that I don't see any change, just some musical chairs.

Well, first, you're not a citizen of the USA, so the "change" promised in the campaign wasn't really aimed at you. Second off, much has changed and is still changing. Moving the ship of state of the USA has been likened to moving a supertanker at sea. It doesn't turn on a dime. I think you know about these changes and the direction that Obama is trying to take the USA, but I think you leave them out because it serves your usual myopic "hate everything the USA does" purpose.

~String

I wonder how many people have to die before we see this mythical change.

This final act by Obama has simply put him in the also rans as far as I am concerned. He's just another American, willing to destroy people and countries for his political goals. Nope move on over, there is nothing new to see here.

 

[Ganymede]

While we're on the topic of deleting threads. Madanthonywayne has 3 different threads relating to Healthcare. If we're going to be consistent here please don't play favorites.

 

[otheadp]

Do you mean that ... Obama has lied to you and on foreign policy he is continuing as G.W. 2.0? (or... actually, Cheney 2.0)

*gasp*

Well, I say!

 

[GeoffP]

So they've been deported without any attempt to publish their stories or testimonies? Is this how war crimes are investigated?

Actually, why would you expect these stories to be published? Not every crime hits the papers, and there are quite a lot of internees. Would the publication of these stories sway public opinion in any way? Are they accurate? Who would decide?

I'm undecided on Afghanistan.

 

[S.A.M.]

I would like to hear the testimonies. The officers can confirm or refute them as they like with the evidence they have and medical professionals can examine the victims for evidence of torture.

The "internees" are much less than 6 million.

 

[spidergoat]

According to the original article, it says Obama is appointing a special interrogation unit in response to all the prisoner abuse that has been going on. Your conclusion that he is continuing as Bush did is false. It is exactly the opposite. He never said he would pull out of Afghanistan, and the UAV missile strikes have been highly effective on our desired targets, in spite of some innocent deaths.

 

[S.A.M.]

Will any of these abusers be tried in an American court?

http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/06/18/guantanamo-report.html

Those examined reported being tortured or abused, including sexually, and described being shocked with electrodes, beaten, shackled, stripped of their clothes, deprived of food and sleep, and spit and urinated on.
Prisoner subjected to electrical shocks 3 times a day

The Associated Press has obtained a report outlining the treatment of two Iraqi prisoners. One, identified only as Yasser, reported being subjected to electric shocks three times and being sodomized with a stick. His thumbs bore round scars consistent with shocking. He would not allow a full rectal exam.

Another Iraqi, identified only as Rahman, reported he was humiliated by being forced to wear women's underwear, was stripped naked and paraded in front of female guards, and was shown pictures of other naked detainees. The psychological exam found that Rahman suffered from post-traumatic stress disorder and had sexual problems related to his humiliation.

The Physicians for Human Rights report came as the U.S. Senate's armed services committee revealed documents showing military lawyers warned the Pentagon that methods it was using following the Sept. 11, 2001, airplane hijackings violated military, U.S. and international law. Those objections were overruled by a top Pentagon lawyer

Can we expect to see a publication with the names of those involved in prisoner abuse a la Nuremberg and conviction and sentencing thereof?

Or is terrorism acceptable when it is home grown?

 

[spidergoat]

I certainly hope they will be prosecuted, as well as the people that ordered it.

 

[S.A.M.]

Me too. At the very least, I'd like to see them dishonorably discharged.

 

[hypewaders]

Gulf News, August 25, 2009: Obama's Stance on Detainees is disappointing

the surprise revelation came Tuesday that the Obama administration will continue the practice of sending terror suspects to third countries for detention and interrogation. Human-rights advocates condemned the decision, saying it would allow the transfer of prisoners to countries with a history of torture.

AndyWorthington, July 27, 2009 It’s Worse Than You Think

The proposals put forward by the Task Force — and clearly endorsed by Obama — are bitterly disappointing, not only because they are so shamefully dismissive of the presumption of innocence, and because they reveal a desire to further turn the judicial system on its head by endorsing preventive detention, but also because they are cowardly in the extreme...

The authors of the report... indicate that they are involved in an ongoing analysis of a number of questions relating to the future, including “what the rules and boundaries should be for any future detention under the rule of war,” ignoring, both in the present, and in their deliberations about the future, that the answer has, in fact, been obvious all along, and that, as it appears from this hideous and worrying document, all the talk of alternative trial systems and preventive detention is nothing more than a conjuring trick to disguise policies that, essentially, cleave closely to the arrogant and lawless innovations conceived by senior officials in the Bush administration.

And the answer that has been obvious all along? It goes like this: If your enemy is a combatant, seized in wartime, then you hold him as a prisoner of war according to the Geneva Conventions, which prohibit inhumane treatment and coerced interrogations, until the end of hostilities. And if your enemy is a terrorist, then you hand him over to interrogators who know how to get a man to talk without using torture, according him the procedural protections in the Bill of Rights, and you put him on trial in a federal court.

Congressman Dennis Kucinich, August 25, 2009

The U.S. has an obligation to ensure that our actions are consistent with the rule of law. There is little reason to think that measures to reform rendition can ensure an end to the abuses caused by extraordinary rendition. It appears that under the reforms prisoners can still be transferred to countries who have previously engaged in torture. Furthermore, diplomatic assurances have been proven ineffective in the past. It is notable that the U.S. has engaged in extraordinary rendition of innocent individuals who were misidentified. It is also notable that no detainee transferred by the rendition process has ever had their case heard by a justice system.

The people of the United States have clearly voiced and voted for a new direction in U.S. policy. The people of the U.S. did not choose the new administration based on the premise that rendition could be done better. The Obama administration must stop this illegal policy that leads to greater human rights violations.

If the U.S. does not act to end extraordinary rendition we are simply playing a new rendition of an old song—torture.

I too am disappointed in Obama's leadership. He is not championing reform, and without meaningful reform the USA is still bleeding out our credibility like we've never done before. We're dying as a respected world power.

 

[GeoffP]

Out of curiosity, when was the US respected by everyone as a world power?

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

Respect as a world power died with the Bush administration.

Superstring its called the crusade and hijacking of the WEP forums. Its not 'hate everything' the US does its hate everything non muslim westerners do. Good faith and all

 

[quadraphonics]

So they've been deported without any attempt to publish their stories or testimonies?

Since when is the US in the business of publishing stories?

You would prefer that these people were kept at Guantanamo so that they could... testify?

Is there some impediment to the former detainees seeking to publish, or pursue legal redress against the US, created by their residence in other countries?

Is this how war crimes are investigated?

"Publishing" of stories and testimonies is not how war crimes are investigated.

 

[hypewaders]

Out of curiosity, when was the US respected by everyone as a world power?

We were King of the Road, emerging from the Depression and WWII. But we badly lost our way after the Soviet collapse, and 9-11 drove us right around the bend. We don't know who we are, and where we're going at the moment, but standing on principle is the new start that I want to see.

 

[Mrs.Lucysnow]

We were King of the Road, emerging from the Depression and WWII. But we badly lost our way after the Soviet collapse, and 9-11 drove us right around the bend. We don't know who we are, and where we're going at the moment, but standing on principle is the new start that I want to see.

If only there was a consensus on what those principles are. The U.S needs to go back and seek out its core beliefs and yet still be unafraid to change and adapt them to a new world, reality and obstacles.

I agree with you one when the U.S first was led astray.

 

[GeoffP]

We were King of the Road, emerging from the Depression and WWII. But we badly lost our way after the Soviet collapse, and 9-11 drove us right around the bend. We don't know who we are, and where we're going at the moment, but standing on principle is the new start that I want to see.

Weeeell even in those hallowed days there was a slightly gamy stink to US foreign policy, as described by some quarters: Greece, that blind eye to Spain for so many years, nuclear weapons build-up, arms to the Indo-China War, and so on. Was the US really above all criticism in those periods?