WTC Conspiracy Thread (merged)

GeoffP said:
....it just slipped their minds that WTC 7 was also readied for destruction and that they were supposed to crash a plane into it? Did they forget to hijack one, or what?....
I think patriot Americans, the real People of USA over powered the CIA hired pilots of the plane supposd to be crashed in WTC 7. So the US military was told to kill them all in the air.


BUT there were Detonators already placed all over WTC 7 which could have provided proof of conspiracy on 9/11 itself hence .....

wtc7_collapse_sm.gif
 
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lets not ignore the kinetic energy of a 80 ton aircraft smacking into the WTC. That would cause a decent amount of structural damage.

So they had this elaborate plan to take out the WTC and didnt consider how it should fall? that strikes me as unlikely.
 
I'll get on those sources for you later. But first;

another thing
steel weakens way before it melts

TRUE!

But think carefully if that was the case.. you would see the structure begin to weaken right? It would bend and sway just like plastic sags and melts when you begin to heat it. But that's not what happened.

lets not ignore the kinetic energy of a 80 ton aircraft smacking into the WTC. That would cause a decent amount of structural damage.

Kinetic energy you say?! I'd say the plane was travelling at 600kph, since they needed to hit a building.. Ke = M x V^2 => (8 x 10^4) x (6 x 10^2) = 48,000,000 Newtons of kinetic energy.
 
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"The buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel."

From Kevin R. Ryan
Site Manager of the Environmental Health Laboratories
South Bend, Indiana
(Company site - www.ehl.cc)

A division of Underwriters Laboratories, Inc.
(Company site - www.ul.com)

To Frank Gayle
Deputy Chief of the Metallurgy Division
Material Science and Engineering Laboratory
National Institute of Standards and Technology
NIST and the World Trade Center at wtc.nist.gov
Dr. Gayle biography wtc.nist.gov/pi/wtc_profiles.asp?lastname=gayle

From: Kevin R Ryan/SBN/ULI
To: frank.gayle@nist.gov
Date: 11/11/2004

Dr. Gayle,

Having recently reviewed your team's report of 10/19/04, I felt the need to contact you directly.

As I'm sure you know, the company I work for certified the steel components used in the construction of the WTC buildings. In requesting information from both our CEO and Fire Protection business manager last year, I learned that they did not agree on the essential aspects of the story, except for one thing - that the samples we certified met all requirements. They suggested we all be patient and understand that UL was working with your team, and that tests would continue through this year. I'm aware of UL's attempts to help, including performing tests on models of the floor assemblies. But the results of these tests appear to indicate that the buildings should have easily withstood the thermal stress caused by pools of burning jet fuel.

There continues to be a number of "experts" making public claims about how the WTC buildings fell. One such person, Dr. Hyman Brown from the WTC construction crew, claims that the buildings collapsed due to fires at 2000F melting the steel (1). He states "What caused the building to collapse is the airplane fuel ? burning at 2,000 degrees Fahrenheit. The steel in that five-floor area melts." Additionally, the newspaper that quotes him says "Just-released preliminary findings from a National Institute of Standards and Technology study of the World Trade Center collapse support Brown's theory."

We know that the steel components were certified to ASTM E119. The time temperature curves for this standard require the samples to be exposed to temperatures around 2000F for several hours. And as we all agree, the steel applied met those specifications. Additionally, I think we can all agree that even un-fireproofed steel will not melt until reaching red-hot temperatures of nearly 3000F (2). Why Dr. Brown would imply that 2000F would melt the high-grade steel used in those buildings makes no sense at all.

The results of your recently published metallurgical tests seem to clear things up (3), and support your team's August 2003 update as detailed by the Associated Press (4), in which you were ready to "rule out weak steel as a contributing factor in the collapse". The evaluation of paint deformation and spheroidization seem very straightforward, and you noted that the samples available were adequate for the investigation. Your comments suggest that the steel was probably exposed to temperatures of only about 500F (250C), which is what one might expect from a thermodynamic analysis of the situation.

However the summary of the new NIST report seems to ignore your findings, as it suggests that these low temperatures caused exposed bits of the building's steel core to "soften and buckle"(5). Additionally this summary states that the perimeter columns softened, yet your findings make clear that "most perimeter panels (157 of 160) saw no temperature above 250C". To soften steel for the purposes of forging, normally temperatures need to be above 1100C (6). However, this new summary report suggests that much lower temperatures were be able to not only soften the steel in a matter of minutes, but lead to rapid structural collapse.

This story just does not add up. If steel from those buildings did soften or melt, I?m sure we can all agree that this was certainly not due to jet fuel fires of any kind, let alone the briefly burning fires in those towers. That fact should be of great concern to all Americans. Alternatively, the contention that this steel did fail at temperatures around 250C suggests that the majority of deaths on 9/11 were due to a safety-related failure. That suggestion should be of great concern to my company.

There is no question that the events of 9/11 are the emotional driving force behind the War on Terror. And the issue of the WTC collapse is at the crux of the story of 9/11. My feeling is that your metallurgical tests are at the crux of the crux of the crux. Either you can make sense of what really happened to those buildings, and communicate this quickly, or we all face the same destruction and despair that come from global decisions based on disinformation and "chatter".

Thanks for your efforts to determine what happened on that day. You may know that there are a number of other current and former government employees that have risked a great deal to help us to know the truth. I've copied one of these people on this message as a sign of respect and support. I believe your work could also be a nucleus of fact around which the truth, and thereby global peace and justice, can grow again. Please do what you can to quickly eliminate the confusion regarding the ability of jet fuel fires to soften or melt structural steel.

1. http://www.boulderweekly.com/archive/102104/coverstory.html

2. CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, 61st edition, pg D-187

3. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/P3MechanicalandMetAnalysisofSteel.pdf

4. http://www.voicesofsept11.org/archive/911ic/082703.php

5. http://wtc.nist.gov/media/NCSTACWTCStatusFINAL101904WEB2.pdf (pg 11)

6. http://www.forging.org/FIERF/pdf/ffaaMacSleyne.pdf

Kevin Ryan
Site Manager
Environmental Health Laboratories

I highlighted the necessary parts. Okay no "high-grade" steel was mentioned, my mistake. However, that steel was forged and imported from Japan.. the best steel makers in the world along with Germany.
 
Hurricane Angel said:
I highlighted the necessary parts. Okay no "high-grade" steel was mentioned, my mistake. However, that steel was forged and imported from Japan.. the best steel makers in the world along with Germany.
These were new buildings, so better equiped to handel fire, but the plane had already taken out most of the supporting beams so the collapse is indeed possible, BUT only on the upper side of the plane not below the fire,

The important question is can the collapse propagate into a Dominos effect ?

Look at the failed demolishions attempts, buildings are very strong, Fires at very lower floors in past couldnt collapse buildings much taller, ie. with mush more weight forces on belower floors.

However the WTC 7 shows that there musta been 3rd plane in plan by CIA, which failed.
 
Singularity said:
The important question is can the collapse propagate into a Dominos effect ?
yes when you consider that each floor of wtc 1 a nd 2 was approx. one acre in size and covered with 3 or 4 inches of concrete
 
Hurricane Angel said:
Amazing treasure hunting skills Captain Hook, you have redeemed your own stupidity by pointing out a misnomer on my part? Not really, your original comment was many magnitudes more retarded. And can you cut the "oh goodie/jinkies!" sarcastic crap, its annoying.

Raight away, Raggy. Rid you rerute my rargument? Heeheeheeheehee! :D

1) If the building was INTENSELY burning, like the twin towers (which is unlikely because WTC 7 didn't have a load of fuel dumped on it), it would have burned to the ground except for its steel structure.

It looks like it was partially burning, not intensely. Considering that the fire department was about 100% busy with trying to dig people out of the wreckage, would it have been a good idea to let the thing burn itself out?

Answer: no.

2) Steel doesn't melt in a fire, ever. WTC was made of high grade steel that allowed it to resist heat higher than regular steel (2500 F).

I highlighted the necessary parts. Okay no "high-grade" steel was mentioned, my mistake. However, that steel was forged and imported from Japan.. the best steel makers in the world along with Germany.

So not high grade steel, then. Ruuving right arong...

3) If the building were actually to catastrophically collapse, it would have splattered all over the neighbourhood. Why would anyone waste time with expensive explosives if fire will make it collapse just the same?

'Expensive' explosives over simply letting the thing turn into a giant conflagration with associated health risks from smoke in the air, falling debris and - oh, yeah - FIRE. Falling on people, cars, flaming bits drifting towards other buildings in a wind fan the size of New frigging York.

'Expensive' explosives vs. the above risk.

Well, when you put the fire idea like that...it totally makes no sense at all.

:m:

Captain Geoff
 
It looks like it was partially burning, not intensely. Considering that the fire department was about 100% busy with trying to dig people out of the wreckage, would it have been a good idea to let the thing burn itself out?

Answer: no.

I don't understand your reply at all.. are you saying that WTC 7 collapsed just like the twin towers because it was burning less intense?

'Expensive' explosives vs. the above risk.

Well, when you put the fire idea like that...it totally makes no sense at all.

Again... what? The government says WTC 7 burned to the ground, but you are saying (I believe) that they decided to go with explosives in order to not let it burn to the ground. So 1) You believe they are lying about WTC 7 burning down? and 2) a building takes weeks to be prepared for implosion... can you explain the logic and probability of doing this in a burning building?
 
The FEMA report said it burned down... and it also said the WTC 1/2 also burned down. Now I don't know if you can put 2 and 2 together....


links to your sources?

All you have to do is google "fema report wtc 7" and you'll probably get it, to make your life easier, I did it for you, straight from FEMA's conclusion;

This office building was built over an electrical substation and a power plant, comparable in size to that operated by a small commercial utility. It also stored a significant amount of diesel oil and had a structural system with numerous horizontal transfers for gravity and lateral loads.

The loss of the east penthouse on the videotape suggests that the collapse event was initiated by the loss of structural integrity in one of the transfer systems. Loss of structural integrity was likely a result of weakening caused by fires on the 5th to 7th floors. The specifics of the fires in WTC 7 and how they caused the building to collapse remain unknown at this time. Although the total diesel fuel on the premises contained massive potential energy, the best hypothesis has only a low probability of occurrence. Further research, investigation, and analyses are needed to resolve this issue.

The collapse of WTC 7 was different from that of WTC 1 and WTC 2. The towers showered debris in a wide radius as their external frames essentially "peeled" outward and fell from the top to the bottom. In contrast, the collapse of WTC 7 had a relatively small debris field because the facade came straight down, suggesting an internal collapse. Review of video footage indicates that the collapse began at the lower floors on the east side. Studies of WTC 7 indicate that the collapse began in the lower stories, either through failure of major load transfer members located above an electrical substation structure or in columns in the stories above the transfer structure. Loss of strength due to the transfer trusses could explain why the building imploded, with collapse initiating at an interior location. The collapse may have then spread to the west, causing interior members to continue collapsing. The building at this point may have had extensive interior structural failures that then led to the collapse of the overall building, including the cantilever transfer girders along the north elevation, the strong diaphragms at the 5th and 7th floors, and the seat connections between the interior beams and columns at the building perimeter.

Notice the bolded parts. The first part I bolded states that the fires clearly caused it to collapse, aided by the debris from WTC 1 and 2... now wait a second, didn't PEOPLE survive that very same collapse when they hid under cars? And now one of the most solid buildings (WTC 7 was straddling that electric substation, remember and it required to have extra thick steel beams, by law) couldn't handle what a bunch of humans could?

The second bolded part is something I just noticed, you have to admit that they are trying extra hard to justify the implosion of the building.

http://www.prisonplanet.com/011904wtc7.html In this video Larry Silverstein admits to 'pulling' the WTC 7... what more do you want?

If you'll excuse me, its 8pm and I'm going to go get hammered.
 
deicide128 said:
ok so they took it down whats the point now? I am missing it completely.

Because of this "terrorrism", laws are being changed.
America was created on the basis of freedom of religion.
That has to change, for the scriptures in Revelations 13 to come to pass.
Eventually all churches except those ok'ed by a government panel or the world council of churches will be banned - including the real christian churches, which are not organised religions or approved by the council...
There was a Beast, and is coming an Image to the Beast.
The "beast" was Rome and today there is being created an "Image" to the beast.......with the same power to kill the first one had.
This is just what happened in "the great inqusition" when the roman state united with the false roman christian church in 325 A.D. or so and threw the world into a 1000 years dark age, when anyone who differed with or questioned the popes authority was killed as a heritic.
All the real christians were persecuted to death, thats how the catholic church took over, and hijacked christianty for 1000 years untill reformers, with messages from God like Martin Luther, and John Westley protested against catholicism....thats where they get the term...."protestant".
Thats what happens durring the great tribulation, and can't you see it lining up for that now.
 
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Hurricane Angel said:
All you have to do is google "fema report wtc 7" and you'll probably get it, to make your life easier, I did it for you, straight from FEMA's conclusion;
okay, now give me the link so i can go to the website and read it myself
 
I can see now, how your complacency guides your intelligence/lack thereof. In order to learn something new, you kind of have to do it yourself.. yes? That's why people who have been spoon-fed their entire lives end up losing the family fortune within one generation.

But alas, here you go:

http://www.fema.gov/pdf/library/fema403_ch5.pdf

You'll find what you're looking for in sections 5.6.1, 5.6.2, and the conclusion.

My personal curiosity is why you expected me to do this for you? Is it because I have to be the one to prove a point and therefore also search for the sources I directed you towards? Quite redundant, you could have found this 4 hours before my reply if you simply googled "WTC FEMA report", no? But you know this, and you probably expected me to come up short with my sources..
 
Hurricane Angel said:
My personal curiosity is why you expected me to do this for you? Is it because I have to be the one to prove a point and therefore also search for the sources I directed you towards? Quite redundant, you could have found this 4 hours before my reply if you simply googled "WTC FEMA report", no? But you know this, and you probably expected me to come up short with my sources..
when you make a statement it is your obligation to back it up with references when asked
 
I'll have a look at the links - but I don't know that it takes weeks to set up a demolition. Hell, the right teams can have it ready in a few hours, as far as I know.

Geoff
 
Hurricane Angel said:
Notice the bolded parts. The first part I bolded states that the fires clearly caused it to collapse, aided by the debris from WTC 1 and 2... now wait a second, didn't PEOPLE survive that very same collapse when they hid under cars? And now one of the most solid buildings (WTC 7 was straddling that electric substation, remember and it required to have extra thick steel beams, by law) couldn't handle what a bunch of humans could?

Yeah but they took down other buildings in the area too, didn't they? There were like two buildings in close proximity to WTC 1 and 2 that they also got rid of, I'm almost sure of it.

Leaving these things up and apparently burning is a hugely dangerous thing. I'll check your links but it still doesn't strike me as out of probable practice.

Geoff
 
Singularity said:
I think patriot Americans, the real People of USA over powered the CIA hired pilots of the plane supposd to be crashed in WTC 7. So the US military was told to kill them all in the air.


BUT there were Detonators already placed all over WTC 7 which could have provided proof of conspiracy on 9/11 itself hence .....

wtc7_collapse_sm.gif

Here's a question, too:

If any detonators were found in the WTC rubble, that would have blown the entire thing. To keep a plot like that quiet, you'd have the risk that any of the searchers - some of which were volunteers, thousands of people in all - could have found such a device. Or any explosive hardware, frankly. This also would be a bad, bad risk to take. I'd imagine that a fair chunk of the firemen would know what a detonator looked like; they'd be a little pissed if they imagined that their 'brother firemen' were crushed for a giant conspiracy theory.

Geoff
 
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