Would an intelligently financed UBI be dangerous for the environment?

[sculptor]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz(attack->defense---zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-----boring)
that being "said"

It seems most likely that a UBI that would exclusively give money to the poor would boost the gdp if the country.
If you give money to the financially well off it will have little effect on their spending habits.
However if you give money to the poor, they will spend it and then the economy benefits from the multiplier effect. At a minimum, one could expect that for every dollar given to the poor, the gdp would grow by $1.20, and, most likely by over $1.50
so, It seems most likely that:
A well regulated UBI is actually a good investment on a national scale.


........................
Long ago, Henry Ford raised his employees wages significantly---which had 2 effects,
1) a more stable workforce
and
2) employees who could afford to buy his products

 

[Dennis Tate]

If you are concerned about debt, given everyone in Canada 500/month forever isn't the way to do reduce debt.

Debt is high because politicians spend more than they take in. Simple.

You can't continue to spend more and reduce taxes. The U.S. spends over 600 billion a year just on the military.

Interest rates aren't even high now. They are at historic lows.

Actually...... giving an unconditional income supplement for life.....
to all Canadians that is created through our own Bank of Canada could be the only way
to get Canadians as well as our three levels of government out of debt.

At this time the only Canadian dollars that are created that do not produce
interest owing.... are the printed Canadian notes. The entire money supply here in
Canada is produced in a manner that creates interest owing..... which causes all types of debt
to grow and grow and grow.

One of the reasons for this is that the Banking Class have for centuries felt that they need
to keep ordinary people running like gerbils on a treadmill.... or we would become lazy and not work.

There is also the motivator of protecting the environment from our bad habits... .which frankly is
a somewhat valid concern.

intelligently financed
can you give a brief description of this in a basic process of where the money comes from & how it gets to people & in what form of currency ?
very simple
very brief

that is a very tiny focus of something that detracts from the over all subject of market regulation
specifics in personal income tax evasion are mostly irrelevant to corporate tax regulation & legal regulations around financial entity's, financial scams, ponsy schemes & pyramid schemes.
consumer/business anti trust anti piracy copy-write laws
are all forms of regulation

have you had to be qualified in international financial compliance to deal with private financial documents & money ?
i have
so i am familiar with Australian, American and British financial compliance laws & regulations.

you need to be able to demonstrate you know what your talking about
unlike some like Seattle who bullshits constantly about supposedly knowing financial regulations but doesn't



you need to learn the answers or you are just a PR propaganda puppet conspiracy theorist spouting endless fake news and fake media

if you cant provide an answer & discuss the subject your raising to talk about
then you need to stop changing the subject and learn the conversation that your attempting to have.

religious preachers spout off no end of half truths and fake news fake facts all jumbled together with no logic or science
you are getting very close to that.
im sure that is not your intention ?
to be just a loud shouting voice that never learns
(i realise there is a lot of things to learn)



if that is true
then interest rates control national economy
which is half correct
but removing the single idea and suggesting it is the root cause
is a false fact
who told you that ?

"anti money lending" agenda's
Muslims & communists & some other religious sects prohibit interest charges

interest is not the enemy
it is just a tool not a financial tool of "interest" because today it is interest !
tomorrow it is minimum wage
the day after it is income tax brackets
the goal posts are constantly shifted to service the cult/religion/preacher/ideology
those who demand society be slave to the tool are the problem !
those who oppose new regulations are the problem !
those who oppose evolution and social reforms are the problem !

In my opinion nobody else has ever addressed this question quite like retired Canadian Minister of Defence Mr. Paul Hellyer.

In my opinion Mr. Paul Hellyer is courageous and amazingly well informed on several critical topics that most of us have been deceived on.

End tax and financial slavery now with Paul Hellyer (!ThatChannel.com 2013-03m-12)
23,886 views

 

[Dennis Tate]

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz(attack->defense---zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz-----boring)
that being "said"

It seems most likely that a UBI that would exclusively give money to the poor would boost the gdp if the country.
If you give money to the financially well off it will have little effect on their spending habits.
However if you give money to the poor, they will spend it and then the economy benefits from the multiplier effect. At a minimum, one could expect that for every dollar given to the poor, the gdp would grow by $1.20, and, most likely by over $1.50
so, It seems most likely that:
A well regulated UBI is actually a good investment on a national scale.


........................
Long ago, Henry Ford raised his employees wages significantly---which had 2 effects,
1) a more stable workforce
and
2) employees who could afford to buy his products

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

.....(BUT in order to get it to the poor I have to promote giving it to all citizens and legal residents as advocated by economist Milton Friedman..... that way NO BUREAUCRACY to watch over it is needed)!

 

[Dennis Tate]

Do you have a link (any link) that shows that I "bullshit constantly" about knowing financial regulations? I worked in international finance so I do know something about that area but I'm not an expert on "regulations" and I don't think I've ever said anything about that.

Show where I've said anything like that. You can't, of course. I have dealt in letters of credit and other forms of trade financing including more esoteric forms such as foreign bills purchased.

I'm guessing your experience in "private" regulations is sending money to or from your relatives in other countries. Am I correct?

I hope that you rather enjoy the video that I just posted by retired Canadian Minister of Defence Mr. Paul Hellyer?

He can explain all of these things far better than I possibly could.

 

[Seattle]

I hope that you rather enjoy the video that I just posted by retired Canadian Minister of Defence Mr. Paul Hellyer?

He can explain all of these things far better than I possibly could.

Why are you quoting a response that I made to Rainbow?

 

[Seattle]

Actually...... giving an unconditional income supplement for life.....
to all Canadians that is created through our own Bank of Canada could be the only way
to get Canadians as well as our three levels of government out of debt.

At this time the only Canadian dollars that are created that do not produce
interest owing.... are the printed Canadian notes. The entire money supply here in
Canada is produced in a manner that creates interest owing..... which causes all types of debt
to grow and grow and grow.

One of the reasons for this is that the Banking Class have for centuries felt that they need
to keep ordinary people running like gerbils on a treadmill.... or we would become lazy and not work.

You logic is that you want to get Canada out of debt by deflating the currency. Regarding the statement about people becoming lazy and not working...you are doing menial jobs so that you can take the Friday off and follow the Orthodox Jews in your prayer schedule.

If everyone did something similar, wouldn't that add to the problem rather than help the problem?

 

[Dennis Tate]

You logic is that you want to get Canada out of debt by deflating the currency. Regarding the statement about people becoming lazy and not working...you are doing menial jobs so that you can take the Friday off and follow the Orthodox Jews in your prayer schedule.

If everyone did something similar, wouldn't that add to the problem rather than help the problem?

True..... but I do about a thousand hours of volunteerism annually as a writer and I attempt to the best of my ability to address huge problems that most experts are afraid to address with honesty due to the fact that they would be putting their careers on the line!

 

[Dennis Tate]

Why are you quoting a response that I made to Rainbow?

Because I assume that is part of the etiquette of discussion forums?

Am I incorrect?

 

[Seattle]

Because I assume that is part of the etiquette of discussion forums?

Am I incorrect?

There's no problem with you doing so, it just makes no sense (to me). Rainbow, for some reason, said that I BS and say that I'm an expert in international financial regulations. I've never said anything about financial regulations even though I do have some experience in that realm.

Your reply seems to have nothing to do with that.

 

[Dennis Tate]

There's no problem with you doing so, it just makes no sense (to me). Rainbow, for some reason, said that I BS and say that I'm an expert in international financial regulations. I've never said anything about financial regulations even though I do have some experience in that realm.

Your reply seems to have nothing to do with that.

I am a janitor at a school......
Mr. Paul Hellyer on the other hand is the former Canadian Minister of Defence......
I really assumed that you as well as anybody who reads through this discussion might be very interested in the way that Mr. Paul Hellyer
explains all of this.

I consider that this topic has life vs death implications for millions... if not for tens of millions of people......

I base that on a statement made the Canadian economist John Hotson......

http://www.mailstar.net/money.html

John Hotson:
(1) Financing Sustainable Development, by John H. Hotson

{p. 1} INTRODUCTION

As every environmentalist knows, over the last few centuries we humans have created an ecologically unsustainable industrial economy. Unless we radically reform our way of doing things and create a sustainable economic system we are doomed to suffer drastic changes. What most environmentalists--and indeed most economists--do not know is that over the last few centuries we humans have also created an economically unsustainable financial system. Unless we radically reform this financial system it will recurringly break down and thwart our efforts to heal the planet.

Our current financial system diverts us from our real problems to ask, "Where is the money going to come from?" This should be the least of our worries. As long as we have vast unmet human needs and idle human and nonhuman resources, and resources which can be diverted from wasteful activities such as the military, finance should never be allowed to stand in the way of doing what must be done. Could anything be more insane than for the human race to die out because we "couldn't afford" to save ourselves?

Agenda 21 {footnote 1}, prepared for last year's Earth Summit, or UNCED, by acknowledged U.N. experts on environment and development, concludes that the world community must spend about $625 billion a year over the next eight years if the Third World is to develop without destroying the environment. The Report states:

"A continution of present policies will lead to ... a worsening of poverty, hunger, ill health, illiteracy ... and growing threats to life on Earth."

The Report calls for increased aid flows of $125 billion a year from the developed countries, while the bulk of the effort, the remaining $500 billion a year, must come from the Third World's own resources. These numbers seem huge until we consider that $625 billion is only 4% of the Gross Planetary Product of some $16 trillion, and that it is less than 2/3 of the amount that the world still spends each year on armaments--even though the east block has collapsed and the "cold war" is over.

These numbers are also dwarfed by estimates that the United States alone is wasting $700 billion a year in unproduced output in the present depression--resources which could instead have been employed to clean up its own infrastructure, both public and private, both environmental and economic, while increasing its foreign aid toward the long agreed on goal of 0.7% of GNP. Finally, these numbers fade into insignificance when we consider what is at stake, which is

1. Agenda 21 & The UNCED Proceedings, N. A. Robinson, ed., Oceana, New York, 1992. The US $125 billion and S500 billion figures are given in Volume 2, p. 678.

{p. 2} nothing less than the long term survival of the human race.​

 

[Seattle]

I am a janitor at a school......
Mr. Paul Hellyer on the other hand is the former Canadian Minister of Defence......
I really assumed that you as well as anybody who reads through this discussion might be very interested in the way that Mr. Paul Hellyer
explains all of this.

I consider that this topic has life vs death implications for millions... if not for tens of millions of people......

I base that on a statement made the Canadian economist John Hotson......

http://www.mailstar.net/money.html

In other words, regardless of the subject matter of a post, you are going to have the same reply linking whatever you want to talk about.

 

[Dennis Tate]

In other words, regardless of the subject matter of a post, you are going to have the same reply linking whatever you want to talk about.

I am not really trying to get people to become clones to my way of thinking......
I am trying to get people to ask better and better and better questions due to their having
confronted not merely two sides to a topic.. but three or four or five or more valid ways to look at the subject........

The Paul Hellyer video can be linked to just about any topic that can be linked to MONEY!

 

[sculptor]

(BUT in order to get it to the poor I have to promote giving it to all citizens and legal residents as advocated by economist Milton Friedman..... that way NO BUREAUCRACY to watch over it is needed)!

You missed the point
giving the money to me, or someone like me would be a net loss to the giver.
No extra money will effect my buying habits---so I will not recirculate it into the broader economy.
Giving the money to people who do not need it would dilute the multiplier effect and lessen the value of the investment.
That being "said"

How would you define "the poor"
or just set an arbitrary number ---say 2000(working hrs. per year) x $15(proposed minimum wage in us) =$30,000
and everyone earning less gets the difference up to $30,000
(the danger lies in corporations underpaying their workers, knowing that the givemint will pick up the slack)

Something akin to that would be the best scenario for optimizing the investment
The more wisely a government invests, the less they have to suck the marrow out of the bones of the citizens,

 

[Dennis Tate]

You missed the point
giving the money to me, or someone like me would be a net loss to the giver.
No extra money will effect my buying habits---so I will not recirculate it into the broader economy.
Giving the money to people who do not need it would dilute the multiplier effect and lessen the value of the investment.
That being "said"

How would you define "the poor"
or just set an arbitrary number ---say 2000(working hrs. per year) x $15(proposed minimum wage in us) =$30,000
and everyone earning less gets the difference up to $30,000
(the danger lies in corporations underpaying their workers, knowing that the givemint will pick up the slack)

Something akin to that would be the best scenario for optimizing the investment
The more wisely a government invests, the less they have to suck the marrow out of the bones of the citizens,

No... you may be missing the larger point......
Economist Milton Friedman and I don't care about "net loss to the giver".... we care about AVOIDING bureaucracy!!!!!!!

If you end up saving the extra five hundred...... (actually five hundred minus the income tax that you would pay on an extra five hundred which might be less than three hundred net).... that is perfectly fine by me...... but your wife or your kids or your grandchildren might just view the extra five hundred per month very differently than you might?????

 

[sculptor]

No... you may be missing the larger point......
Economist Milton Friedman and I don't care about "net loss to the giver".... we care about AVOIDING bureaucracy!!!!!!!

If you end up saving the extra five hundred...... (actually five hundred minus the income tax that you would pay on an extra five hundred which might be less than three hundred net).... that is perfectly fine by me...... but your wife or your kids or your grandchildren might just view the extra five hundred per month very differently than you might?????

long ago
i took to replacing the c in bureaucracy with a z

(so, I get your ans Friedman's point)

 

[Dennis Tate]

long ago
i took to replacing the c in bureaucracy with a z

On that point....... I totally agree with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Quantum Quack]

Would it be fair to suggest that the issue of a UBI would not have come about as it has if it were not for various degrees of automation replacing employment opportunities for those who have no better qualification for more sophisticated work?
Ie. Road workers, railway workers, bank tellers, street cleaners, garbage collectors, Ice sellers, septic tank cleaners and other jobs with low qualifications needed.

Is it beholden on society to share the rewards of improved automation that has led to the annihilation of a class of employment?
Even Henry Ford's development of mass production techniques removed much of what was then the unskilled or semi skilled laborer class..
Would making use of a UBI aid in compensating the lower classes of potential employees for the advances they allowed, that lowered their chances of finding gainful employment?

 

[Dennis Tate]

Would it be fair to suggest that the issue of a UBI would not have come about as it has if it were not for various degrees of automation replacing employment opportunities for those who have no better qualification for more sophisticated work?
Ie. Road workers, railway workers, bank tellers, street cleaners, garbage collectors, Ice sellers, septic tank cleaners and other jobs with low qualifications needed.

Is it beholden on society to share the rewards of improved automation that has led to the annihilation of a class of employment?
Even Henry Ford's development of mass production techniques removed much of what was then the unskilled or semi skilled laborer class..

True...... the increasing degree of automation has forced many of the wealthiest of the wealthy........
to embrace this basic idea.

 

[Quantum Quack]

What say the UBI was treated like shares (dividends) in the nations economic prosperity?

 

[Dennis Tate]

What say the UBI was treated like shares (dividends) in the nations economic prosperity?

I do believe that this is a good way of explaining a major part of the logic behind Canada's Social Credit Political movement of the last century.