Would an intelligently financed UBI be dangerous for the environment?

[Seattle]

I'm guessing he is saying that an "extra" $500/month is 10 times what he has left over now for "fun" spending. Now he spends $50/month on hobbies and with an extra $500/month that's 10 times more for him.

I agree it's hard to follow anything he says since he goes from UBI to tide rates in the Bay of Fundy to desalination plants to making the planet green, etc.

 

[Dennis Tate]

YES
deliberately shut down to prevent the spread of SAR'S CoV-2
to prevent total global economic collapse resulting in global megga destruction of modern society & civilization as we know it.

what some people forgot is that the super rich(including middle[doctors & other skilled career professionals like engineers & carpenters & mechanics] class) like to travel the world and stay in fancy hotels and be served breakfast in bed etc...

it is hard to go on holiday with the zombie apocalypse beating down the front door of your home while your at home or away, and/or being overrun in your hotel room or while your sitting on the beach with your mai tai

https://www.delish.com/cooking/recipe-ideas/a30195779/mai-tai-recipe/



your comment "ten times more"

need to have some real world money #'s put to it so it makes logical financial & economical sense



conspiracy theory's
politics
economics(global financial equity values & valuation relationships including currency, pricing & inflation)
macro-economics
sociology
social economics

you are painting with a very broad brush using specific colours

i personally support a UBI(universal basic income) as a basic minimum income

it is a fairly complex discussion but it can be very simple
you appear to be mixing things together which detracts from being able to discuss anything accurately in specifics

additionally
your "10 times more income" comment
saying a UBI would give you 10 times your current income seems a little out of sync with basic UBI rates in any country.

a UBI takes in to consideration the cost of living & local economic price systems, taxation & retirement needs.

Russian UBI = ?$
...
New York UBI = ?$
...
Canadian UBI = ?$
...
Singapore UBI = ?$
...
China UBI = ?$
...
Australia UBI = ?$
(using Canadian dollars)
put a money value per week UBI before tax beside each one
then we can move forward with your discussion on UBI

Actually my income next year could go 10X what it was in 2020 if all of a sudden the idea of
a "Unified Field Theory of Modern World Problems" really took off in at least one nation
and I ended up crazy busy explaining my surprisingly simple version of how it could work.......

.. my guess is that the logical place to begin UFTofMWP would be in a combination of several nations cooperating together.....
I was thinking Canada, the USA , Israel, Australia and The Netherlands for starters.......

The Netherlands would tend to be interested in any plan that would be directed at a long term plan to keep ocean level stable.

Norway would be another logical nation to cooperate with because the Royal Family of Norway and Norwegian scientists and diplomats took Israeli solar desalination technology and
promoted it to several Islamic nations so in a way they have a head start on this basic idea.



https://www.saharaforestproject.com/

 

[Dennis Tate]

I'm guessing he is saying that an "extra" $500/month is 10 times what he has left over now for "fun" spending. Now he spends $50/month on hobbies and with an extra $500/month that's 10 times more for him.

I agree it's hard to follow anything he says since he goes from UBI to tide rates in the Bay of Fundy to desalination plants to making the planet green, etc.

I would love to be wrong about this but
I actually think that Dr. Bjorn Lomborg was correct in this statement:

"Bjorn Lomborg argues that many of the elaborate and expensive actions now being considered to stop global warming will cost hundreds of billions of dollars, are often based on emotional rather than strictly scientific assumptions, and may very well have little impact on the world's temperature for hundreds of years." (lomborg.com/coolit, 2008)....

I take this to mean that a Carbon Tax would not lead to stabilization of ocean levels for at least a century and one of those reasons is that
the largest companies would hire the best lawyers with a background in the environmental sciences and they would
simply get around any variation of a Carbon Tax or Cap and Trade system that is agreed on legally by several nations.

At least sincere attempts to desalinate ocean water on a large scale would produce more food, create jobs and truly....
every cubic meter of ocean water that is desalinated and added to the water table of a nation with lots of desert is
good new for all cities and communities vulnerable to the threat of rising ocean level.

Prime Minister Justin Trudeau has us Canadians somewhat ready for a BMI so now all that has to be done is to
educate Canadians to the fact that there are basically two ways to finance a Universal Basic Minimum Income or Income Supplement that
could set in motion a major shift in our economy........

in a sentence we must choose between the extremely wasteful method used from 1974 until now.......
or the relatively brilliant Bank of Canada policy that was used from 1938 to 1974 that I quoted in post number two.

This whole idea is actually relatively simple and does connect with the financing for much larger projects such as turning deserts green that I believe
could be done more effectively by the private sector than by government because governments tend to be amazingly inefficient at all that they
attempt to accomplish.

My vision for the future is government using intelligent central banking policy to finance a BMI or something similar that leads to nations
operating in the black and then the citizens who would have much higher levels of disposable income could invest in companies that would
get that job accomplished.

So I am advocating for wealthier citizens to finance the rapid expansion of projects such as:

https://www.hutchisonwater.com/projects/sorek/

Sorek Desalination Plant

 

[Dennis Tate]

A basic minimum income = freedom of choice
poor people ain't got that
they have to take the first job that comes along
which often means that they ain't doing what they love doing
which means that they ain't operating at peek performance
what a waste
meanwhile
Iran
In 2011, Iran rolled out a nationwide unconditional cash transfer program to compensate for the phase-out of subsidies on bread, water, electricity, heating, and fuel. The government gave out sizable monthly payments to each family: 29 percent of the median household income on average.

The program was later dialed back as some Iranians came to believe it was disincentivizing people to work. Yet economists found that “the program did not affect labor supply in any appreciable way.” The program is still running, and it’s the only such program in the world to run nationwide.

yet one more reason that the capitalist pigs that run this polity would want to attack Iran

Thank you immensely for this... Your comments that I bolded and turned RED are truly brilliant examples of what the result of a well financed BMI should produce.

Also.... I actually did not know that this was already being done in Iran!!!!! Very interesting indeed!

 

[Dennis Tate]

The effect would be to deflate the value of exiting money. If people are productive they don't need the UBI.

I see a well financed UBI as one promising way to pay off the national debts of all democratic nations and have them working instead in the black.... but there are a lot of people who do not want that to happen even though the benefits are so obvious.

 

[river]

People would be controlled by those who give the cheques .

Just raise the minimum wage . To $15.00 an hour .

 

[Dennis Tate]

People would be controlled by those who give the cheques .

Just raise the minimum wage . To $15.00 an hour .

A lot of people think this way but if all Canadian citizens are given an extra five hundred dollars per month.... 2000 for a family of four...... those of us who are good at basic services like carpentry renovations will see our yearly incomes surge because demand for our services would greatly increase.

My point is that thirty seven million Canadians OWN THE BANK OF CANADA but P. M. Pierre E. Trudeau was convinced to make what I consider to be one of the most colossal errors by a sitting P. M. in this last century.

P. M. Pierre E. Trudeau's error in 1974 caused the national debt of Canada to spiral out of control......
I suspect so that the same thing could be organized for the USA.....
because if the brilliant 1938 to 1974 Bank of Canada policy had not been abandoned.....
the flawed policies in the USA would have been too obvious!

The whole situation is of course more complicated than that....
but that is an important part of what happened and why.


https://www.michaeljournal.org/articles/social-credit/item/the-public-debt-problem?/plenty34.htm

ON THE PLUS SIDE.... P. M. PIERRE E. TRUDEAU'S ERROR IN 1974 DID TEND TO PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT FROM OVER CONSUMPTION..... so this is not as black and white... as simple as we have been told.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

I see a well financed UBI as one promising way to pay off the national debts of all democratic nations and have them working instead in the black.... but there are a lot of people who do not want that to happen even though the benefits are so obvious.

social culture is built around financial systems
this is what capitalism is

capitalism is the ideological belief that financial systems define morality & social culture.

a UBI upsets all those economic systems & cultures which are built around denying basic needs to people to force a profit margin.

both rich & poor share the same ideology so it is not just a simple class system problem of solving a class system

it is a human value system
the value they place on human life

you seem to choose to dance on the border of conspiracy theory's far to much for my liking.
i prefer to stay well clear of such ideologies unless there is clearly shown cause & effect defining the function

idle privilege conjecture changes nothing except providing an excuse for the idle rich privilege to claim the subject has already been discussed and dismissed.
so while you ponder supposed solutions
be mindful that you are not providing an excuse not to change in your own supposed process to seek change, you are simply creating an excuse & ideology to avoid change

Just raise the minimum wage . To $15.00 an hour .

and without price controls what would banks & shops do ?
raise their prices to exploit more profit margins
what would slum lords do to the rental market of workers whom are forced to rent ?
they would instantly with help and advice and recommendation from the real-estate people
raise rental prices to exploit as much as they could.

remember these are inherently greedy people who share no moral concepts

in the short term, where would the extra cash come from ?
Government lending to businesses ?(housing subsidy economics)
this is mathematics & economics

 

[Dennis Tate]

social culture is built around financial systems
this is what capitalism is

capitalism is the ideological belief that financial systems define morality & social culture.

a UBI upsets all those economic systems & cultures which are built around denying basic needs to people to force a profit margin.

both rich & poor share the same ideology so it is not just a simple class system problem of solving a class system

it is a human value system
the value they place on human life

you seem to choose to dance on the border of conspiracy theory's far to much for my liking.
i prefer to stay well clear of such ideologies unless there is clearly shown cause & effect defining the function

idle privilege conjecture changes nothing except providing an excuse for the idle rich privilege to claim the subject has already been discussed and dismissed.
so while you ponder supposed solutions
be mindful that you are not providing an excuse not to change in your own supposed process to seek change, you are simply creating an excuse & ideology to avoid change



and without price controls what would banks & shops do ?
raise their prices to exploit more profit margins

in the short term, where would the extra cash come from ?
Government lending to businesses ?
this is mathematics & economics

I have to admit that I thought that this documentary did a good job of filling us in on some of the reasons for
how things have worked out over this past century.


Why Big Oil Conquered the World

 

[RainbowSingularity]

I have to admit that I thought that this documentary did a good job of filling us in on some of the reasons for
how things have worked out over this past century.


Why Big Oil Conquered the World

i will watch it
please provide some context with your assertion as to how that changes the process to deliver the end result ?

out of curiosity
which big oil
which middle east culture(countrys, monarchy's) are you referring to ?
which American oil people are you referring to ?

jews are bad mmm kay
versus
oil money is bad mmm kay
as the new anti nazi concept is a poor sell

the money lenders(archain economic social engineering propaganda)
versus the oil owners ?

swapping out one miss aligned concept for another as an over arching principal of social economics simply creates a new arms race

you must watch this movie and the other ones on the same subject

 

[Dennis Tate]

i will watch it
please provide some context with your assertion as to how that changes the process to deliver the end result ?

out of curiosity
which big oil
which middle east culture(countrys, monarchy's) are you referring to ?
which American oil people are you referring to ?

jews are bad mmm kay
versus
oil money is bad mmm kay
as the new anti nazi concept is a poor sell

the money lenders(archain economic social engineering propaganda)
versus the oil owners ?

swapping out one miss aligned concept for another as an over arching principal of social economics simply creates a new arms race

you must watch this movie and the other ones on the same subject

I actually cannot give specific answers to your very good questions......
I don't have enough specifics yet but.......


The Big Short looks really interesting........
this movie fills in details on this whole thing as well.......

If I were to do a poll based on this based on history movie.....
it might look somewhat like:

?
Were the employees of J. Paul Getty assisting him... or themselves...with his income tax avoidance?

1. 
   They were just doing what he wanted done.
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
2. 
   They were probably making themselves invaluable to him.... and thus enriching themselves.
   0 vote(s)
   0.0%
3. *
   A combination of both doing what they were told but also making themselves more valuable.
   1 vote(s)
   100.0%

Change Your Vote

 

[Seattle]

A lot of people think this way but if all Canadian citizens are given an extra five hundred dollars per month.... 2000 for a family of four...... those of us who are good at basic services like carpentry renovations will see our yearly incomes surge because demand for our services would greatly increase.

My point is that thirty seven million Canadians OWN THE BANK OF CANADA but P. M. Pierre E. Trudeau was convinced to make what I consider to be one of the most colossal errors by a sitting P. M. in this last century.

P. M. Pierre E. Trudeau's error in 1974 caused the national debt of Canada to spiral out of control......
I suspect so that the same thing could be organized for the USA.....
because if the brilliant 1938 to 1974 Bank of Canada policy had not been abandoned.....
the flawed policies in the USA would have been too obvious!

The whole situation is of course more complicated than that....
but that is an important part of what happened and why.


https://www.michaeljournal.org/articles/social-credit/item/the-public-debt-problem?/plenty34.htm

ON THE PLUS SIDE.... P. M. PIERRE E. TRUDEAU'S ERROR IN 1974 DID TEND TO PROTECT THE ENVIRONMENT FROM OVER CONSUMPTION..... so this is not as black and white... as simple as we have been told.

The article linked to is ridiculous.

The debt problem is due to politicians spending more while cutting taxes. Some argue that is because they are no longer on the Gold Standard but that was never viable in the first place and is just a symptom of the same problem (irresponsible politicians spending more than is taken in).

The budget was in surplus for several years under the Clinton administration. Interest isn't the issue. Interest is paid and charged by the Central Bank. It pays interest but also returns all profits to the Government at the end of the year.

The specific problem you are referring to in Canada (I guess) is a political one. If you want the government to make interest free loans to people, that's up to the legislature.

It's not likely to fix any problem that you are looking to fix however.

 

[Quantum Quack]

Perhaps a UBI would mean that more children will grow up knowing how to spell "environment" and be able to make more informed decisions about the word if they miss-spell it!?!

 

[Dennis Tate]

The article linked to is ridiculous.

The debt problem is due to politicians spending more while cutting taxes. Some argue that is because they are no longer on the Gold Standard but that was never viable in the first place and is just a symptom of the same problem (irresponsible politicians spending more than is taken in).

The budget was in surplus for several years under the Clinton administration. Interest isn't the issue. Interest is paid and charged by the Central Bank. It pays interest but also returns all profits to the Government at the end of the year.

The specific problem you are referring to in Canada (I guess) is a political one. If you want the government to make interest free loans to people, that's up to the legislature.

It's not likely to fix any problem that you are looking to fix however.

Thank you for commenting on this.....
and I truly do wish that you were correct that the article was ridiculous..... but.......

what is happening up here in Canada actually goes back to important parts of the history of the USA.

"In 1972, the United States Treasury Department was asked to compute the amount of interest that would have been paid if that 400 million dollars would have been borrowed at interest instead of being issued by Abraham Lincoln. They did some computations, and a few weeks later, the United States Treasury Department said the United States Government saved 4 billion dollars in interest because Lincoln had created his own money. So you can about imagine how much the Government has paid and how much we owe solely on the basis of interest." (Melvin Sickler, Lincoln, Kennedy)

 

[Dennis Tate]

The article linked to is ridiculous.

The debt problem is due to politicians spending more while cutting taxes. Some argue that is because they are no longer on the Gold Standard but that was never viable in the first place and is just a symptom of the same problem (irresponsible politicians spending more than is taken in).

The budget was in surplus for several years under the Clinton administration. Interest isn't the issue. Interest is paid and charged by the Central Bank. It pays interest but also returns all profits to the Government at the end of the year.

The specific problem you are referring to in Canada (I guess) is a political one. If you want the government to make interest free loans to people, that's up to the legislature.

It's not likely to fix any problem that you are looking to fix however.

Compound interest over time is the number one cause of the national debts of the USA and Canada getting so high. Yes... there are other causes as well but that is the biggest one.....
both the USA as well as Canada have been set up in such a way that our central banks can serve the citizens...... rather than massive corporations.

Lincoln was re-elected President in 1864, and he made it quite clear that he would attack the power of the bankers, once the war was over. The war ended on April 9, 1865, but Lincoln was assassinated five days later, on April 14. A tremendous restriction of credit followed, organized by the banks: the currency in circulation in the country, which was, in 1866, $1,907 million, representing $50.46 for each American citizen, had been reduced to $605 million in 1876, representing $14.60 per capita. The result: in ten years, 56,446 business failures, representing a loss of $2 billion. And as if this was not enough, the bankers reduced the per capita currency in circulation to $6.67 in 1887!" (Alain Pilote,
The History of Banking Control in the United States)

For the record... there are similarities with what has been happening lately.

An important part of what we need to know is part of the history of Europe before the rise of Nazism.

The Weimar defense?

If I said that a person who was pushed from 6th-floor balcony died because they hit the ground. Would you blame the ground for their death or the person that pushed them?

Clearly, the person would not have fallen off the balcony if they hadn't been pushed. So the precipitating cause was the push, the resulting cause was hitting the ground.

No push, the person in question would not have died at that instant.

In the same way, money creation, wasn't the precipitating cause of hyperinflation, it was the resulting cause. The precipitating cause was the loss of productivity due to the destruction of factories during the war combined with reparations and the massive foreign debt payable only in gold.

Two important trends are needed to create a time of hyper inflation:
1. print a lot of extra money
2. DECREASE PRODUCTIVITY DRAMATICALLY.....
the type of response to the COVID 19 pandemic meets both of these criteria.

 

[Seattle]

Compound interest over time is the number one cause of the national debts of the USA and Canada getting so high. Yes... there are other causes as well but that is the biggest one.....
both the USA as well as Canada have been set up in such a way that our central banks can serve the citizens...... rather than massive corporations.





For the record... there are similarities with what has been happening lately.

An important part of what we need to know is part of the history of Europe before the rise of Nazism.



Two important trends are needed to create a time of hyper inflation:
1. print a lot of extra money
2. DECREASE PRODUCTIVITY DRAMATICALLY.....
the type of response to the COVID 19 pandemic meets both of these criteria.

There is no evidence that John Wilkes Booth assassinated Lincoln at the behest of the bankers and yet that is the claim in the book from which you have copied that argument about Lincoln paying for the Civil War by issuing Greenbacks and how much the interest would be if bonds were issued.

Before the Greenbacks were issued, money was issued by individual banks and therefore depended on the health of the individual banks. Lincoln issued Greenbacks with the full backing of the Federal Government.

The Federal Reserve came about later as a way to try to keep politics to a minimum by making it "private" and separate from the Treasure Department. It's not really private in the usual since of the word as all profits go back to the Treasury. Just printing money (your scenario) would deflate the value of all existing money and would be inflationary in the economy as a whole.

What the Fed is currently doing can be inflationary as well but though monetary policies they can put a damper on the economy and slow things down to try to keep that from happening. So far, so good.

Your argument about "compound interest" seems to go back to the Bible as it usually does by most who have an issue with charging interest.

Interest rates are historically low these days anyway. That's not the reason for our debt. If rates were higher we would be paying more and therefore politicians would have to spend less. They would still be irresponsible and we would still have debt but that's the effect interest rates have.

It's just like the housing market. Home prices can be higher now with low interest rates. If rates went up home prices (all else being equal) would go down but someone's mortgage would be about the same.

 

[Dennis Tate]

There is no evidence that John Wilkes Booth assassinated Lincoln at the behest of the bankers and yet that is the claim in the book from which you have copied that argument about Lincoln paying for the Civil War by issuing Greenbacks and how much the interest would be if bonds were issued.

Before the Greenbacks were issued, money was issued by individual banks and therefore depended on the health of the individual banks. Lincoln issued Greenbacks with the full backing of the Federal Government.

The Federal Reserve came about later as a way to try to keep politics to a minimum by making it "private" and separate from the Treasure Department. It's not really private in the usual since of the word as all profits go back to the Treasury. Just printing money (your scenario) would deflate the value of all existing money and would be inflationary in the economy as a whole.

What the Fed is currently doing can be inflationary as well but though monetary policies they can put a damper on the economy and slow things down to try to keep that from happening. So far, so good.

Your argument about "compound interest" seems to go back to the Bible as it usually does by most who have an issue with charging interest.

Interest rates are historically low these days anyway. That's not the reason for our debt. If rates were higher we would be paying more and therefore politicians would have to spend less. They would still be irresponsible and we would still have debt but that's the effect interest rates have.

It's just like the housing market. Home prices can be higher now with low interest rates. If rates went up home prices (all else being equal) would go down but someone's mortgage would be about the same.

Thank you for reading the article.

You are correct that the USA Federal Reserve was set up in such a way that the interest that it would earn from the loans it would make would be transferred back into the treasury......
(at least that is something that I read several years ago).

But if that was being done properly why did the USA national debt increase so much?????

Only the Bank of Canada and the USA Federal Reserve are set up in such a way that what I am proposing could be done at zero interest costs for Canadian and American citizens and legal residents. As you can see I wrote this up in such a way as to begin to gain support from both the political left as well as the right and centre.

"Five hundred dollars per Canadian per month, can this work?

I am advocating the usage of the Bank of Canada that is owned by all Canadians to finance giving five hundred dollars per month to all thirty seven million Canadians.

It will of course mean much more to poorer Canadians than to millionaires........
but it could be surprising how many stay at home wives with cheap and stingy millionaire husbands who control the purse strings of the home may find this extra five hundred very helpful indeed.

I suspect that well over eighty percent of of Canadians will spend this money reasonably well and:
1. enrol their kids in more after school programs.....
2. begin to purchase a higher percentage of organic produce vs the cheap GMO stuff
3. purchase a newer car, SUV or half ton truck
4. do renovations to their homes
5. hire landscapers to do certain projects on their properties
6. pay down their debt loads, especially the higher interest ones
7. buy a new home rather than renting
8. buy a cottage outside the city so that they can get away for weekends
9. many will choose to move to rural Canada in order to escape relatively hectic city life
10. eat at nice restaurants more often

11. I also believe that a significant percentage of Canadian women who would have chosen to have an abortion under the present economic situation will CHOOSE to keep their babies as opposed to having an abortion!

I suspect that less than ten percent of Canadians will attempt to live off this five hundred dollars / month and simply use it to drink or smoke more.
To whatever degree this happens the worst cases where these Canadians put themselves and others in danger this can be dealt with by issuing food stamps vs a monthly check."

 

[Seattle]

If you are concerned about debt, given everyone in Canada 500/month forever isn't the way to do reduce debt.

Debt is high because politicians spend more than they take in. Simple.

You can't continue to spend more and reduce taxes. The U.S. spends over 600 billion a year just on the military.

Interest rates aren't even high now. They are at historic lows.

 

[RainbowSingularity]

Would an intelligently financed UBI be dangerous for the environment?

intelligently financed
can you give a brief description of this in a basic process of where the money comes from & how it gets to people & in what form of currency ?
very simple
very brief

Were the employees of J. Paul Getty assisting him... or themselves...with his income tax avoidance?

that is a very tiny focus of something that detracts from the over all subject of market regulation
specifics in personal income tax evasion are mostly irrelevant to corporate tax regulation & legal regulations around financial entity's, financial scams, ponsy schemes & pyramid schemes.
consumer/business anti trust anti piracy copy-write laws
are all forms of regulation

have you had to be qualified in international financial compliance to deal with private financial documents & money ?
i have
so i am familiar with Australian, American and British financial compliance laws & regulations.

you need to be able to demonstrate you know what your talking about
unlike some like Seattle who bullshits constantly about supposedly knowing financial regulations but doesn't

I actually cannot give specific answers to your very good questions......

you need to learn the answers or you are just a PR propaganda puppet conspiracy theorist spouting endless fake news and fake media

if you cant provide an answer & discuss the subject your raising to talk about
then you need to stop changing the subject and learn the conversation that your attempting to have.

religious preachers spout off no end of half truths and fake news fake facts all jumbled together with no logic or science
you are getting very close to that.
im sure that is not your intention ?
to be just a loud shouting voice that never learns
(i realise there is a lot of things to learn)

Compound interest over time is the number one cause of the national debts of the USA and Canada getting so high.

if that is true
then interest rates control national economy
which is half correct
but removing the single idea and suggesting it is the root cause
is a false fact
who told you that ?

"anti money lending" agenda's
Muslims & communists & some other religious sects prohibit interest charges

interest is not the enemy
it is just a tool not a financial tool of "interest" because today it is interest !
tomorrow it is minimum wage
the day after it is income tax brackets
the goal posts are constantly shifted to service the cult/religion/preacher/ideology
those who demand society be slave to the tool are the problem !
those who oppose new regulations are the problem !
those who oppose evolution and social reforms are the problem !

 

[Seattle]

...
unlike some like Seattle who bullshits constantly about supposedly knowing financial regulations but doesn't

Do you have a link (any link) that shows that I "bullshit constantly" about knowing financial regulations? I worked in international finance so I do know something about that area but I'm not an expert on "regulations" and I don't think I've ever said anything about that.

Show where I've said anything like that. You can't, of course. I have dealt in letters of credit and other forms of trade financing including more esoteric forms such as foreign bills purchased.

I'm guessing your experience in "private" regulations is sending money to or from your relatives in other countries. Am I correct?