Would an intelligently financed UBI be dangerous for the environment?

[Dennis Tate]

I would like to think that a well financed Universal Basic Minimum Income would be a lot LESS dangerous for the world environment than the existing system...... but I have to admit that there is some logic in neo-Malthusian thought on this question.

I admit it.... my own tendency to consume would logically tend to an increase in environmental destruction if all of a sudden I could spent ten times as much as I did last year.

"Neo-Malthusianism" is a concern that overpopulation as well as overconsumption may increase resource depletion and/or environmental degradation will lead to ecological collapse or other hazards.

Three economists here in Canada have presented a powerful case that the Canadian and world economy is being deliberately dampened........... there is a real possibility that one of the reasons for this may be valid......to protect the environment.

 

[Dennis Tate]

Here in Canada we had a much better central banking policy that we used from 1938 to 1974 and I really like how Ms. Betty Krawczyk explained how it worked.

https://bettysearlyedition.blogspot.com/2015/07/how-pierre-trudeau-turned-us-into-debt.html

Betty Krawczyk:
But somehow this worked backward for Trudeau. Many Canadians still think highly of Pierre Trudeau, but in 1974 he did one terrible thing that changed the lives, for present and future, of all Canadians, for the worse. Trudeau gave the leading operations of the Bank of Canada over to the private banks operating in Canada.

The Bank of Canada was first established by Prime Minister Richard Bennet in 1935 as a private central bank, but was then nationalized by William Lyon Mackenzie King in 1938. By nationalizing the bank, Mackenzie King meant for it to belong to the people so the Canadian government could borrow funds with little or no interest for capital expenditures. The mandate of the newly nationalized Bank of Canada was to act as the banker to the government and to manage the public debt. As Mackenzie King famously said: “Once a nation parts with the control of their currency and credit, it matters not who makes that nation’s laws. Usury, once in control, will wreck any nation. Until the control of the issue of currency and credit is restored to government and recognized as its most sacred responsibility, all talk of sovereignty of parliament and of democracy is idle and futile.”

So the Bank of Canada was nationalized in 1938 and the government could now borrow money with little or no interest. And it worked. The Canadian government built freeways, public transportation systems, subway line, airports, the St. Lawrence Seaway and funded a national health care system and the Canada Pension Plan. But then Trudeau, under the influence of the international financial group called Basel’s
Committee’s Recommendations (The Basel Committee on Banking Supervision) made the decision to halt the borrowing of money from the Bank of Canada, and instead, chose to borrow from the private banks who instead of lending to the government at no interest, or low interest, introduced higher interest rates along with compound interest.

All banks know very well the magic of compound interest. And Pierre Trudeau must have known that the mounting compounded national debt would lead to Canadians eventually owing a dollar fifty for every dollar of their disposable incomes. After all, he studied economics at the London School of Economics. Surely the professors there knew about compound interest.

So Pierre Trudeau, instead of feeling blessed that Canada, unlike the US, had a nationalized central bank, signed our bank away to the private banks. Couldn’t Trudeau, such an educated man, surmise that citizens in a few years would be struggling to make car payments and meet rent and mortgages and student loans and to buy healthy food while last year’s profits for the big five (that’s Royal Bank, TD Bank, Scotiabank, Bank of Montreal and CIBC amounted to $31.7 billion?) If he did, he didn’t care. But it doesn’t have to be this way. It really doesn’t. Our Bank of
Canada is still there. Next time." (Betty Krawczyk)

 

[Dennis Tate]

For example..... here in Canada with a national debt approaching one trillion......
in theory we could create a Basic Minimum Income Supplement of five hundred dollars per Canadian per month for life ......
through a loan from the Bank of Canada......
and forgive that loan once it is actually paid out to Canadians.......

This would cost about eighteen billion Canadian dollars per month but.... as it is paid to Canadians that loan through the Bank of Canada could be forgiven....
which could theoretically result in eighteen billion dollars per month going first toward our deficit... and then soon toward our national debt.

Why don't we do this you may ask?????


By Harold Chorney, John Hotson and Mario Seccareccia made some rather powerful statements related to this topic:

“It is ludicrous for the government to put billions of dollars into circulation by borrowing from the private banks, when it can create the extra money it needs, virtually free.” (by Harold Chorney, John Hotson, and Mario Seccareccia,
The Bank of Canada Must Finance our Country, Debt-Free, 1996)

 

[Dennis Tate]

The logic for why that eighteen billion dollars soon going toward the deficit and then the national debt is that as it turned over roughly three times in the Canadian economy it would be taxed back into the treasury!

As the deficit would be dealt with and once Canada would begin to operate in the BLACK as opposed to operating in the RED as we do now........
it would be possible to greatly decrease the higher income tax levels giving Canadians more of an incentive to work and produce.

There is an aspect of Canada's geography that causes us to lean in the direction of several of the alternative theories on stabilization of the climate that Canadians might well be willing to invest heavily in for some obvious reasons if all of a sudden they had more disposable income to work with and invest for their retirement?


Anchorage Alaska has the second most extreme tides in the world after the Bay of Fundy. The funnelling effect that the land form of the Bay of Fundy and Anchorage Alaska has on tidal water should cause them to experience the effect of rising ocean levels first.


Residents of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick are facing a rather simple mathematical problem that forces us to take a rather dim view of a Carbon Tax.

.... "If average ocean levels rose by eight to ten cms (3 or 4 inches) could high tide...
... rise by one meter in the Isthmus of Chignecto in Nova Scotia, Canada?
This question is logical because the geography of Canada's Bay of Fundy produces the world's highest tides. In my part of Nova Scotia in Guysborough County there is very little funnelling of tidal waters......... so high tide is only about one to one point five meters above low tide.
In the eastern area of the Bay of Fundy high tide levels are up by ten to fifteen meters."


Every cubic meter of ocean water that is desalinated and added to the water table of Israel, California, Algeria, Qatar, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Australia, Nevada, South Africa, India or any other nation with lots of desert is really good news for the owners of the real estate along the Bay of Fundy and of Anchorage Alaska that have the second most extreme tides in the world for very similar reasons.

High tide waters are funnelled by the Bay of Fundy into a more and more narrow area and on top of that......... the Bay of Fundy is over one hundred and seventy miles long so high tide water cannot fully drain back into the ocean before the next high tide waters pile on top of them.

My point here is that there are ways that a UBI to all Canadians has the potential to be GOOD FOR THE ENVIRONMENT?

 

[Seattle]

You do like to roam all over the place in terms of subject matter don't you?
If the average height of the ocean raises by 3 to 4 inches then the high tides in the Bay of Fundy will be as they are now plus 3 to 4 inches.

Giving everyone in Canada another $500/month isn't going to do anything to or for ocean levels or desalinization plants (which aren't going to have any appreciable effects either).

Going into (more) debt to give people more money (UBI) isn't going to more than pay for itself due to the velocity of money moving though the economy.

 

[Dennis Tate]

You do like to roam all over the place in terms of subject matter don't you?
If the average height of the ocean raises by 3 to 4 inches then the high tides in the Bay of Fundy will be as they are now plus 3 to 4 inches.

Giving everyone in Canada another $500/month isn't going to do anything to or for ocean levels or desalinization plants (which aren't going to have any appreciable effects either).

Going into (more) debt to give people more money (UBI) isn't going to more than pay for itself due to the velocity of money moving though the economy.

If my proposal for an extra five hundred Canadian per month for all Canadians is accepted....
(and I am working on putting the idea out there for somebody to coopt and run with).....
one of the trends that I suspect will kick into motion will be a general movement away from
urban life...... toward rural Canada.

If a UBI were to be adopted in the USA that was financed by a policy similar to the quite brilliant Lincoln Greenback Monetary policy experiment......
this would likely result in.......

"There will be a sudden rush to buy farms, ranches, and homes in the country.
Thousands will attempt to flee from cities, hoping that a return to the land and
nature will provide security. There will be a growing urge to "get away from it
all"---and much money will be invested in land and acreage in rural areas by
people who have secret dreams of raising their own food and cattle and of
becoming self-supporting. The price of open rural land will continue to soar.
Acreage within 100 miles of most major cities will skyrocket out of reach to
all but syndicates." (David Wilkerson, The Vision, page 18,19).

.....

(Melvin Sickler, Lincoln, Kennedy) :
In 1972, the United States Treasury Department was asked to compute the amount of interest that would have been paid if that 400 million dollars would have been borrowed at interest instead of being issued by Abraham Lincoln. They did some computations, and a few weeks later, the United States Treasury Department said the United States Government saved 4 billion dollars in interest because Lincoln had created his own money. So you can about imagine how much the Government has paid and how much we owe solely on the basis of interest.

Canadians and Americans having more disposable income would lead to a change in investment patterns and retirement portfolios and ordinary people would tend to pick companies to invest in that would do better than what political leaders tend to promote.

 

[Seattle]

An extra $500/month isn't going to result in any large scale change in anyone's life.

If everyone moves to the country and lives an agrarian (subsistence) lifestyle there will be no one left working to pay for the UBI.

There is no free money machine.

 

[Dennis Tate]

An extra $500/month is going to result in any large scale change in anyone's life.

If everyone moves to the country and lives an agrarian (subsistence) lifestyle there will be no one left working to pay for the UBI.

There is no free money machine.

The degree to which work can now be done from home is altering the formula......
A family of four would receive an extra 2k per month... which would more than pay for the mortgage for a nice home in urban Canada or America.

 

[Seattle]

Do you think the Canadian economy can support UBI?

If most people can work from home why would the UBI even be needed? Everyone should be moving to the cheaper countryside already under your scenario.

 

[Dennis Tate]

Do you think the Canadian economy can support UBI?

If most people can work from home why would the UBI even be needed? Everyone should be moving to the cheaper countryside already under your scenario.

I would like to think that although my primary campaign writing from my 2006 campaign for M. L. A. as an independent was flawed.....
and I would write it up differently if I enter the next provincial election......
still..... some people found it rather encouraging and hoped that I would continue to be involved.

My name is Dennis Tate. I lived most of my forty seven years in West Lochiel Lake, Guysborough County. I am running for MLA as an independent in the area of Pictou Centre so that I can help as many people as possible become more aware of what I am sure is the real reason why our roads are in disrepair, why hospital beds are unused, why so many of the rural schools have been shut down, why our soldiers in Afghanistan are poorly equipped and why many if not most of our young people may have to leave Nova Scotia to find jobs.

When well trained workers have high quality technology to work with then the total of all wages and benefits paid out to employees is only a fraction of the retail value of the products they produce. As a result of this fact the only way to move products out of warehouses is to extend higher and higher levels of credit. One problem with an abundance of red ink is that compound interest on all this government, business and personal debt over a period of decades will grow to astronomical levels. At this time there is approximately TEN TIMES as much debt in Canada as there is money. A simple explanation for how this happened can be seen here:
The Public-Debt Problem

In my opinion this rather simple mathematical problem is perhaps the number one cause of inflation in the Canadian economy over the past three decades. This is also perhaps the number one reason why our costs of production are so high and Canadian products cannot compete on the world markets as well as they could under better conditions.


From 1940 to 1970 the Government of Canada put roughly half of the total money supply into the economy through loans issued through the federally owned Bank of Canada. Provincial and municipal governments could borrow the money to build roads, schools, hospitals and sewage treatment facilities at zero or one percent interest. In 1970 we changed our system and since that time a higher and higher percentage of all government debt is financed through loans issued through privately owned banks. At this time it is ninety eight percent. This policy may be great for our banking sector but it was estimated that in the one year of 1995 alone our federal government could have saved roughly SIXTY FIVE BILLION DOLLARS in interest payments if we had gone back to creating half the total money supply through these low interest rate loans issued through the bank that is OWNED BY ALL CANADIANS.

Considering that our deficit was approximately thirty billion dollars for that year, simply by changing back to an already proven monetary and banking system, we could theoretically have had a FEDERAL BUDGET SURPLUS OF THIRTY FIVE BILLION DOLLARS in 1995.


The massive cutbacks in the Canadian military, in health care, highway construction, social programs and education were profoundly affected by these accounting practices?
.....

Actually... it was in 1974 when we gave up on the rather brilliant central banking policies that were in effect from 1938 to 1974.

Some people on this forum think that I am some sort of made up identity but..... take a look at 2006 here.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictou_Centre

 

[Seattle]

I would like to think that although my primary campaign writing from my 2006 campaign for M. L. A. as an independent was flawed.....
and I would write it up differently if I enter the next provincial election......
still..... some people found it rather encouraging and hoped that I would continue to be involved.



Actually... it was in 1974 when we gave up on the rather brilliant central banking policies that were in effect from 1938 to 1974.

Some people on this forum think that I am some sort of made up identity but..... take a look at 2006 here.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictou_Centre

You only got 20 votes?

 

[Dennis Tate]

Do you think the Canadian economy can support UBI?

If most people can work from home why would the UBI even be needed? Everyone should be moving to the cheaper countryside already under your scenario.

You only got 20 votes?

Yes..... I ran as an Independent......
I was looking the various political parties over and attempting to figure out if I could fit in with one of them but when anybody runs as an Independent they know that they cannot win....... but my primary goal was to mentor Canadians on a topic that I had began to research back in 1994.

My day job is that of a janitor so I also don't have the kind of bucks available needed to actually win a campaign.

 

[Seattle]

Yes..... I ran as an Independent......
I was looking the various political parties over and attempting to figure out if I could fit in with one of them but when anybody runs as an Independent they know that they cannot win....... but my primary goal was to mentor Canadians on a topic that I had began to research back in 1994.

My day job is that of a janitor so I also don't have the kind of bucks available needed to actually win a campaign.

Why aren't you working in banking or finance or something that fits with your interests more closely?

 

[Dennis Tate]

Why aren't you working in banking or finance or something that fits with your interests more closely?

Back during the 1970's I began to attempt to take the Jewish Sabbath from Friday at sunset to Saturday at sunset rather seriously and I found that the easiest way for me to be free to observe the weekly Jewish Sabbath and the annual Holy Days of Judaism was to work at menial jobs like forestry or cleaning as I now do.

 

[Seattle]

Back during the 1970's I began to attempt to take the Jewish Sabbath from Friday at sunset to Saturday at sunset rather seriously and I found that the easiest way for me to be free to observe the weekly Jewish Sabbath and the annual Holy Days of Judaism was to work at menial jobs like forestry or cleaning as I now do.

Do you think the economy, overall, would be very productive if everyone did that (UBI concept)?

 

[Dennis Tate]

Do you think the economy, overall, would be very productive if everyone did that (UBI concept)?

I believe that an extra eighteen billion Canadian dollars into our economy in the form of an Unconditional Income Supplement to all Canadians would significantly shift our economy.

A huge percentage of us would tend to pay down our high interest debts which would save us a lot of money annually because we Canadians are mortgaged and maxed out on credit card debt.

A huge percentage of us would invest in a second home or cottage within fifty miles of our primary home.

A huge percentage of us Canadians would invest in better and better equipment for whatever our primary or secondary incomes were.

A huge percentage of us Canadians would renovate our primary homes and make necessary improvements and updates to our properties.

So many millions of us Canadians would end up working with updated and improved equipment that productivity would be significantly increased and...... the productivity of Canadians and Americans is what actually backs up our Canadian and USA national currency units.

 

[Seattle]

I believe that an extra eighteen billion Canadian dollars into our economy in the form of an Unconditional Income Supplement to all Canadians would significantly shift our economy.

A huge percentage of us would tend to pay down our high interest debts which would save us a lot of money annually because we Canadians are mortgaged and maxed out on credit card debt.

A huge percentage of us would invest in a second home or cottage within fifty miles of our primary home.

A huge percentage of us Canadians would invest in better and better equipment for whatever our primary or secondary incomes were.

A huge percentage of us Canadians would renovate our primary homes and make necessary improvements and updates to our properties.

So many millions of us Canadians would end up working with updated and improved equipment that productivity would be significantly increased and...... the productivity of Canadians and Americans is what actually backs up our Canadian and USA national currency units.

The effect would be to deflate the value of exiting money. If people are productive they don't need the UBI.

 

[sculptor]

A basic minimum income = freedom of choice
poor people ain't got that
they have to take the first job that comes along
which often means that they ain't doing what they love doing
which means that they ain't operating at peek performance
what a waste
meanwhile
Iran
In 2011, Iran rolled out a nationwide unconditional cash transfer program to compensate for the phase-out of subsidies on bread, water, electricity, heating, and fuel. The government gave out sizable monthly payments to each family: 29 percent of the median household income on average.

The program was later dialed back as some Iranians came to believe it was disincentivizing people to work. Yet economists found that “the program did not affect labor supply in any appreciable way.” The program is still running, and it’s the only such program in the world to run nationwide.

yet one more reason that the capitalist pigs that run this polity would want to attack Iran

 

[Seattle]

A basic minimum income = freedom of choice
poor people ain't got that
they have to take the first job that comes along
which often means that they ain't doing what they love doing
which means that they ain't operating at peek performance
what a waste
meanwhile
Iran
In 2011, Iran rolled out a nationwide unconditional cash transfer program to compensate for the phase-out of subsidies on bread, water, electricity, heating, and fuel. The government gave out sizable monthly payments to each family: 29 percent of the median household income on average.

The program was later dialed back as some Iranians came to believe it was disincentivizing people to work. Yet economists found that “the program did not affect labor supply in any appreciable way.” The program is still running, and it’s the only such program in the world to run nationwide.

yet one more reason that the capitalist pigs that run this polity would want to attack Iran

GDP (PPP) for the US vs Iran
$59k vs $20k

 

[RainbowSingularity]

I would like to think that a well financed Universal Basic Minimum Income would be a lot LESS dangerous for the world environment than the existing system......

...
Is the world economy being deliberately dampened
...

YES
deliberately shut down to prevent the spread of SAR'S CoV-2
to prevent total global economic collapse resulting in global megga destruction of modern society & civilization as we know it.

what some people forgot is that the super rich(including middle[doctors & other skilled career professionals like engineers & carpenters & mechanics] class) like to travel the world and stay in fancy hotels and be served breakfast in bed etc...

it is hard to go on holiday with the zombie apocalypse beating down the front door of your home while your at home or away, and/or being overrun in your hotel room or while your sitting on the beach with your mai tai

https://www.delish.com/cooking/recipe-ideas/a30195779/mai-tai-recipe/

I admit it.... my own tendency to consume would logically tend to an increase in environmental destruction if all of a sudden I could spent ten times as much as I did last year.

your comment "ten times more"

need to have some real world money #'s put to it so it makes logical financial & economical sense

I would like to think that a well financed Universal Basic Minimum Income would be a lot LESS dangerous for the world environment than the existing system...... but I have to admit that there is some logic in neo-Malthusian thought on this question.

I admit it.... my own tendency to consume would logically tend to an increase in environmental destruction if all of a sudden I could spent ten times as much as I did last year.



Three economists here in Canada have presented a powerful case that the Canadian and world economy is being deliberately dampened........... there is a real possibility that one of the reasons for this may be valid......to protect the environment.

conspiracy theory's
politics
economics(global financial equity values & valuation relationships including currency, pricing & inflation)
macro-economics
sociology
social economics

you are painting with a very broad brush using specific colours

i personally support a UBI(universal basic income) as a basic minimum income

it is a fairly complex discussion but it can be very simple
you appear to be mixing things together which detracts from being able to discuss anything accurately in specifics

additionally
your "10 times more income" comment
saying a UBI would give you 10 times your current income seems a little out of sync with basic UBI rates in any country.

a UBI takes in to consideration the cost of living & local economic price systems, taxation & retirement needs.

Russian UBI = ?$
...
New York UBI = ?$
...
Canadian UBI = ?$
...
Singapore UBI = ?$
...
China UBI = ?$
...
Australia UBI = ?$
(using Canadian dollars)
put a money value per week UBI before tax beside each one
then we can move forward with your discussion on UBI