World At War-Battlefront Levant

[ThazzarBaal]

The borders were never shut. The borders were never completely opened. Now, as then, there are a lot of laws covering who can enter and who can't. Right now, for example, any refugee can show up at the border and request asylum. (They have to be in the US to do this.) Once they request it, the court gives them a date, then they are released inside the US until that date. That is all legal, and represents most of the immigrants we are seeing now. If they work during that time, or if they don't show up for their court date - THEN they are breaking the law.

That's the way the law stands right now. Biden cannot turn away refugees or he would be breaking the law, and you can bet republicans would impeach him instantly.

We can, of course, alter the law, and the latest bill tried to do just that. Republicans rejected it.

Come Nov 6th, voters will remember which party was trying to fix the border - and which party refused for political reasons.

Oh, so that's what Biden accomplished as a counter measure to Trumps harder stance on immigration and the wall efforts. Would a wall help force immigrants to legal points of entry?

Honestly, Biden loosened the grip on border control measures after Trump tightened them.

If asylum and citizenship was so easy, why the issue with the border and the wall and immigration? Drugs, human trafficking, and potential national security threats and foreign efforts to topple our government. What else?

 

[billvon]

Legal entry points/illegal immigration, and most illegal immigrants passing through legal entry points seems a stretch.

Why? Refugees come in legally by saying they are requesting asylum. Then if they work, or they don't show up for court, they become illegal. That's how most of the illegal aliens in the US end up as illegal aliens.

There's a whole world of human trafficking, tied to immigration and non legal entry.

EXACTLY! The recent bipartisan compromise bill contained billions to fight human trafficking - more investigators, more X-ray equipment, more judges, more border patrol.

Republicans voted against it.

. Would a wall help force immigrants to legal points of entry?

Nope. It takes a few minutes to cut through even the new wall with a Sawzall, and like you said above, human traffickers have access to them. They are $100 at Home Depot. And the human traffickers have zero desire to go to legal border crossings; why would anyone pay a coyote if they knew they could enter legally as a refugee?

I once landed in Tijuana (accidentally.) To get back across the border, I asked some local kids. They took me to the fence and showed me the foot and handholds they used to get over. I was over in a few minutes.

So no, fences don't do much. The money for them would be better spent on more border patrol, more drones, more courts (to process refugees) and more prisons (to house criminals caught at the border.)

If asylum and citizenship was so easy, why the issue with the border and the wall and immigration?

Because people ask for asylum and they get a court date five years in the future. What do they do until then? They can starve I guess. They can find someone to take them in. Or they can work - at which point they become illegal.

But to your larger point - there is no problem with immigration. Our country has almost stopped growing in population, which will cause the collapse of our debt-based economy. We NEED millions of immigrants to grow the US and stave off financial collapse. Right now the border is a shambles and even refugees who absolutely deserve to get in are forced to wait years - and they often turn to productive work in the meantime, making them illegal. We should be encouraging people who want to come here to work to enter, not styming and criminalizing them with an underfunded, understaffed INS.

Drugs, human trafficking, and potential national security threats and foreign efforts to topple our government. What else?

Poverty, sickness, death. Loss of tax revenue, loss of productive work, a strain on local police forces. All of which could be mitigated by taking action at the border. Too bad republicans refuse.

(I would point out that the only serious effort to topple our government recently came from Trump supporters, not immigrants.)

 

[exchemist]

Time frames associated? How do you spin the counter measures after the fact? On border control, I mean.

I'm not spinning anything. I just read the papers. Perhaps you might try that.

 

[ThazzarBaal]

Why? Refugees come in legally by saying they are requesting asylum. Then if they work, or they don't show up for court, they become illegal. That's how most of the illegal aliens in the US end up as illegal aliens.

EXACTLY! The recent bipartisan compromise bill contained billions to fight human trafficking - more investigators, more X-ray equipment, more judges, more border patrol.

Republicans voted against it.

Nope. It takes a few minutes to cut through even the new wall with a Sawzall, and like you said above, human traffickers have access to them. They are $100 at Home Depot. And the human traffickers have zero desire to go to legal border crossings; why would anyone pay a coyote if they knew they could enter legally as a refugee?

I once landed in Tijuana (accidentally.) To get back across the border, I asked some local kids. They took me to the fence and showed me the foot and handholds they used to get over. I was over in a few minutes.

So no, fences don't do much. The money for them would be better spent on more border patrol, more drones, more courts (to process refugees) and more prisons (to house criminals caught at the border.)

Because people ask for asylum and they get a court date five years in the future. What do they do until then? They can starve I guess. They can find someone to take them in. Or they can work - at which point they become illegal.

But to your larger point - there is no problem with immigration. Our country has almost stopped growing in population, which will cause the collapse of our debt-based economy. We NEED millions of immigrants to grow the US and stave off financial collapse. Right now the border is a shambles and even refugees who absolutely deserve to get in are forced to wait years - and they often turn to productive work in the meantime, making them illegal. We should be encouraging people who want to come here to work to enter, not styming and criminalizing them with an underfunded, understaffed INS.

Poverty, sickness, death. Loss of tax revenue, loss of productive work, a strain on local police forces. All of which could be mitigated by taking action at the border. Too bad republicans refuse.

(I would point out that the only serious effort to topple our government recently came from Trump supporters, not immigrants.)

Ok, so they come through, ask for asylum, are given court dates, then required to wait upwards of 5 years. In the meantime, they either work and become illegal OR we foot the bill at our resource centers.

Beyond this, you suggest more money for prisons, more money for courts, more money for border control, more money for drones, etc. all while our deficit continues to increase and already up to over 34 trillion dollars. In the meantime, uncle Joe and aunt Rita can't find suitable work and cuz is living homeless in LA, where you guessed it, united states citizens and other financial donors, including government sources foot the bill.

Immigration: I like the thought of a thriving economy and strong workforce that includes legal immigrants, but we're not there yet.

Not to mention the ongoing high alert type status we've been under and for some time now, coupled with an increase of illegal immigrants entering our borders, and heightened threats across the globe and everything else associated with what we call the terrorist movement, we have our fair share of concerns associated with the incoming traffic, some of which involves cartels, drugs, and human trafficking that, ahem ... Our lawmen and woman are required to deal with.

Being an American citizen isn't as easy as it once was. It's a turbulent situation in turbulent times and the difficulties evident enough to understand it's a problem.

Border control is important enough to tackle. The question is in the how to's not so much the who's in office when we come to an agreement.

 

[ThazzarBaal]

I'm not spinning anything. I just read the papers. Perhaps you might try that.

Well, Trump and the right is being blamed for the loosened stance that came with Biden. Now Biden's admin has a few initiatives that (see above) they want passed and the left is getting pissy about the disagreement of terms.

 

[origin]

Being an American citizen isn't as easy as it once was.

I think Americans have an extremely easy life. It is so easy we have to make up stuff to be upset about.

 

[billvon]

Beyond this, you suggest more money for prisons, more money for courts, more money for border control, more money for drones, etc. all while our deficit continues to increase and already up to over 34 trillion dollars.

That's a tradeoff you can certainly make. Just be clear that you are giving up due to the cost.

In the meantime, uncle Joe and aunt Rita can't find suitable work . . . .

Unemployment is at record lows. Uncle Joe and Aunt Rita can find work. Big caveat though - if they want it.

But there's lots of work they don't want. They want cheap veggies but don't want to pick them. Not willing to do the work. It's too HARD! So they rely on illegal immigrants to pick them for them. Farmers would much rather use legal pickers - but Americans won't do that work. So we use illegals to get Joe and Rita their cheap veggies.

So I don't have much sympathy for Joe and Rita, who aren't willing to work, but still want stuff cheap.

and cuz is living homeless in LA, where you guessed it, united states citizens and other financial donors, including government sources foot the bill.

But you're saving money by not paying the border patrol more, so you have money for that - right?

Not to mention the ongoing high alert type status we've been under and for some time now, coupled with an increase of illegal immigrants entering our borders, and heightened threats across the globe and everything else associated with what we call the terrorist movement

Again, the #1 threat of terrorism comes from right wing extremism in the US.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jihadist-plots-used-be-u-s-europe-s-biggest-terrorist-n1234840

we have our fair share of concerns associated with the incoming traffic, some of which involves cartels, drugs, and human trafficking that, ahem ... Our lawmen and woman are required to deal with.

Yep. Trade that off against the potential good of saving some money.

Being an American citizen isn't as easy as it once was.

My parents grew up in the 1950's and 1960's. They recall times when they weren't sure the US would survive, with all the problems with civil rights protests, immigration, pollution, Watergate, war in Korea and Vietnam, the imminent threat of nuclear war . . . they were glad they survived those times and made it to this modern, easier era.

You will tell your kids the same thing. Nothing really changes. Life is as easy as it's ever been here, no matter what your news bubble tells you.

Border control is important enough to tackle.

Even if it costs money for border patrol, courts and prisons?

 

[billvon]

Well, Trump and the right is being blamed for the loosened stance that came with Biden.

No. Biden was (rightly) being blamed for not doing much about the border until it became such a big problem.

Now Biden's admin has a few initiatives that (see above) they want passed and the left is getting pissy about the disagreement of terms.

?? The left wants it passed. The right is being pissy and not passing it for political reasons. Specifically they want to keep the border a disaster so they can win elections.

 

[Killjoy]

See my questions to Thazzarbaal, above. What do you think? Is there a problem that needs a solution, or not? If there is, what solution would you like to see?

I'd say it's indeed a problem that international commerce cannot continue unimpeded. The solution I'd like to see ? To paraphrase a line from an old movie - Blow the piss out of them. All of them.
I know it's a senseless sentiment, but a man can dream...

More realistically - though I suspect it's not that much more so - pretty much what's actually being done. Assemble a "Coalition of the Killing" ** and get down to business. It took a while to work against the Somali pirates a while back, and the Houthis seem more resilient - or resistant, perhaps - but they were asked to cease and desist, then they were warned the world wouldn't put up with their actions. Now it's hammer time, and here we go.

Alternate mad plan...
Do you suppose we could convince the entire population of Israel to emigrate to the USA ? The IDF could be our new Southern border patrol.



**Read this phrase recently here, and God help me, I do love it so.
https://theintercept.com/2024/02/07/intercepted-podcast-unrwa-israel-gaza-colonialism/#:~:text=Photos%3A%20Getty%20Images-,Joe%20Biden%20Leads%20a%20Western%20%E2%80%9CCoalition%20of%20the%20Killing%E2%80%9D%20in,for%20Israel's%20scorched%2Dearth%20siege.

 

[ThazzarBaal]

I think Americans have an extremely easy life. It is so easy we have to make up stuff to be upset about.

Naturally, in contrast to some other territories, I'll agree. This doesn't apply to all other or even the majority of other territories, but in contrast to some, we have it easy.

 

[ThazzarBaal]

That's a tradeoff you can certainly make. Just be clear that you are giving up due to the cost.

Unemployment is at record lows. Uncle Joe and Aunt Rita can find work. Big caveat though - if they want it.

But there's lots of work they don't want. They want cheap veggies but don't want to pick them. Not willing to do the work. It's too HARD! So they rely on illegal immigrants to pick them for them. Farmers would much rather use legal pickers - but Americans won't do that work. So we use illegals to get Joe and Rita their cheap veggies.

So I don't have much sympathy for Joe and Rita, who aren't willing to work, but still want stuff cheap.

But you're saving money by not paying the border patrol more, so you have money for that - right?

Again, the #1 threat of terrorism comes from right wing extremism in the US.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/jihadist-plots-used-be-u-s-europe-s-biggest-terrorist-n1234840

Yep. Trade that off against the potential good of saving some money.

My parents grew up in the 1950's and 1960's. They recall times when they weren't sure the US would survive, with all the problems with civil rights protests, immigration, pollution, Watergate, war in Korea and Vietnam, the imminent threat of nuclear war . . . they were glad they survived those times and made it to this modern, easier era.

You will tell your kids the same thing. Nothing really changes. Life is as easy as it's ever been here, no matter what your news bubble tells you.

Even if it costs money for border patrol, courts and prisons?

Let's say Joe and Rita owned a farm, but after losing their jobs to younger employees on a lower pay rate, they could no longer afford to pay property taxes due to the increased value of real estate. Hell, they weren't even paying on the farm loan anymore.... No debts to loan officers, just due taxes. No job, no money, no work adequate enough to support the lifestyle lived for over 20 years, so they lost the farm.

Anyway, the work they did find, if you can call it work, pays $20,000 less a year per person, than the jobs they held for 20 plus years elsewhere. That's a $40,000 a year decrease of income. They're now bringing in poverty level wages at the local Walmart, part time. Door greeters ... Imagine that.

34 trillion dollar deficit and nearly everyone with their hands out in someway, all while the border crossings continue. You want, more drones, more courts, more prisons to answer to the call of illegal immigration, and most of us just want a fair opportunity to succeed as American citizens.

You spin it to the tune of "You want to save the money" but the reality is it's a far bigger problem than simply agreeing to the Biden's admin proposition and terms to secure the border, coming in after his first 3 years in office and counter measures taken to undermine Trumps work as president.

It wouldn't be nearly as difficult to address the issue if the Dems hadn't, more or less, opened them up for the passing - to counter Trumps former efforts to secure them.

 

[ThazzarBaal]

No. Biden was (rightly) being blamed for not doing much about the border until it became such a big problem.

?? The left wants it passed. The right is being pissy and not passing it for political reasons. Specifically they want to keep the border a disaster so they can win elections.

You're seriously suggesting that Trump did too little to secure the border during his presidency? I'm sure it's political. You got that much right. It's odd you bring up election year efforts on border control, given the last three were spent on easier access at the borders.

 

[ThazzarBaal]

Btw, Joe and Rita made a substantial profit on the farm, but with real estate prices skyrocketing across the nation, they were unable to find anything even remotely similar at a price point they could afford, so they now live in government housing due to the poverty level income they bring in.

I forgot to mention cuz. He's still homeless in LA. Last I heard, he was sleeping on a bench under the overpass on 3rd.

 

[scorpius]

it's 2004. i'm reading about the war in the middle east on sciforums
it's 2014. i'm reading about the war in the middle east on sciforums
it's 2024. i'm reading about the war in the middle east on sciforums

Dont ya know war is good for busines,seling weapons makes Military Industry very rich.
Do you know who started all Wars in past 60 years?
Remember Afganistan,Lybia,Syria ,Iraq, Serbia, Vietnam,
However
Theres a saying,,,What goes around ...

Rusia China India and 100 of their friendly countries will dump US$ and start trading using Yuan or Ruble or gold and our greenbuck value will drop,making everything here more expensive,,
And our country 33 TRILION $ DEBT dont help nothin
Read Scott Riter extra

 

[billvon]

You're seriously suggesting that Trump did too little to secure the border during his presidency?

?? No, I didn't say that. I said that NOW, the republicans are the group blocking border fixes.

 

[James R]

Do you know who started all Wars in past 60 years?
Remember Afganistan,Lybia,Syria ,Iraq, Serbia, Vietnam,

Who do you think started the wars in the countries you mentioned? I'm interested to find out who you believe it was, in each case.

Rusia China India and 100 of their friendly countries will dump US$ and start trading using Yuan or Ruble or gold and our greenbuck value will drop,

How many countries would you say are currently looking at the Russian ruble as a good investment?

Are you aware of the current exchange rate? US$1 can currently be traded for no less than 91 Russian rubles.

The ruble is near a 10-year low against the dollar.

making everything here more expensive,

It's a bugger when you have to pay a fair wage for a day's work, isn't it?

And our country 33 TRILION $ DEBT dont help nothin

Most countries are in debt.

On a per capita basis, the United State's foreign debt comes in at place #102 out of 210 nations. Russia's debt is at #36. China has a debt of $2.45 trillion, but on a per capita basis, it comes in at #178; China has a very large population.

Source: List of countries by external debt - Wikipedia

 

[exchemist]

Dont ya know war is good for busines,seling weapons makes Military Industry very rich.
Do you know who started all Wars in past 60 years?
Remember Afganistan,Lybia,Syria ,Iraq, Serbia, Vietnam,
However
Theres a saying,,,What goes around ...

Rusia China India and 100 of their friendly countries will dump US$ and start trading using Yuan or Ruble or gold and our greenbuck value will drop,making everything here more expensive,,
And our country 33 TRILION $ DEBT dont help nothin
Read Scott Riter extra

Don't "ya" know it is a myth that war is good for business? The cost to the country, the loss of population, the damage to infrastructure and the stalling of progress on domestic improvements typically vastly outweigh the profits of those industries connected with the war effort. More here: https://www.economicshelp.org/blog/2180/economics/economic-impact-of-war/

 

[ThazzarBaal]

?? No, I didn't say that. I said that NOW, the republicans are the group blocking border fixes.

?? No, I didn't say that. I said that NOW, the republicans are the group blocking border fixes.

Ok

 

[ThazzarBaal]

Who do you think started the wars in the countries you mentioned? I'm interested to find out who you believe it was, in each case.

How many countries would you say are currently looking at the Russian ruble as a good investment?

Are you aware of the current exchange rate? US$1 can currently be traded for no less than 91 Russian rubles.

The ruble is near a 10-year low against the dollar.

It's a bugger when you have to pay a fair wage for a day's work, isn't it?

Most countries are in debt.

On a per capita basis, the United State's foreign debt comes in at place #102 out of 210 nations. Russia's debt is at #36. China has a debt of $2.45 trillion, but on a per capita basis, it comes in at #178; China has a very large population.

Source: List of countries by external debt - Wikipedia

Apples to oranges. I remember being 5 years old and staying up late. I was only allowed to stay up if I sat my butt down and watched the 11 o clock news on TV. So, that's what I did. American flag burning, death to America being chanted as they stomped on the burning American flag.

Iran, at age 5 and some of my first memories of international affairs as an American youth. Who started the wars? I don't know. Insurgents, religious disputes between regions, land pursuits and I would think power plays had a thing to do with them. Truth be told, various people and for those reasons.

The 34 trillion dollar deficit this nation is under is the same debt our great - great grandchildren will be paying on long after we're gone. The Per Capita bullshit is moot, particularly compared to the tater salad type nations you've chosen to compare us too.

Don't ask what I mean by tater salad nations. It's moot too.

 

[Killjoy]

The matchup the world has long awaited has finally flamed into open conflict, sports fans!
The launch of some 300 drones, cruise missiles and ballistic missiles by Iran against Israel made the proverbial "shot heard round the world" seem little more than a feeble firecracker.
This Big League blast by Team Persia was all but blunted by defensive measures deployed by Israel & it's allies, however, with 99% of enemy ordnance reportedly intercepted prior to reaching their targets. Some Israeli officials have already described prevailing circumstances as a "state of war" between the belligerents...
How will the Sons of David respond ?
The world wonders !

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2024/apr/14/middle-east-crisis-visual-guide-to-irans-attack-on-israel

Iran launched more than 300 drones and missiles towards Israel on Saturday night in its first ever direct attack on the Israeli state. Tehran said it was responding to a strike on an Iranian diplomatic building in the Syrian capital, Damascus, on 1 April that killed a senior figure in Iran’s Islamic Revolutionary Guards and eight other officers...

...The Israeli military spokesperson R Adm Daniel Hagari said 99% of the incoming barrage was intercepted by Israel and its allies. He said all drones and cruise missiles were shot down before they reached Israel, but a few of the ballistic missiles did get through, causing minor damage to the Nevatim airbase in the southern Negev desert...

...The Israeli cabinet minister Benny Gantz said Israel would “exact a price” from Iran in response to its attack, while the defence minister, Yoav Gallant, said Israel had an opportunity to form a strategic alliance against “this grave threat by Iran”.