What's 'nothing' ???

Discussion in 'Physics & Math' started by KneD, Jun 17, 2001.

  1. Alpha,

    If space is made of the smallest quants of energy, and space is infinite, than the total energy in the universe is infinite. This is very unlikely.

    But if there is a finite amount of energy/matter in the universe and space is composed of this, then the universe is finite in size and it does have an edge.

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  3. Ankit The Angel Registered Senior Member

    Ah, but...

    Your reasoning is not incorrect, but the case you state is not so... You see, particles have a property called "spin"...which means that they are different depending on which angle from which you look at them. This, combined with the uncertainty principle, means that there is no definite, set level of energy in particles, so ambiguousity clouds the issue...and we still don't know what space is made of, remember!

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    The "thing" that makes up space may well limit the amount of energy that the universe "holds". But, first of all, why should the universe be infinite? Is ANYTHING in the universe infinite? Even the sun's life ends eventually...
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  5. Ankit,

    Regardless of spin, uncertainty principle, etc., particles exist and therefore must at all times contain at least a small amount of energy. And since space exists, it also must contain a small amount of energy. Therefore, if there is limited energy in the universe, the universe has to be limited in size.

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  7. Ankit The Angel Registered Senior Member

    Which is partly what I said, no?
  8. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    I've just read from where I last posted to see how this discussion has progressed, After reading all your inputs I've deduced my own reasoning on this subject.

    Firstly, I found a mentioning of "An Edge of the Universe", admittedly my perception of the universe is the universe itself exists like a solar system within a galaxy. Our universe is just like a Housing estate or Block in a city.

    What our universe exists in is space, It's percievable that there are no limits to the extent of space, just limits on the amount of energy that exists through "Doppler shifts that can use Quantum Entanglement and Doppler Congestion to span the Universe" (congestion meaning that Dopplers are forced to span out after clashing together like the crest of a wave)

    The space beyond a percievable edge might actually get to the point of nothingness with no or limited amounts of energy or quanta.

    As for the Energy within space and it's definition of it being finite or Infinite, I would suggest the latter. My understanding of how a universe was born, is the idea that at one point there was nothing but space (with a limited energy deduced by relativity).
    The understanding of light congregating in a future blackhole to amount the energy necessary to navigate a temporal wormhole back to the beginning of the universe. creating a spout of the first atoms into a relative space, where space now increased with it's waves of dopplers eminating from the newly defined atoms.

    The creation of a Star at this point is inevitable from the collection of gases forming, and the gravity they all collect. The continued steam of atoms causes fission enough to burn brightly, and over time it eventually cancels out the blackholes creation.

    This would explain how an individual one occurs, since the first dopplers are moving across space they slow and are overtaken by an explosion of quanta from the reaction of the Blackhole to Star invertion. This causes "Clone" versions of that event occuring, with each one occuring the original ones cause small distortions that make each uniquely different.

    This of course means that SPACE is MULTIDIMENSIONAL, it holds no bounds to it's dimensional capability. Due to the process I've written above, the amount of matter that can exist within it is INFINITE. The universe continues to expand like a chain reaction.
  9. earthen Registered Member

    nothing is everything.
    when 1 meets -1,it's nothing, retro is also truth.
    retro is very important, it co-exist with the big bang.
    when time travel is available, we might get the answer.
  10. Jagwired Registered Member

    Nothing is impossible...

    Is a nice double-entendre, and will be a good name for my book.

    You guys/gals are awesome, and I thoroughly enjoy all of your posts.
  11. Stryder Keeper of "good" ideas. Valued Senior Member

    Why I and I'm sure the others thankyou for that comment Jagwired I hope throughout the many relevant discussions that everyone has upon this forum, new theories and understandings can be born.

    I welcome you to the Forum seeing it's your first post and hope that you join the conversation (or any other at this forum) when you feel comfortable and have the time

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  12. Ankit The Angel Registered Senior Member

    Greetings, Humans.

    Well, thank you for that all-encompassing and obviously well-ruminated-over compliment, Jagwired. From all the scientists/artists in this forum, I thank you. Now, where were we?

    Ah, yes. "What is nothing?" Well, that is a mathematical identity. "What is it?", you ask. I don't know. The answer is probably contained in 21st century Maths, which hasn't been formulated yet.

  13. c'est moi all is energy and entropy Registered Senior Member

    humble me thinks that NOTHING does simply NOT EXIST !

    everything is something

    rather phylosophical and not really within the direct domain of the positive sciences I think also

    it's a point of view you have to take here

    and i take this one

    it may very well be a wrong question
    wrong questions lead to unsolved problems ... simply cause the question is wrong........
  14. Jagwired Registered Member

    All right folks, take a deep breath for this one:

    Settled vision on an unused landscape Normandy reckoning never to come over a 120 mph headlong thrust a steering wheel circumference never quite described pi of un-halting innumerable digits stretching into the vastness of a predictable deterministic firing of the God knows how many cylinders visiting the long lost never accepted lust filled fire burns from the top of her head into the soul unquenchable desire taking the days as they come two steps backward off the fence by brute force of ballistic bibles filled with the names of the begotten now forgotten likeliest of approaching chosen impending judgment square in the face of the fact catching slightly more enchanted lepton through the slit of its own accord while you're not watching out of the corner the coroners eye glazed over staring ceiling of an abandoned missing tile wires and pipes exposed transporting a substance destination most suited far too near a long time friend but more recent enemy after hour emergency shoulder tears held in despite the apparent need for release sputtering nonsense babbled to the deaf ear nothingness which is quite impossible their own volition caught in the game played by the rules of a world placed in the furthest spiral some whimsical thought alone in the cycle becoming a timeless one with itself maddening enough to make you create despite apathy bearing a laughter out of necessity a great time had by a return to the soiled womb an indifferent fetching image caught in the review mirror brought up to the front seat caught by the hard right hand turn spinning particle out of the lung into yours closest you'll get fighting all the way back to a simpler beginning with all the knowledge this time groundhog while chance devours the chips placed on the table with hope far overdue

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  15. Fukushi -meta consciousness- Registered Senior Member

    how do you know,....for shure

    Maby if you go far enough you fall of the "edge" of the universe!!

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    Maby we need another Columbus or a Leif Ericson.
    But let's start with Mars,...
  16. Mr. G reality.sys Valued Senior Member


    Are we to believe that the ultimate secrets of the Universe can be revealed to us by someone for whom the far easier secrets of both syntax and punctuation remain excruciatingly unknown?

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  17. Chagur .Seeker. Registered Senior Member

    Mr. G ...

    You sure do seem determined to be anointed
    'The Curmudgeon of Sciforums.com'.

    Rant on, oh wise one!

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    And ... Take care

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  18. Fukushi -meta consciousness- Registered Senior Member

    nothing is,...

    just as it says,...it's al the things that are not,....even if that place or thing or nothing exists only in theory or in tought,...
    people can deduct the nothingness as an X-factor,...it's supposed to be created as the opposite of the materialistic world. But to make things easy to understand: you can look between molecules , you can search the sky and the universe for the end,...but true end is not reached nor breached by breaking or taking the limit,.....
    -fractal (looking into matter --> just variations)
    -no end nor beginning of universe-

    true end is thus reached by a completion wich is limitless,...
    so everything equals nothing in this way,
    you can not look at one without leaving the other out of sight or count,......
    the end is the beginning and vice versa,...
    this is also confirmed by cern,....they created anti-matter out of matter,....
    It's literally the opposite.
    the circle is complete

  19. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Just a beginner here, but let me ask something.
    Nothingness does not exist, we have concluded that, correct? Nothingness is an abstract thought that man invented to describe an amount (equal to none) of something, like 'I have no apples'. Is not this the only applicable situation for the word nothing? Nothing is a state of having none. So to relate it to different situations is possible?
    To say that I have nothing of apples, is very real. I have no apples. Simple idea.
    But to relate it to the Universe, something we can't even begin to comprehend, is ridiculous. For Nothingness in that relation means a lack of ANYTHING. But wouldn't that mean NO dimensional state as well? Everything in our Universe though lies in the Space/Time thread though, does it not? So then even a lack of energy or matter is still a lack of energy/matter IN a thread of Space/Time? So there may be no energy/matter, but there is still the thread of space/time?

    You know, when you really get to thinking about this stuff, you realize how useless this debate is!!!
  20. Fukushi -meta consciousness- Registered Senior Member

    For you maby,...too much to comprehend,...and don't get so angry frustrated.
  21. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    It's useless because it doesn't aid us in any way.
    Personally, I find most of NASA to be a complete waste of money. How much does the U.S. government spend on NASA, billions a year? NASA is basically a cold war left over like the CIA that has little value compared to other areas the money could be spent. If it takes us trillions of dollars to discover time travel, would that aid humanity more than if we'd spend that money towards eliminating homelessness? True, these things are less interesting (MUCH), but in my opinion, more important.
  22. Fukushi -meta consciousness- Registered Senior Member

    Mirror yourself said the blind man to himself

    You refer to yourself when you say 'us'? Or do you refer to me in a position of an outsider?
    Do you acspect something only to be usefull if it is benificial or helps you? What if it helps others? Could you settle with that knowlegde? Bearing that in mind?

    Tell me in what way you expect me to help you and I will,...I have a good idear tough. But it's not helpfull to ask help just to deny and neclect it afterwards,...by stating that you didn't want someone to give you some answers: He who seeks must not be surprised when there are answers presented to him/her. the seeker will find his quest, to solve the quest, one must be questionable,suseptible and sceptical, ect,...

    It is not my intension nor my mission however to impose any threat to anyone,...my proper funtion is also not to lecture you on how to comprehend the vastness of the universe,...my job also does not exists out of telling you what you already know,...(I hope)
    It is also not my aim to discuss this hereby,...(don't fight)

    Altough I do agree to some height with your conclusions, I must also state that there are more sides to look at, and more perspectives to dis-engage of then you presume. (come to the point=yourself)

    Now NASA has some aspects that are mutual beneficial,...for NASA and for 'us' and hereby I don't mean just the states,...but the world. How much money would you spend on research if you knew that this could give an ANSWER to every single dissease,...(for expl.) that would end the suffering for thousands of people thoughout the world,... This actually is not a real aim hence it would counter-act the actual steps taken to control birth/deathrates trough the acutal manipulation of disseases. (like making war spreading disseases basically killing people, esspecially poor people) Until there is a change in mentallity (pro-human instead of contra-human) there wil always be this exploitation of the peoples of this world, yes,...And If I overhear you,....then you don't sound like as if you can imagine how to make a change.

    Here's: the exact info on the info you request, just open from location.

    As not being American I should not probably be patriotic or something like it but I'm just being positive here: altough I now that there's a lot going on in evil minds and black buget funded programs ect,...and all WE get to see is this: It's no wonder that people tend to be reluctant to see what the world (not only Americans) is paying for.
    Now that's not entirely true,...
    Since its inception in 1958, NASA has accomplished many great scientific and technological feats in air and space.
    NASA technology also has been adapted for many non-aerospace uses by the private sector.
    NASA remains a leading force in scientific research and in stimulating public interest in aerospace exploration, as well as science and technology in general.
    Perhaps more importantly, The exploration of space has helped some people to view the Earth, themselves, and the universe in a new way.
    While the tremendous technical and scientific accomplishments of NASA demonstrate vividly that humans (not only Americans) can achieve previously inconceivable feats, we also are humbled by the realization that Earth is just a tiny "blue marble" in the cosmos.
    (And it can be destructed just as easally as Mars was by the explosion and then the impact of a planet killer, wich is in the unconsious realm of human beings, but in order to supres this people devised history at their wil, and not to reality.)
    Now don't mix up those two so easely as you do,...they may be founded by the same nation,...and they surely serve unilateral purpousses. But nowadays these institutes can not be regarded as leftovers,.... That would be the same as stating that (it's just a way of looking at things differently) you are a 'genetical left over' of your antcesters. (your genes hold also some cultural and behavioral aspects of their lives,...)

    No,...we humans (altough I do tend to look at earth as an alien) adopt ourselves to any given situation and circumstance we encounter,...or else suffer the consecuences (we all in fact do suffer from stupid decisions made over our heads wich we are made to believe we cannot change.

    Because we all have the power to tap into or to direct ourselves to other experiances if we want,...(or if nessesary) so that in our turn we may give birth to this vision we endorsed troughout our lives. Do not believe the misconception that there is nothing to change,...esspecially: don't be fatalistic: don't say: "I can't help it, it's in my genes" because you can help, you can change,....this world, now,....in this life,....

    Here's a culprit: The system is aimed at profit,...a system that is aimed at profit at all costs,...thus: people are not the goal in the first place,...they are merely instuments devised, educated ect,... by this system to aid the system in achieving the system's goal: profit. If the system is telling you that it's actually in service of people: then sure as hell it's aiming at the people who are at the end of the money-line.

    Did Jesus pose the questions or did he held the answers? and do you not suppose the answer is already (or at least a part of) the answer? Are the teachings of Boudha maby familiar by you? thoughs really CAN be comprehended,...it's just difficult to explain,...or is it just devised to sustain a level of re-action,...on your behalf,...do you find yourself lectured by many people? Or is it just you who want to lecture others? did you come here to read or just to spread some mayhem and discontent? Do I offend you or did I do so in any way? Are you never angry with yourself? And : great questioning this contribute to nothingness,...by you,....any more idears that help you?
    And I do NOT fail to see what all this has to do in particular with this thread: NOTHING

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    Last edited: Mar 9, 2002
  23. Tyler Registered Senior Member

    Very nicely said, first of all.

    For starters, my quote on the bottom. My 'Great are not...' quote. It took me 2 months of studying philosophy from Socrates to Kant, from St. Alms to Neitzsche before I realized the truth in 'the only knowledge is in knowing that you know nothing'. I began to understand that there was far too much possible truth for me to know the exact right answer. Then about a year later I discovered that was completely the wrong way of looking at it (or, to me it was). The only truth, in my belief, is that there is an infinite number of questions. That with every answer we come to, multiple questions arise. So, to me the truth is that those who discover the next questions, are those who have aided man and knowledge. If you simply answer a question, you have halted progress. If you answer a question, then pose the next one, you have continued the search for knowledge and technology. Or, if simply you ask the question, you have still encouraged and pushed the search for knowledge.

    Anyway, that's not factual so much as a personal opinion.

    By 'us' I meant humanity. I understand and know the technological advancements which are directly resultant of NASA and space travel in general. I understand how important it was during the Cold War and even how some today view it as a cultural race and journey. I understand the attraction to it (as I myself am incredibly wondered, intrigued and mystified by it). But even with these things, I still believe the money could be better spent elsewhere.

    I love computers. They are one of my greatest sources of learning, entertainment and passtime. And I realize that chances are, without space travel, we would not have the kind of accessibility to internet or computer technology. Yet, as much as I love it, I believe I would rather see the millions or billions (I can't seem to find an amount online, that link you put sadly doesn't seem to work for me) of dollars given to the poor and homeless than I would see it given to developing new technology for me. It's not that I'm a humanitarian or anything, I just don't understand the selfishness involved in believing we should work on the problems of space/time and discover how to travel through millions upon millions of miles in small amounts of time before we should take care of the problem surrounding us.

    Not to sound like some crazy Marxist, but isn't this the whole idea that so many people were once against in democracy? The concept of bettering the wealthy before bettering the poor?

    On another note, I would rather be lectured than lecture. I believe it was Budha himself (correct me if I'm wrong) who posed the question; why do you think we have two ears and only one mouth?

    I'm not angry in any way, just curious. The more I hear and experience, the more I learn. Experience is learning.

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