What happens after nirvana, liberation, perfection?

[EmptyForceOfChi]

But this contradicts the views of Gautama Buddha and others...they do not describe it as the void...which is just like deep sleep, rather they describe it as an experience outside of all concievable experience....I am guessing it is like infinity itself...

exactly.

i used to follow buddhism too, they say that nirvana is reached and you are void of your ego,

so if your ego is gone, then you do not desire anymore like you used to, without desire combined with ultimate power and your own reality you will cease to exist due to your own power creating your non existence, as you have no desire or ego,

think about it,

peace.

 

[VitalOne]

exactly.

i used to follow buddhism too, they say that nirvana is reached and you are void of your ego,

so if your ego is gone, then you do not desire anymore like you used to, without desire combined with ultimate power and your own reality you will cease to exist due to your own power creating your non existence, as you have no desire or ego,

think about it,

peace.

Nah I disagree, from personal experience the highest happiness (nirvana) is far beyond the simple void of deep relaxation....what happens must be some type of infinite experience...but for now we can only speculate...

But for people who worship emptiness, the void, they will attain just that, the void, deep sleep, not the highest happiness

I don't really like that term ego, from my personal experience there really is no ego, there is only impulses that compel you to think and act in certain ways, when you destroy these defiling impulses then you become "egoless" but there was no ego in the beginning at all, just impulses...

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

you sound like the damn abbot, thats it im getting my buddhist whacking stick out,

see when you rid yourself of selfishness, and you become totaly selfless, you lose your desire to want happyness for yourself, when you have totaly extinguished your earthly urges for pleasure, you no longer desire this magical heaven like existence and are totally at ease with not existing atall, because you have become perfect in every way, you no longer need to attatch yourself with the emotion of happyness, so therefore no longer need to fulfill your desire to have everything you ever wanted,


peace.

 

[lightgigantic]

I was not aware of these liberations, they are not mentioned in the BG, or in really any other places,

they are mentioned in various puranas - the Bg is an overview of vedic knowledge, not a detailed reference to every detail

but you are right, devotees will not be interested in these,

a devotee is not interested in sālokya, which is the concept of liberation for the buddhist/impersonalist

doesn't really change anything though....

depends on whether you are interested in having a conscious sense of self or not in a liberated state - which is after all the OP for this thread

Right but the point is that achieving Krishna's nature is still possible by other means besides devotion, Krishna considers devotion to be the best way...

in regards to krishna's nature

BG 18.55: One can understand Me as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of Me by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.

what someone is understanding by salokya is eternity (sat), as opposed to eternity(sat), knowledge(cit) and bliss(ananda), since salokya liberation is bereft of any element of consciousness

 

[Grantywanty]

you sound like the damn abbot, thats it im getting my buddhist whacking stick out,

see when you rid yourself of selfishness, and you become totaly selfless, you lose your desire to want happyness for yourself, when you have totaly extinguished your earthly urges for pleasure, you no longer desire this magical heaven like existence and are totally at ease with not existing atall, because you have become perfect in every way, you no longer need to attatch yourself with the emotion of happyness, so therefore no longer need to fulfill your desire to have everything you ever wanted,


peace.

So it is good to judge desire as bad.
Why can't buddhist be direct and honest about their dualism?

 

[VitalOne]

you sound like the damn abbot, thats it im getting my buddhist whacking stick out,

see when you rid yourself of selfishness, and you become totaly selfless, you lose your desire to want happyness for yourself, when you have totaly extinguished your earthly urges for pleasure, you no longer desire this magical heaven like existence and are totally at ease with not existing atall, because you have become perfect in every way, you no longer need to attatch yourself with the emotion of happyness, so therefore no longer need to fulfill your desire to have everything you ever wanted,


peace.

Do you base this on personal experience or what you speculate? Because I base what I'm saying on personal experience...the highest happiness is great...whats the point of life without happiness? You can speculate and do all types of things if you derive no happiness it is useless....Buddhists advocates say desire is the cause of suffering, but its not, its craving, like Gautama says...

 

[RoyLennigan]

Do you base this on personal experience or what you speculate? Because I base what I'm saying on personal experience...the highest happiness is great...whats the point of life without happiness? You can speculate and do all types of things if you derive no happiness it is useless....Buddhists advocates say desire is the cause of suffering, but its not, its craving, like Gautama says...

Desire may not cause visible suffering. But simply a motivation bringing something towards one's self, or towards one's cause will take it away from somewhere else. If one has no desire, then one is satisfied with what comes about naturally. It is not a loss of happiness, rather it is eternal happiness because you are satisfied with everything around you that comes unbeckoned. And so you are happy and you do not cause suffering for your happiness.

Craving is not seperate from desire, it is just a stronger manifestation of it. Because it is stronger, it weakens the conscious justification for that desire. So the person does not appreciate the object of desire as much.

 

[VitalOne]

Desire may not cause visible suffering. But simply a motivation bringing something towards one's self, or towards one's cause will take it away from somewhere else. If one has no desire, then one is satisfied with what comes about naturally. It is not a loss of happiness, rather it is eternal happiness because you are satisfied with everything around you that comes unbeckoned. And so you are happy and you do not cause suffering for your happiness.

Craving is not seperate from desire, it is just a stronger manifestation of it. Because it is stronger, it weakens the conscious justification for that desire. So the person does not appreciate the object of desire as much.

This isn't true. To be desireless is to be like the void, you have no motivation, no emotion, no high-energy, no sense of fulfillment, no true happiness, but you do have peace, great peace....but not happiness...the feeling is exactly like deep sleep

Now the highest happiness, you have high-energy, a sense of fulfillment, and true happiness, plus you also do not experience any forms of suffering, this is nirvana, this is the highest perfection. Again I base this off personal experiences.

As Gautama Buddha says:
"I never see what has been done; I only see what remains to be done."

Indicating that he had the highest happiness, as well as high-energy, fulfillment, etc...

Craving is the cause of suffering. Desire is nothing more than a good thought, think of all the times you suffered, it was because of craving, desperation, attachment, etc...not because of hopes, dreams, and other good thoughts...teaching people to suppress these things does not lead to happiness

But if you insist upon giving up all your hopes, dreams, and good thoughts, go ahead and see if you derive happiness from it...

 

[spidergoat]

In my interpretation, desire is an image of the future. When we indulge in desires, we necessarily ignore the present. An unhealthy attachment to these future images, and their disconnect with the present situation can cause suffering. I think it's possible to live entirely in the present and still be energetic and happy. When we are no longer attached to our desires, we can indulge in thoughts of the future that deal with planning and motivation with no ill effects.

 

[VitalOne]

In my interpretation, desire is an image of the future. When we indulge in desires, we necessarily ignore the present. An unhealthy attachment to these future images, and their disconnect with the present situation can cause suffering. I think it's possible to live entirely in the present and still be energetic and happy. When we are no longer attached to our desires, we can indulge in thoughts of the future that deal with planning and motivation with no ill effects.

I agree with this completely, you should always remain unattached, but you shouldn't suppress your deep-rooted emotions, this causes unhappiness, you can still have desires and be non-attached

 

[VitalOne]

they are mentioned in various puranas - the Bg is an overview of vedic knowledge, not a detailed reference to every detail

a devotee is not interested in sālokya, which is the concept of liberation for the buddhist/impersonalist

depends on whether you are interested in having a conscious sense of self or not in a liberated state - which is after all the OP for this thread



in regards to krishna's nature

Thanks for pointing this out I didn't know about this

BG 18.55: One can understand Me as I am, as the Supreme Personality of Godhead, only by devotional service. And when one is in full consciousness of Me by such devotion, he can enter into the kingdom of God.

what someone is understanding by salokya is eternity (sat), as opposed to eternity(sat), knowledge(cit) and bliss(ananda), since salokya liberation is bereft of any element of consciousness

But the translation is spurious, the word 'only' isn't there anywhere

bhaktyā — by pure devotional service; mām — Me; abhijānāti — one can know; yāvān — as much as; yaḥ ca asmi — as I am; tattvataḥ — in truth; tataḥ — thereafter; mām — Me; tattvataḥ — in truth; jñātvā — knowing; viśate — he enters; tat-anantaram — thereafter

While Krishna certainly prefers devotion over all methods, he also mentions knowledge (as well as karma yoga, dhyana yoga, etc...):
"By becoming fixed in this knowledge, one can attain to the transcendental nature like My own. Thus established, one is not born at the time of creation or disturbed at the time of dissolution" (BG 14.2)

"All these devotees are undoubtedly magnanimous souls, but he who is situated in knowledge of Me I consider to be just like My own self. Being engaged in My transcendental service, he is sure to attain Me, the highest and most perfect goal" (BG 7.18)

As for Supreme Lord, he is unknowable, like Brahman, but the origin of Brahm, the origin of the unborn...

 

[RoyLennigan]

This isn't true.

How do you know?

 

[RoyLennigan]

Craving is the cause of suffering. Desire is nothing more than a good thought, think of all the times you suffered, it was because of craving, desperation, attachment, etc...not because of hopes, dreams, and other good thoughts...teaching people to suppress these things does not lead to happiness

But if you insist upon giving up all your hopes, dreams, and good thoughts, go ahead and see if you derive happiness from it...

Yes, think of all the times you suffered. You suffered because you desired something else. You desired a different experience that gives you happiness.

I am not saying that to reach nirvana you must give up your hopes and dreams. I am saying that when you do reach nirvana, your hopes and dreams will not be yours--they will be inherent in the being of all things collectively. To have individual hopes and dreams is to take something from something else for your own individual benefit over other things and people.

 

[VitalOne]

Yes, think of all the times you suffered. You suffered because you desired something else. You desired a different experience that gives you happiness.

I am not saying that to reach nirvana you must give up your hopes and dreams. I am saying that when you do reach nirvana, your hopes and dreams will not be yours--they will be inherent in the being of all things collectively. To have individual hopes and dreams is to take something from something else for your own individual benefit over other things and people.

What you're describing completely agrees with what i said, the source of suffering is craving, you reason you suffer is because "you desired a different experience" in other words you had craving caused by insecurities and impulses.....

The suffering is not because you had hopes, dreams, good thoughts, its because of the defiling impulse, the insecurity, the craving, the desperation, there's a big difference.....all suffering is caused by varying degrees of these defiling impulses...

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

So it is good to judge desire as bad.
Why can't buddhist be direct and honest about their dualism?

i wouldent say desire is bad or good, it depends on your opinion of good and bad i guess its subjective,

i cannot answer the second question you should ask a buddhist for a direct answer to that one maybe? i dont know i prefer to hit them with bamboo sticks.


peace.

 

[EmptyForceOfChi]

Do you base this on personal experience or what you speculate? Because I base what I'm saying on personal experience...the highest happiness is great...whats the point of life without happiness? You can speculate and do all types of things if you derive no happiness it is useless....Buddhists advocates say desire is the cause of suffering, but its not, its craving, like Gautama says...

i base this on what buddhists say, none of this is my personal opinion really, i guess you could call it personal experience within debates between me and other buddhists.

i study/practice shaolin gong fu at a temple wich has alot of buddhist monks there (not just shaolin zen buddhist but other types also) and certain monks say to me that if you reach nirvana then your ego and selfish desires would already be ridden, and you will have powers and your paradise etc,

so in return i say to them, so if i have no ego or desire for selfish wants then i wouldent want anything atall and i would cause myself to be non existent.

without pain you cannot know pleasure, without sad you cannot know happyness, without evil you cannot know good, just as the dao versus read, each comes from the other and depends on the other. without one the other will not exist.



peace.

 

[lightgigantic]

But the translation is spurious, the word 'only' isn't there anywhere

bhaktyā — by pure devotional service; mām — Me; abhijānāti — one can know; yāvān — as much as; yaḥ ca asmi — as I am; tattvataḥ — in truth; tataḥ — thereafter; mām — Me; tattvataḥ — in truth; jñātvā — knowing; viśate — he enters; tat-anantaram — thereafter

the word tattvatah is repeated twice
perhaps you would have a case if you could produce a verse that explicitly states how krishna can be known through brahman (since there are numeorus statements that declare brahman can be known through krishna)

While Krishna certainly prefers devotion over all methods, he also mentions knowledge (as well as karma yoga, dhyana yoga, etc...):

and these descriptions of different yoga conclude in the devotional aspect

eg

BG 6.47: And of all yogīs, the one with great faith who always abides in Me, thinks of Me within himself, and renders transcendental loving service to Me — he is the most intimately united with Me in yoga and is the highest of all. That is My opinion.

BG 5.29: A person in full consciousness of Me, knowing Me to be the ultimate beneficiary of all sacrifices and austerities, the Supreme Lord of all planets and demigods, and the benefactor and well-wisher of all living entities, attains peace from the pangs of material miseries.

"By becoming fixed in this knowledge, one can attain to the transcendental nature like My own. Thus established, one is not born at the time of creation or disturbed at the time of dissolution" (BG 14.2)

this verse is an intro to the subject of the three gunas, but even the next verse establishes that krishna is the source of brahman

BG 14.3: The total material substance, called Brahman, is the source of birth, and it is that Brahman that I impregnate, making possible the births of all living beings, O son of Bharata.

also confirmed in Mundaka Upanisad (3.1.3)

“One who sees that golden-colored Personality of Godhead, the Supreme Lord, the supreme actor, who is the source of the Supreme Brahman, is liberated.”

(the sanskrit is brahma-yonim - source of brahman)

"All these devotees are undoubtedly magnanimous souls,

meaning as previously established
BG 7.16: O best among the Bhāratas, four kinds of pious men begin to render devotional service unto Me — the distressed, the desirer of wealth, the inquisitive, and he who is searching for knowledge of the Absolute.

all 4 of these devotees are great souls

but he who is situated in knowledge of Me I consider to be just like My own self.

meaning one who fulfills the criteria of the previous verse

BG 7.17: Of these, the one who is in full knowledge and who is always engaged in pure devotional service is the best. For I am very dear to him, and he is dear to Me.

is considered to be situated in full knowledge

Being engaged in My transcendental service, he is sure to attain Me, the highest and most perfect goal" (BG 7.18)

confirms the path of bhakti

As for Supreme Lord, he is unknowable, like Brahman, but the origin of Brahm, the origin of the unborn...

the reason that brahman is considered difficult for one who is embodied

BG 12.5: For those whose minds are attached to the unmanifested, impersonal feature of the Supreme, advancement is very troublesome. To make progress in that discipline is always difficult for those who are embodied.

is that brahman is not knowable - it involves only the element of eternity (knowledge, the process of knowledge and the knower are homogenized in brahman - try and understand that )

paramatma realization (seeing god in the heart of all living entities)involves eternity and knowledge (the knowledge element is knowing the distinction between the consciousness of god an d the consciousness of the living entity, even though both consciousnesses are eternal)

bhagavan realization involves the added element of ananda or happiness, since eternity and knowledge ar ethere with the added element of service, or loving reciprocation between god and the living entity bereft of the dysfunctionalism of ignorance (associated with material consciousness)

all three, bhagavan, paramatma and brahman , are nondualistic aspects of the absolute - much like the sun disc in the sky, and the diffusion of sunlight are the inseparable qualities of the sun

 

[RoyLennigan]

What you're describing completely agrees with what i said, the source of suffering is craving, you reason you suffer is because "you desired a different experience" in other words you had craving caused by insecurities and impulses.....

The suffering is not because you had hopes, dreams, good thoughts, its because of the defiling impulse, the insecurity, the craving, the desperation, there's a big difference.....all suffering is caused by varying degrees of these defiling impulses...

craving is desire. All I am saying is that desire causes suffering, maybe not in yourself, but somewhere. If you lose your ego, then you lose your desire and you let things come to you. You allow your body to need things, which you may find. But your mind is content with whatever happens to come.

Also, not all suffering is from a 'defiling impules'. A lot of it is because of a lack of, or a desire or craving for something.

 

[nameless]

"What happens after nirvana, liberation, perfection?"

Inherent in the question is the error of the concept of 'after'.

The 'understanding' within the 'states' mentioned includes understanding of the 'illusory' nature of 'time', like all of 'perceived existence'..
So, there is only 'after' in the delusional dream of life of those that have not (yet?) 'awakened' .

It is the 'after' comment/concept, though, that allows for the mind to roam and play (or appear to do so, though it is just 'memory'). But it does obfuscate and obscure any real 'meaning' to the question.

 

[nameless]

Meister Eckhart;-

"I say that next to God there is no nobler thing than suffering. Right suffering is the mother of all virtues, for right suffering so subdues the heart, it cannot rise to pride but perforce is lowly."
(Suffering being the endurance of 'pain')