What happens after nirvana, liberation, perfection?

[VitalOne]

Meister Eckhart;-

"I say that next to God there is no nobler thing than suffering. Right suffering is the mother of all virtues, for right suffering so subdues the heart, it cannot rise to pride but perforce is lowly."
(Suffering being the endurance of 'pain')

I disagree, suffering is the root of all evil, if there was no suffering there would be nothing wrong in the world, life would be enjoyable....but the only way to actually escape suffering is to attain nirvana...other methods are only temporary solutions...

 

[nameless]

Your disagreement is noted.
Peace

 

[nameless]

I disagree, suffering is the root of all evil, if there was no suffering there would be nothing wrong in the world, life would be enjoyable..

'Wrong'??? According to what 'standard' do you 'judge'?
Shallow words at best..
Suffering is, as I have said, the endurance of pain. That IS life. Suffering ends with the end of life.

..but the only way to actually escape suffering is to attain nirvana...other methods are only temporary solutions...

So, do you speak from 'personal experience', 'imaginative fantasy' or a 'belief infection'?

 

[lightgigantic]

'
Suffering is, as I have said, the endurance of pain. That IS life. Suffering ends with the end of life.

to this one could easily say .....

So, do you speak from 'personal experience', 'imaginative fantasy' or a 'belief infection'?

raises the issue on what authority do we begin a discussion on the end of life/liberation/salvation etc

 

[VitalOne]

'Wrong'??? According to what 'standard' do you 'judge'?
Shallow words at best..
Suffering is, as I have said, the endurance of pain. That IS life. Suffering ends with the end of life.


So, do you speak from 'personal experience', 'imaginative fantasy' or a 'belief infection'?

I speak purely from personal experience...suffering is horrible I don't know why people just give up and say I'll just have to deal with it when they can change things....although at some point I was just like that too until I experienced how non-suffering is....according to psychology whether you realize or not you unconsciously desire happiness, and end to all suffering...

 

[RoyLennigan]

Suffering is the cause of all action.

 

[VitalOne]

Suffering is the cause of all action.

Thats not true speaking from personal experience when you experience the greatest happiness, the highest joy you feel like taking action (as Gautama Buddha said), you feel like changing everything for the better......

 

[RoyLennigan]

you feel like changing everything for the better......

If you feel like changing it for the better then that means you are suffering a worse environment than you would be happy with; you crave for there to be specific change.

 

[VitalOne]

If you feel like changing it for the better then that means you are suffering a worse environment than you would be happy with; you crave for there to be specific change.

It is not craving, it is not desperation, it a good thought, a good feeling, there's a very clear difference. However I will agree that deep-relaxation causes what you're talking about. You feel like nothingness a very useless void. But for people who achieved the actual highest form of freedom, power, and bliss, its just like Gautama Buddha says:
"I never see what has been done; I only see what remains to be done"

 

[Dharma]

Ill try to help you.

Since you asked, why do you think it matters what happens after nirvana?

---
If you understand "it", all things are One;
if you do not, they are different and seperate.
If you do not understand "it", all things are One;
if you do, they are different and seperate.

 

[RoyLennigan]

You feel like nothingness a very useless void.

I was not talking of a "useless void". If that is what you imagine, then we are talking of different experiences. What I am talking about is knowing the path of everything and in doing so, you don't need to exact your own will, because your will is the same as everything around you. It is the opposite of void and the opposite of useless. You feel everything and help everything.

 

[nameless]

to this one could easily say .....

So, do you speak from 'personal experience', 'imaginative fantasy' or a 'belief infection'?

It is easy to say anything. That doesn't give the silly wordplay any meaning. Shall we accept that I speak from experience, both 'personal' and and the 'personal' of others. Join the experiment if you like. If you have never felt pain in your life, and if allowed to continue, will feel none (all highly unlikely) than you will still be the anomaly. This is simple stuff, really.. (silly word games aside..)

raises the issue on what authority do we begin a discussion on the end of life/liberation/salvation etc

The authority of all available evidence that can and has been garnered on the subject, available for critical evaluation.

I speak of 'end' knowing that there is no 'sequence' or 'end'. I speak in common parlance and 'meanings' for ease of understanding.
And I speak from experience.
Happy? Understand? Not too difficult either.

Do you have a point?

 

[nameless]

I speak purely from personal experience...suffering is horrible I don't know why people just give up and say I'll just have to deal with it when they can change things....although at some point I was just like that too until I experienced how non-suffering is....according to psychology whether you realize or not you unconsciously desire happiness, and end to all suffering...

Psychology be damned! Useless..
We seem to have different definitions of 'suffering'. Otherwise you couldn't have stated that you 'experienced how non-suffering is' (unless you just meant a 'moment' without pain .. and age counts here..)
The definition I use is that 'suffering=the endurance of pain' (for however long a period).

If pain weren't of value, evolution would have weeded it out a long time ago, not enhanced our receptive capabilities. Personal comfort seems a rather shallow perspective for validating anything other than 'personal comfort' (from which springs people's concepts of 'right', 'wrong', 'evil', 'good, 'bad'.. etc.. all related to one's comfort.. again, seems shallow..)

Well.. getting rapidly bored with the subject..so..
Peace

 

[nameless]

VitalOne said; ...desire happiness, and end to all suffering...

Bye the bye.. suffering (pain) does not necessarily, again, preclude 'happiness'. They are not inextricably linked, nor necessary 'context' for definition.

 

[nameless]

If you feel like changing it for the better then that means you are suffering a worse environment than you would be happy with; you crave for there to be specific change.

Exactly! 'Judgemental prideful dissatisfaction with what 'is' leads to the 'suffering' of unhappiness!
Damn 'pride' again!
Spot on!

 

[lightgigantic]

Nameless“

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
to this one could easily say .....

So, do you speak from 'personal experience', 'imaginative fantasy' or a 'belief infection'?
”
It is easy to say anything. That doesn't give the silly wordplay any meaning. Shall we accept that I speak from experience, both 'personal' and and the 'personal' of others. Join the experiment if you like. If you have never felt pain in your life, and if allowed to continue, will feel none (all highly unlikely) than you will still be the anomaly. This is simple stuff, really.. (silly word games aside..)

the thread is discussing the notion of activities after liberation - obviously a discussion on what we have suffered in our material experience is not the right authority to begin such a discussion (unless you are trying to decry the very notion of liberation)

“
raises the issue on what authority do we begin a discussion on the end of life/liberation/salvation etc
”
The authority of all available evidence that can and has been garnered on the subject, available for critical evaluation.

is personal experience of pain such an authority?
of course pain and suffering may lead to an inquiry about the nature of liberation, but to say that the end of suffering is the end of life is a bit out to field, since you are not at the end of life (and probably not at the end of suffering either)

I speak of 'end' knowing that there is no 'sequence' or 'end'. I speak in common parlance and 'meanings' for ease of understanding.
And I speak from experience.
Happy? Understand? Not too difficult either.

Do you have a point?

my point is that such experiences, while valid to the degree that they shape our determination in this world (after all, what else would we call on) are not sufficient to determine the nature of life after liberation, simply because our experience is not even at the point of liberation (what to speak of the point after liberation)

So can the subject be discussed in relation to one's experiences?
yes, but our experiences in relation to personalities (eg saintly persons) and statements (eg scriptures) deemed credible in the field

 

[VitalOne]

Psychology be damned! Useless..
We seem to have different definitions of 'suffering'. Otherwise you couldn't have stated that you 'experienced how non-suffering is' (unless you just meant a 'moment' without pain .. and age counts here..)
The definition I use is that 'suffering=the endurance of pain' (for however long a period).

If pain weren't of value, evolution would have weeded it out a long time ago, not enhanced our receptive capabilities. Personal comfort seems a rather shallow perspective for validating anything other than 'personal comfort' (from which springs people's concepts of 'right', 'wrong', 'evil', 'good, 'bad'.. etc.. all related to one's comfort.. again, seems shallow..)

Well.. getting rapidly bored with the subject..so..
Peace

Suffering is anything contrary to the highest point of happiness which consists of high-energy, a sense of fulfillment, and inner joy....

I still don't understand why you would want pain...this type of ignorance is what causes more suffering in the world......

See that boredom you experience, it is suffering stemming from a defiling impulse, an insecurity, it only exists as that....

 

[nameless]

Suffering is anything contrary to the highest point of happiness which consists of high-energy, a sense of fulfillment, and inner joy....

According to your own personal subjective understanding and definition.. Ok..
On the other hand, 'you' understanding and 'definition' does not in any way constrain or alter 'my' personal experience nor my understanding, from 'this' perspective. I already gave the definitions that I accept when using the word 'suffering'. In that light, my words are clear.

I still don't understand why you would want pain..

Please show me where I mentioned that 'I want pain', or anything else, for that matter? Perhaps if you just read and tried to understand what I actually write instead of attempting to interpret, with me right here... Just ask my intended meaning if unclear. That is how communication is achieved..

.this type of ignorance is what causes more suffering in the world.....

*Sigh* (no response)

I feel that we will continue to experience a failure to communicate as long as you think you 'know' what I mean by your personal interpretation rather than caring enough to inquire. I'm here to tell you that, actually, despite what you may think that you know of my 'words and intent', you don't. If you'd like to understand my intent and meaning, just ask for elucidation. If not, assumptions are a waste..
K?
Peace...

See that boredom you experience, it is suffering stemming from a defiling impulse, an insecurity, it only exists as that....

Nonsense... pure trash.. hahahaha..
I already told you that I do not adhere to your personal definition of 'suffering'. So, there is no application, here...
You spend way too much time thinking you know anything of 'me' or anyone else, while looking (in the mirror) through your own 'dark lens' of 'self' (false ego) and imagining any application to anyone 'else'..
All you can see is YOU!
That 'boredom' comment was just a figure of speech indicating a lack of interest in pursuing a rather obvious (to me, anyway) and superficial topic, with 'people' unwilling or unable to understand the basic concepts that I can use.. a waste of time.. ok?
Lighten up a bit..
Breathe...
Peace..

 

[nameless]

..raises the issue on what authority do we begin a discussion on the end of life/liberation/salvation etc

My resp;
The authority of all available evidence that can and has been garnered on the subject, available for critical evaluation, and personal experience. ”

is personal experience of pain such an authority?

On 'pain', yes.

of course pain and suffering may lead to an inquiry about the nature of liberation, but to say that the end of suffering is the end of life is a bit out to field

Not at all. I have already defined 'suffering'. It is not 'pain AND suffering' it is 'pain IS suffering'! Suffering is the 'endurance of pain'. Full stop! End of definition. This is my intended meaning when using the word 'suffering'. Like it or not, THAT is my intended definition when I use the word. Is it that difficult a concept? It is in the dictionary among the other definitions.. Whats the problem?
There remains absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there is anything 'going on' after death, much less the 'living' mental perceptions and conceptions of 'pain/suffering'!

my point is that such experiences, while valid to the degree that they shape our determination in this world (after all, what else would we call on) are not sufficient to determine the nature of life after liberation, simply because our experience is not even at the point of liberation (what to speak of the point after liberation)

Our?
I speak from the 'perspective' of 'liberation/enlightenment/innocence/' whatever.. from experience.
I too can experience the 'linear communal illusion' of 'life'. And from that 'perspective' there is nothing different 'after' liberation/etc..'
Ok?
My words are experientially valid as I am Here, no idle speculation, no 'perhaps'..
Ok?
My experience is that the only difference, is not the beautiful unfolding nature of our illusions of 'life', but in 'access to' 'Consciousness', which (ineffably) cannot be 'discussed' but 'experienced'..

So can the subject be discussed in relation to one's experiences?

Only if actually experienced and validated.

yes, but our experiences in relation to personalities (eg saintly persons) and statements (eg scriptures) deemed credible in the field

Some are a bit more and some a bit less rigorous in finding support for the validity of experience. A 'belief virus' will accept anything and twist what it must to 'justify' the 'belief'. Science and logic and experiment validate and support. Emotions need to 'justify'. Agendas..

 

[lightgigantic]

Nameless

Originally Posted by lightgigantic
..raises the issue on what authority do we begin a discussion on the end of life/liberation/salvation etc
”
My resp;
The authority of all available evidence that can and has been garnered on the subject,

ok

available for critical evaluation,

ok

and personal experience. ”

if a person is not liberated, what value is their expression on the nature of life after liberation?

“
is personal experience of pain such an authority?
”
On 'pain', yes.

how about liberation?

“
of course pain and suffering may lead to an inquiry about the nature of liberation, but to say that the end of suffering is the end of life is a bit out to field
”
Not at all. I have already defined 'suffering'. It is not 'pain AND suffering' it is 'pain IS suffering'! Suffering is the 'endurance of pain'. Full stop! End of definition.

and how does that define or qualify one for determining the nature of existence after liberation (assuming that you are working with the definition of liberation as that state that id liberated from pain/suffering ... otherwise what is it liberating us from?)

This is my intended meaning when using the word 'suffering'. Like it or not, THAT is my intended definition when I use the word.

I don't see any problem with your definition of suffering ... my inquiry was more into the liberation side of things, particularly in regards to your statement that the end of life is the end of suffering

Is it that difficult a concept? It is in the dictionary among the other definitions.. Whats the problem?

once again, no problem with your definition of suffering/pain

There remains absolutely no evidence whatsoever that there is anything 'going on' after death, much less the 'living' mental perceptions and conceptions of 'pain/suffering'!

there remains no evidence for many things, like for instance that entity we call "the mind" is not evidenced (by empiricism - I assume that is what you mean by the word "evidence") either - but perhaps this is all a bit off topic since the thread deals specifically with the question of what happens after liberation, which assumes this body is not all in all to existence

“
my point is that such experiences, while valid to the degree that they shape our determination in this world (after all, what else would we call on) are not sufficient to determine the nature of life after liberation, simply because our experience is not even at the point of liberation (what to speak of the point after liberation)
”
Our?
I speak from the 'perspective' of 'liberation/enlightenment/innocence/' whatever.. from experience.

how can there be experience of liberation in the presence of suffering?

I too can experience the 'linear communal illusion' of 'life'.

I have no idea what that is, much less whether I or others also have experienced it

And from that 'perspective' there is nothing different 'after' liberation/etc..'
Ok?

I think you have to clear up what the linear communal illusion of life is

My words are experientially valid as I am Here, no idle speculation, no 'perhaps'..

I don't doubt that - but the question is are your experiences valid enough to determine the nature of life after liberation while your experiences involve suffering/pain?

Ok?
My experience is that the only difference, is not the beautiful unfolding nature of our illusions of 'life', but in 'access to' 'Consciousness', which (ineffably) cannot be 'discussed' but 'experienced'..

if that consciousness involves pain/suffering, how can it be liberated?

“
yes, but our experiences in relation to personalities (eg saintly persons) and statements (eg scriptures) deemed credible in the field
”
Some are a bit more and some a bit less rigorous in finding support for the validity of experience. A 'belief virus' will accept anything and twist what it must to 'justify' the 'belief'. Science and logic and experiment validate and support. Emotions need to 'justify'. Agendas..

which is why I originally opened with attention to whether your statement that the end of suffering is the end of life is a belief virus since by logic and science you are at the end of neither life nor suffering