War between US and Iran/Iraq/Syria/Lebanon

Discussion in 'Politics' started by Schmelzer, Jan 8, 2020.

  1. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    I'm not happy about this shootdown at all, most of the people on that plane were dual Canadian citizens, some of them from my own hometown, it's possible I might have even personally crossed paths with a few of them once or twice. I hope our government and the victims' families sue the pants off Iran around the world and seize whatever assets the Iranian government owns in Canada until it agrees to pay billions in compensation.

    So you have hundreds of independent news agencies and governments around the world reporting that Iran shot it down, we have Iranians releasing home videos of the shootdown, and you casually dismiss it all as propaganda with no analysis whatsoever. Then we have some vodka-swilling fifth column Putin fan club like Moon of Alabama making up self-contradictory bullshit as always and you accept it as indisputable fact. If you can't understand why Iran is delaying Ukrainian inspectors from accessing the crash site even though it's their plane, just as inspectors were blocked and delayed by Russia after every major chemical attack in Syria and the MH-17 shootdown, just as every nuclear monitoring site in Russia suddenly shut down for a week due to a "glitch" (faulty Windows update maybe?) when their crappy nuclear cruise missile went kaput...

    When people act like they have something to hide, that's usually because they're actually hiding something, and it's hard for myself and others here to believe you're really stupid enough not to see that.

    Of course evidence is necessary, and when a bunch of flat-headed retards suddenly showed up at the MH-17 site with guns and denied inspectors access to the evidence while they looted everything, it shows that there's something they don't want the world to see... except in cases like yours- there's nothing that needs to be hidden from you personally, because your eyelids are permanently half-closed and you miss a lot of obvious details as a result.

    There's plenty of video and evidence that the plane was shot down, do you think a flying saucer did it? Speaking of hopes, even Iran now claims they didn't really intend to produce US casualties in their recent attacks, which means their initial state news agency claims of killing 80+ was an obvious propaganda lie just like most of what comes out of their mouths (and yours), and your fantasies of 50+ Americans dying and being covered up are about as realistic as your chances of showering regularly or seducing a pretty girl.
  2. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  3. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    If you have a closer look at the images you posted can you see actual equipment/ hardware damage other than easily replaced buildings?
    It appears all buildings hit, if indeed they were hit, were empty..

    Basically Trump stuffed up, and to prevent massive instability Iran helped to stage a retaliation, and cover up his incompetence.
    In the mean time setting up a paranoid no fly zone with out proper notice given to civilian authorities. Com Plane get's shot down by not one missile but two missiles ( why two missiles when one would have been sufficient?) . Paranoia exposed. Another big cover up under way...

    Starting a thread that incorrectly and perhaps preemptively states that the USA is at war, is also a good example of paranoia...

    Also according to the Iranians I have spoken to here Sulemani's vocal daughter is a green card holder. As are most of the leading Iranian officials so perhaps her vitriolic statements need to be considered as hollow until she throws away her green card?
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2020
  4. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  5. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    Also the thread topic title is completely dishonest and should be changed by the mods, because the US is neither officially at war with Lebanon, Iraq or Syria, nor is it currently doing anything that the overwhelming majority in any of those countries opposes. With half of all Syrians displaced and receiving no representation from the Assad regime nor showing any inclination to return to his control, half of the remainder still fighting against Assad and most of those not currently fighting having to be constantly watched and commanded at gunpoint, even if the US started bombing Damascus one could not accurately say "the US is at war with Syria". Russia is not Syria and its hand-picked puppets don't represent the Syrian people.

    As for damage to equipment, no doubt Schmelzer is fantasizing that a dozen F-35's got blown up along with the entire US arsenal of patriot and cruise missiles, plus all command and control facilities, plus the janitor's closet. Even if Iran had managed to do all that, which it clearly hasn't, the economic damage the US is doing to Iran through sanctions alone would still be far greater. That doesn't even count the billions of dollars in Iranian missiles, vehicles and buildings the US and Israel have been consistently blowing to smithereens between Iraq and Syria every time the militias try to ship them.

    If I were Trump, my thinking on this (when I'm not busy doing favours for Putin) would be that equipment is always replaceable and sanctions are an adequate retaliation, but the life of every US soldier and US civilian in the middle east is worth more than that of Ayatollah Khamenei himself, and hence he would be personally targeted if he ordered any more flareups resulting in casualties, with plenty of advance notice before it got to that point.
  6. Google AdSense Guest Advertisement

    to hide all adverts.
  7. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

    someone selling flags to be burnt
    a dirt poor religious extremist arguing with a fellow religious extremist capitalist about which types of flags are better value for money based on how well they burn.

    judging peoples family's on how expensive their burning flag is and how well it burnt at their flag burning party.

    meanwhile their infant mortality rate is one of the highest in the world ...
  8. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    I think the following quote from Khamenei is sufficiently important:

    I have many times explained the concepts I use to evaluate sources. One of the most important ones is that the claims are supported with links. Then, the site argues with presenting facts, instead of emotions.
    Up to now, it is much too early to make conclusions. That Bellingcat is involved strongly suggests that Western secret services are involved (most probable is, AFAIR, the British one, but I may err here). This makes, of course, a false flag more plausible. To believe some video today, in a situation where some secret services may have some interest in faking them be quite stupid. I will wait what the official investigation shows.
    Means, you are not yet happy, but have some hope. And if some Western "court" finds something to steal from Iranian property, you will be happy.

    Several Iranians filming for no reason at all a particular piece of the night sky at a time when the average person simply sleeps are, in fact, very suspicious. If true, one would have to suspect that they have received information that at that time in that direction something will happen which they should film.

    Fortunately, it is more probable that this was simply a video from Syria when those US cruise missiles were shot by Syrian air defense - there were many of them, so it was quite natural that at that time many people have made videos of this, they had enough time for this. And then to "geolocalize" that quite standard building wherever one wants in the Arabic world is trivial.

    In the West, there may be some hundreds of different names for news agencies, but de facto there is only one. Of course, as every reasonable person I wait until there will be the real evidence from the ground, from the black boxes and so on. And a news agency which reports that Iran shot it down is certainly not serious, a serious news agency will tell only that some Western politicians have made such claims. About the seriousness of the politicians, the Russians have summarized the situation in the following way:

    1. Iran claims that the recorders are damaged, there are no recordings of conversations and it is likely that they will not be able to obtain information
    2. The many-voiced whine from Ukarina, the USA, Canada and others - "Boeing is shot down by an Iranian missile"
    Zelensky - there could be a rocket.
    Pentagon - we spotted the launch of rockets from the satellite. By chance. But for sure.
    Trump - An Unforeseen Event Associated with Military Activity
    Trudeau - Iran is to blame for everything
    3. Iran "The recorders are damaged, but the memory modules are intact, we will decrypt." We can invite your experts.
    4. Trump "but maybe a technical malfunction"
    Green "we need a rocket version confirmation"
    Pompeo "most likely a technical problem"
    5. Iran. "It will take several months to decrypt the recorders, And the investigation a year or two."
    6. CNN relaxed "Iran shot down a Boeing with two missiles"
    Pristayko (Ukraine) "USA give supporting documents"
    7. Iran "We ask Russia to help in decoding recorders"
    8. meaningful silence ...
  9. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    All wars of the US after WW II were inofficial. So, this does not matter.

    The US occupies illegally parts of Syrian territory, moreover, the Iraq has requested the US to send specialists to organize the withdrawal, but the US has officially refused to withdraw. So, it is illegally occupying Iraq bases too. The fighting of the Shia parts of the Iraq army - the Shia militias - has already started. Hizbollah, which is part of the government of Lebanon, has made clear statements about their participation in the revenge of the murder of Suleimani. So, there is occupation, there is fighting against them or clear statements about this.
    LOL, funny fantasy numbers.
    Even more fun, I have simply corrected what was wrong with the "only a single hit" claim by QQ, once he made it. I made no claims about the real damage, and I couldn't care less. The point of the attacks was the following:
    1.) We are not afraid of a war, start to retaliate or be the chicken.
    2.) We have rockets which can hit accurately the place we like to hit. We have a lot of them, that's why we have made the shots with the older ones.
    3.) We do not aim in killing your soldiers in this first strike, that's why we have informed you about the attack before, giving them enough time to reach the bunkers, which is the only accessible US air defense which works, as we already know from the Houthi attacks against the Saudis.
    If the US troops are already running away, leaving only empty barracks, fine.
    Iran is already under sanctions, so that this does not change anything. You seem to think that the US can sanction and sanction and sanction again, and each time this will be horrible. No. The US has already escalated the sanctions much more than "US sanctions" could do, by threatening to punish foreign firms for trading by robbing their US property. Those who trade with Iran and Russia and other sanction victims don't care about such US sanctions anymore, they have nothing to lose. Your "billions of dollars" is nonsense, you see, it is you who makes unbased claims about the damage done, in this case by the Israeli (not US, just to inform you if you care) air strikes against Shia militias in Syria.

    By the way, wasn't that base which was hit the one Trump claimed to be worth billions, which he wants to get back if he leaves Iraq?
    Whatever the chicken thinks - he was the chicken, and run away. Khamenei would have started the third wave, this time a serious one, leaving a lot of dead soldiers, because without further information of the US, if Trump would have retaliated even with a single shot.

    Of course, Khamenei is not that interested in a war too, so he has given Trump a chance to run away but allowing him to claim "no victims" to present himself as strong enough for the US chickens like CptBork.

    Let's see. I have started the thread when the news came that the Iran has openly attacked US bases, and there has been the threat made by the POTUS that any Iranian retaliation would be answered with 52 hard attacks against Iranian targets. And you claim it is a good example of paranoia to name this war? Ok, it was nice to see that Trump, after this, simply accepted the role of the chicken and run away. And, as you can see from my second post in this thread, I have seen such a possibility already after the news that Khamenei promised the third wave coming together with the promised US retaliation. Once the US since WW II does not declare its wars, even the Korea, Vietnam and Iraq wars, declarations do not matter. Real war actions on the ground matter. They have started, with the US murdering an Iranian general, and the Iran retaliating by attacking the US bases. The war is, by the official claim of Khamenei, not finished, but will be finished only with the US leaving ME.

    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    Look at the flags behind the Iranian general making a statement. These are the flags of the organizations at war against the US.

    Irrelevant yellow press nonsense about family members of Iranian politicians disposed of.
  10. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

  11. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    naah it is just fake news... Iran trying to gain responsibility and with it credibility... lol
    A deep state attempt to get at Iranian Oil... no doubt...lol

    So what do you think about all your previous posts on the shooting down of the com jet subject... embarrassing yes?
    What do all your Russian military bloggers have to say now including the one you frequently quote from...?

    You will notice if you click on the link you provided that the blog you hold as credible has yet to recant 4 pages and thousands of words condemning those who believed the jet was mistakenly shot down by Iran Military...




    Please Register or Log in to view the hidden image!

    All BS and conspiracy theorists gone crazy...
    No one saying anything now... why?
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  12. RainbowSingularity Valued Senior Member

  13. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    You read the title of the Moon of Alabama article?
    What is the problem? The evidence was flimsy at that moment. BTW, I'm not surprised that in your picture you show only comments. Found nothing in the text which looks embarrassign for MoA? Who cares about comments? Most comments are BS, everywhere, some may contain interesting links. BTW, your remark "No one saying anything now... why?" is wrong too. Even the first commentator you have quoted, Den Lille Abe, said something again. And MoA has written a separate article, https://www.moonofalabama.org/2020/...dvertently-shot-down-the-ukrainian-plane.html which refers, as usual, to interesting information too.

    What would be the problem with my own postings? Here is the central point of my position:
    Which is what I have done. The first Russian blogger I quoted was simply right:
    They did, not? And the other blogger I quoted simply summarized what happened.

    So, I see no reason to be embarrassed, neither for what I wrote myself nor for what I quoted. Why should one be embarrassed when one wrote that the actual evidence is not sufficient?
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  14. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    No.. the blogger decided he was smarter than the Pentagon at that time....The Pentagon, Canada and other always had evidence that Iran shot down it's own plane. It takes time to be properly assess the obvious.
    Other than N.Korea, no other nation would have so many satellites pointed at the military infrastructure, air ports etc than Iran.

    It is surprising how you guys underestimate the intelligence of your perceived oppressor.
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2020
  15. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    Sorry, we don't underestimate the intelligence, we don't believe they are honest. They have lied many times, so they are unreliable as sources. So, we count only what they present as proofs. That means, simple claims do not count.
  16. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    I can relate to all that, but excessive paranoia based distrust ultimately destroys any ordered thinking and the formation of opinion.
    You have quoted from a web site that lacks credibility yet you trust it instead... why?
    All people have the potential to lie, not just those in positions of power but also those that seek power, the dis empowered are just as capable of lying.
    Why trust Putin any more than you trust Hilary?
    Why trust Iran over Canada?

    So why trust any one other than your own, self derived conclusions...?
  17. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    Why you claim it lacks credibility? It has actually informed me about what was known at the given moment. It was not lying. It has used adequate language and given links to its sources. This makes it orders of magnitudes better than the average Western media as well Western politicians.
    I have not trusted Iran, I have said I will wait the results of the investigations. Such investigations are not controlled by one country alone.

    I trust Putin more than other politicians because I have seen enough interviews with him, and have never identified a lie. Even in critical questions, where the Western propaganda has claimed he has lied, I have seen the original, in Russian, and therefore know that he has not lied.

    For example, remember the claim that Putin has lied about the use of speznas forces in Crimea? I have seen the original interview, and immediately, before the West started to claim that he has lied about this. And my summary was a quite different one - after this interview it was obvious from the answer Putin has given that those guys who have protected the parliament of Crimea were, indeed, Russian speznas.
    Of course, you have to base your conclusions on your own mind. If you have none, the most reasonable choice is that of small children - they simply trust their parents. The adults which remain infantile in their mental development trust the propaganda of their own state resp. religion resp. ideology which they have taken from their parents. Adults take into account arguments even if they come from other sources than those supported by the own side. And if these arguments become strong enough, they are ready to switch sides. But this depends on their own ability to evaluate arguments. Without such an ability, nothing remains but to choose one trusted source and rely on it. Such is life.
  18. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Lots of people in the US care about that, and have for many years now.
    Silly boy. That has happened frequently - Beirut in '83 (more than one), the first attempt at bombing the WTC towers, even 9/11, a very successful attack on US soil, earned its country of origin (Saudi Arabia) no retaliation.
  19. iceaura Valued Senior Member

    Your next step would be to revisit what you were told about Trump years ago - by Americans, long familiar with him and his type - back when you were at your most gullible about Clinton et al, and parroting every scrap of idiocy the Republican media feed could put out on the subject of Trump.

    You will find - among the information presented to you gratis - not only Trump's physical cowardice and personal lack of honor and integrity, but the place such character traits occupy in the parade of Republican politicians and media figures of national prominence. They were and are almost all - especially those allowed a national position of command or power - what the left libertarians in the US labeled "chickenhawks": rhetorically violent but physically timid male children or otherwise beneficiaries of amoral predatory wealth.

    The significance of this is as you have been informed: their cowardice is in their view an earned privilege of successful complicity in realpolitik, a perk of elite status - it does not interfere with their indulgence in their love of bullying the vulnerable, the physical exertions and risks of which they delegate as they delegate all onerous chores and maintenance tasks; it abets rather than dampens their enjoyment of war and the sadistic abuse of other people war makes possible.

    You are badly mistaken, in other words, if you think for five seconds that Trump's "running away" from some confrontation is an indication that he will avoid sending the US military (or even more likely some paramilitary or clandestine black ops outfits) to torture and kill people, to blow things up and bully whomever they can. He has the keys to the US military, he's in the pulpit or cockpit - and it's a bully pulpit, in the illiterate and ignorant and ahistorical sense that is all Trump can imagine for a meaning - he thinks that all he has to do is figure out which levers to pull, which weak links to isolate and use.

    Of course he will "fail", in some sense, personally (even the long-lived fail at governance; the cuadillos, the perverts drawn to the accoutrements of power they think they see in fascism, set off on the wrong foot) - but what he turns loose on the world, unless prevented, will have its own agenda. Trump can manipulate, channel, ride the Republican crowds and voters like a wave, but he's not in control. He didn't make this Party, and he can't unmake it.
  20. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    here is the basic headline and text..
    Pentagon Accuses Iran Of Shooting Down A Ukrainian Plane But Its Evidence Is Flimsy
    The Pentagon is accusing Iran's air defense of shooting down the Ukraninan plane that crashed yesterday near Tehran. The Pentagon says that it was an accidental incident. But the evidence on which the claim is based is flimsy.

    then the author proceeds to quote his own evidence that counters the Pentagons evidence which he has no idea of.
    What Pentagon evidence is flimsy?
    Do you expect them to show you satellite images and other critical data to justify their insight globally?

    So I ask again,

    What evidence did the Pentagon base it's claim upon?

    Of course they/you do not know but the web page headline states that they do.... see... credibility zero.
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  21. Schmelzer Valued Senior Member

    Which of these attacks have been officially done by which government?
    As usual if you speculate about what I think you are completely off.

    BTW, I have also made some time ago (after the end of the NK crisis) an observation about the pattern I see in Trump's behavior. To escalate up to a point where it is too much even for the globalists, and then to go in the other direction. Here I thought some moment he has gone too far - that Iran would (and would have to) retaliate so hard that Trump could not avoid to strike back - but not, the repeated the same scheme again. And, again, the main loser are the globalists. Because the certainty of a US retaliation if some state attacks their bases was an important part of US soft power. They could leave even important bases, obviously, without air defenses.
    The pictures of the missile parts are certainly flimsy. The were made in a way that it is certainly impossible to geolocalize them, and similar pics are lying around in masses in the net.
    Their choice. If they show them, this may be evidence which is not flimsy. If they don't show them, it is simply a claim, and not even flimsy evidence. It is simply a claim by an institution which has lied far too often.
    I have no spies in the Pentagon, so I cannot know. Once they have not presented any evidence, there is no evidence accessible to me.
    Quite strange interpretation. Of course, MoA will evaluate only what is presented as evidence, and does not count claims of type "we have some secret evidence" as evidence for whatever. For me, those who believe such "we have some secret evidence" claims made by US secret service have zero credibility.
  22. Quantum Quack Life's a tease... Valued Senior Member

    So we all have to wait for you to present the Pentagon evidence that the blogger thought was flimsy?

    The questions that are most important to me are :
    What are WE learning from this obvious mistake?
    How can WE manage your obvious enthusiasm for harming USA power with out demonstrating paranoid preoccupation?
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2020
  23. CptBork Valued Senior Member

    What do your bosses in the Kremlin tell you?

Share This Page