US and Isreal - Why?

[Read-Only]

That is exactly what a troll would say.



You can go ahead and do your own homework - and state your position in some positive sense - if you want me to care about your assertions. Continued empty condescension will be written off as a pathetic attempt at trolling. As it stands, I am comfortable with my position as stated.

So, again: is it your contention that the governments of Iraq, Libya and Egypt do not have democratically elected civilian governments? If so, what is the basis for that assertion?

Are you going to actually contribute something substantive here, or just take hollow pot-shots at me?

You know full-well how it works - YOU made the original claim here so it's up to YOU to prove YOUR assertions, not me.

But it's moot now since Chipz shot you down in flames! Pay particular attention to his final statement PLUS the fact that *rigged* elections hardly are a mark of a true democratic government.

 

[Read-Only]

bullshit this is zionist AIPAC propaganda. this tired whiny bullshit is plain bigotry. oh the noble persacuted jews and the evil savage muslims gimmie a fucking break. Israel isn't loyal its the most treachoous of allies. Israel has killed more americans than any other country in the region except ones we have been involved in wars there. ITs killed the second most americans agents of national security of all. the us intelligence community rates Israel as the third highest counter intelligence threat to the country. Your just defending Israel because your jewish not because you have any facts on your side. You want to know why we support Israel jewish money and jewish votes. the day arabs become a more important voting bloc the tit comes out of Israel mouth and it has to pay for it crimes. You can thin whatever the fuck you want but an american president the one who first supported ISrael and its crimes said as much.

My, my! Just look at the shade-tree hick lawyer here! He's doing nothing but parroting what he's read on anti-Jewish websites. What a waste!!!! But then again, he's just as good at spreading and repeating nonsense as a presidential debate.

 

[GeoffP]

bullshit this is zionist AIPAC propaganda. this tired whiny bullshit is plain bigotry. oh the noble persacuted jews and the evil savage muslims gimmie a fucking break. Israel isn't loyal its the most treachoous of allies. Israel has killed more americans than any other country in the region except ones we have been involved in wars there. ITs killed the second most americans agents of national security of all. the us intelligence community rates Israel as the third highest counter intelligence threat to the country. Your just defending Israel because your jewish not because you have any facts on your side. You want to know why we support Israel jewish money and jewish votes. the day arabs become a more important voting bloc the tit comes out of Israel mouth and it has to pay for it crimes. You can thin whatever the fuck you want but an american president the one who first supported ISrael and its crimes said as much.

Actually a good chunk of SG's comment is accurate. Much of the opposition to Israel is religious in nature - this integrates strongly into ME politics - and there's little doubt that an attitude of religious supremacism is widespread and well-ingrained in ME countries. Actually, there's no doubt about it whatsoever. The Israelis may be an intelligence threat, which would be no surprise. As for your shrill claims about Israel killing the most Americans - please, get over USS Liberty. It was a mistake. It was not the result of a concerted or ongoing Israeli policy to kill Americans.

As for the tit coming out of the mouth, what's the score on the new Brotherhood-motivated Egyptian regime? Can we stop transfer payments now?

Shalom.

 

[pjdude1219]

My, my! Just look at the shade-tree hick lawyer here! He's doing nothing but parroting what he's read on anti-Jewish websites. What a waste!!!! But then again, he's just as good at spreading and repeating nonsense as a presidential debate.

you know before you criticze people perhaps you should cover your own ass. given the fact you have made grossly inaccurate staements about the Israelis conquest of palestine not to mention you in the past have shown your self to lazy to check bibliographies you shoun't be going after anyone. and yawn the same tired anyone who criticizes Israel must be anti semitic.

 

[spidergoat]

...Israel isn't loyal its the most treachoous of allies. Israel has killed more americans than any other country in the region except ones we have been involved in wars there. ITs killed the second most americans agents of national security of all. the us intelligence community rates Israel as the third highest counter intelligence threat to the country. ....

Put up or shut up.

 

[pjdude1219]

Actually a good chunk of SG's comment is accurate.

no it isn't.

Much of the opposition to Israel is religious in nature - this integrates strongly into ME politics - and there's little doubt that an attitude of religious supremacism is widespread and well-ingrained in ME countries. Actually, there's no doubt about it whatsoever. The Israelis may be an intelligence threat, which would be no surprise.

no most of the opposition to Israel is ideological in nature. the religion of Israel is irrelevant. it could have been any other religion and acted in the same manner and been viewed the same way. of course it has nothing to do with the naked agression ISrael showed in its conquest of palestine

As for your shrill claims about Israel killing the most Americans - please, get over USS Liberty. It was a mistake.

No it wasn't. I've seen picture of the liberty and the ship it was "mistaken" for and am able to clearly tell the two apart. if I can do it supposedly well trained aviators should as well. not to mention the crassness of an american accepting the official line of a foriegn government who attacked an american naval vessal and not the people attacked. but I digress. while the casualities of the liberty attach were high they were not what I was refering to. hell the liberty accounts for maybe 5% of Israel's american death toll we can link to their actions. I'm refering to Israel's spying and turning information over to the soviets. over a hundred americans dead and over 1000 assets with their familys killed. I'm sorry if it hurts your sensibilities but they have killed americans knowing they were putting them at risk.

It was not the result of a concerted or ongoing Israeli policy to kill Americans.

you do they kill are assets in the middle east right? you might be willing to ignore the patterns of behavior but I'm not and neither is the US intelligence community.

 

[pjdude1219]

Put up or shut up.

um why don't you prove Israel's a loyal ally first. but than again like most things with Israel their always that double standard to protect them.


http://www.theblaze.com/stories/a-c...srael-as-biggest-spy-threat-in-the-near-east/

 

[quadraphonics]

You know full-well how it works - YOU made the original claim here so it's up to YOU to prove YOUR assertions, not me.

You have yet to tell me what parts of my assertions, if any, you materially disagree with. If you want to engage in good faith, and tell me what it is that you disagree with, then you'd have some grounds to demand that I back my response with some substance. But as it is, you are refusing repeated requests to merely inform me of what your position is and how it materially differs from what I've stated. Instead, you are just baiting and insulting. This is trolling.

But it's moot now since Chipz shot you down in flames! Pay particular attention to his final statement PLUS the fact that *rigged* elections hardly are a mark of a true democratic government.

If you are claiming that the recent elections in Iraq, Libya and Egypt were "rigged," then that is an assertion that you are going to have to support. The consensus accounts in the press portray those elections as free and fair. Neither you nor Chipz has provided any evidence of such "rigging" - Chipz doesn't even claim that those elections were rigged, note - so until you do I remain unimpressed.

 

[CptBork]

the us intelligence community rates Israel as the third highest counter intelligence threat to the country.

Got a source?

Your just defending Israel because your jewish not because you have any facts on your side. You want to know why we support Israel jewish money and jewish votes. the day arabs become a more important voting bloc the tit comes out of Israel mouth and it has to pay for it crimes. You can thin whatever the fuck you want but an american president the one who first supported ISrael and its crimes said as much.

Who, Truman? What exactly is it they said, what's the quote?

 

[spidergoat]

You are only proving why our relationship is so close, there are few better at intelligence than the Israelis. Of course that can be problematic if they turn their attention towards us, but hey, that's the way it goes.

 

[CptBork]

I have a pretty hard time believing that America's policies to Israel are dictated by Jewish Illuminati money. If they had that much wealth and control, the Jews would just send their money directly over to Israel instead of spending countless billions buying sports teams and useless shares in Bernie Madoff's stock portfolios, etc. It would make far more sense for Israel in that case, because there wouldn't be anything for disgruntled wild-eyed teenagers with ADHD to suspect, complain about and begrudge for the rest of their lives. US leaders would then be free to dump even more useless billions into buying votes from gas-guzzling Nebraska corn ethanol farmers.

I know $3 billion a year seems like a humongous chunk of change to most of us ordinary everyday unremarkable peasants, but it's peanuts in the grand scheme of things. What shocks me is more how little the US and other western countries spend in international aid on the whole, considering the overall size of their economies. If the US cut aid to Egypt and Israel or spent more aid dollars elsewhere, it really wouldn't change anything on the ground in Israel aside from some people having to make due with buying a less expensive automobile until their economy grows to wipe out the foreign aid losses a few years later. In Egypt on the other hand it would create some chaos for American influence on that country, but that would be a problem for US oil companies far more than Israelis.

 

[GeoffP]

no it isn't.

Actually it was. I guess we can go round and round here.

no most of the opposition to Israel is ideological in nature. the religion of Israel is irrelevant. it could have been any other religion and acted in the same manner and been viewed the same way. of course it has nothing to do with the naked agression ISrael showed in its conquest of palestine

Religion is an ideology, or certainly in this case. When political and religious figures in the ME talk about retaking Jerusalem as a religious duty, it isn't hard to fill in the lines.

As for that conquest, we've been over the multifarious evidence of aggression on the Arab side here before. Perhaps Israel shouldn't have been allowed to keep that territory. Then again, if they lost so much as a single war there, that would be the end of Israel permanently, and possibly of many of the Jews there. There appears to be more outrage directed at that in the ME than at a contemporary - and probably more severe - genocide, the Holocaust against the Armenians. That was naked aggression also, yet raises not a peep.

No it wasn't. I've seen picture of the liberty and the ship it was "mistaken" for and am able to clearly tell the two apart.

Sitting in your living room, sure. I recommend you read the wiki entry on it.

As for American spy assets, I'd be interested to see your information.

you do they kill are assets in the middle east right? you might be willing to ignore the patterns of behavior but I'm not and neither is the US intelligence community.

So the alleged endangerment of US spy assets - which must be Americans necessarily? - means that Israel has in place a concerted or ongoing Israeli policy to kill Americans? Have Americans similarly endangered their assets, in the spy game?

 

[CptBork]

No it wasn't. I've seen picture of the liberty and the ship it was "mistaken" for and am able to clearly tell the two apart. if I can do it supposedly well trained aviators should as well.

Perhaps then you can settle once and for all whether JFK was really assassinated by aliens, or whether it's really Bin Laden in all those Bin Laden videos. The world awaits your novel conclusions with baited breath.

 

[RoccoR]

CptBork, et al,

Everyone is a threat to the US in one way or another. The US is the #2 most paranoid country in the world.

Got a source?

(COMMENT)

As far as espionage goes, it has been long understood that Israel (quite blatantly) conducts various espionage operations in the US on numerous types of target; political, military, economic, industrial and commercial. This has been true (at least) since I was a young Counterintelligence (CI) Agent in the '70s. It is not the only threat, since we have to defend against so many. But, we are an easy target. US CI activities a very segmented and quite disorganized, and so much of the defensive effort is left to the FBI. The Army's CI apparatus is probably the most inefficient and least coherent.

• ‘A COMPLICATED RELATIONSHIP’: U.S. REPORTEDLY SEES ISRAEL AS BIGGEST SPY THREAT IN THE NEAR EAST http://www.theblaze.com/stories/a-c...srael-as-biggest-spy-threat-in-the-near-east/
• Best of friends? CIA considers Israel one of its biggest spy threats http://rt.com/usa/news/cia-mossad-israel-espionage-311/
• CIA Calls Israel Main US Regional Spy Threat http://www.indybay.org/newsitems/2012/07/30/18718602.php

Israel is focused in its espionage efforts. So, the geographic threat is less, the greater the disconnect to its primary region of interest. That is where counties like China become more the threat.

Who, Truman? What exactly is it they said, what's the quote?

(COMMENT)
BLUF: There are fears growing on this very issue.

I'm not sure if any one President can be held blame for this theory. But clearly, there are a number of knowledgeable politico's that have raised there eyebrows concerning the growing demographics of the American Arab Voting Bloc. In the half century since the creation of the State of Israel, the US ethnic population of Arab-Americans has quadrupled.

The population who identified as having Arabic-speaking ancestry in the U.S. Census grew by more than 72% between 2000 and 2010. The number of Americans who claim an Arab ancestry has more than doubled since the Census first measured ethnic origins in 1980 and is among the fastest growing Arab diaspora populations in the world. It is estimated that the nationwide Arab American population, adjusting for under-reporting*, is closer to number reported above.

• Census Estimated Arab American Population: 1,967,219
• AAI-Adjusted Population Total: 3,665,789*

SOURCE: Arab American Institute http://aai.3cdn.net/2b24e6a8711d521148_5ym6iv4b5.pdf

Even though the slice of the population is only about 1%, there are number of institutions that are now studying the future impact of the growth in ethnically Arab communities. There is even a concern that, eventually, the Arab Bloc might begin to exert a change in politics that will effect foreign policy and alter the view towards support to Israel.

References:

• View #1: Vatican tries to create distance from row over Muslim Demographics video http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/oct/16/vatican-distance-muslim-demographics-video
• View 2: Cardinal Causes Uproar With 'Muslim Scare' Video At Vatican http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/...re-vatican_n_1968544.html?utm_hp_ref=religion

While Cardinal Peter Turkson had to recant and apologize for the screening of the video, the entire episode is merely an example of how sensitive the topic has become and how exceptionally afraid the world community is from retaliation by the Arab Community in general.

NASHVILLE, Tenn. (BP)--A recent study showing the global Muslim population growing at more than twice the rate of non-Muslims raises concern for the future of Israel as a Jewish state, an expert on the Middle East and Israel has said.

... ... ...

The Pew study forecast the global Muslim population would increase by about 35 percent in the next 20 years, rising from 1.6 billion in 2010 to 2.2 billion by 2030.

In Israel, the Arab Muslim population also is growing at a rate almost double the annual growth of the Jewish population, and a majority-Arab Israel would destroy the country as a Jewish state and could take an anti-democratic turn, Ben Moscovitch of the Foreign Policy Association told the International Business Times.

Wahid Abd Al-Magid, editor of Al-Ahram's Arab Strategic Report, has predicted that Arabs may become a majority in Israel in 2035, and "will certainly be the majority in 2048," and in a 2007 speech to Israel's parliament, former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert warned of "a demographic battle, drowned in blood and tears," the Times noted Feb. 4.

Source: http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=34659

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[pjdude1219]

You are only proving why our relationship is so close, there are few better at intelligence than the Israelis. Of course that can be problematic if they turn their attention towards us, but hey, that's the way it goes.

um there goes that Israeli excecptionalism again. they aren't that great at intell. didn't that fiasco with the passports show that. china is good we aren't exactly friends with them. their is a relationship but it isn't a close one nor is Israel anything close to loyal.

 

[pjdude1219]

I have a pretty hard time believing that America's policies to Israel are dictated by Jewish Illuminati money. If they had that much wealth and control, the Jews would just send their money directly over to Israel instead of spending countless billions buying sports teams and useless shares in Bernie Madoff's stock portfolios, etc. It would make far more sense for Israel in that case, because there wouldn't be anything for disgruntled wild-eyed teenagers with ADHD to suspect, complain about and begrudge for the rest of their lives. US leaders would then be free to dump even more useless billions into buying votes from gas-guzzling Nebraska corn ethanol farmers.

I know $3 billion a year seems like a humongous chunk of change to most of us ordinary everyday unremarkable peasants, but it's peanuts in the grand scheme of things. What shocks me is more how little the US and other western countries spend in international aid on the whole, considering the overall size of their economies. If the US cut aid to Egypt and Israel or spent more aid dollars elsewhere, it really wouldn't change anything on the ground in Israel aside from some people having to make due with buying a less expensive automobile until their economy grows to wipe out the foreign aid losses a few years later. In Egypt on the other hand it would create some chaos for American influence on that country, but that would be a problem for US oil companies far more than Israelis.

you don't need a lot of money or influence to push policy in absolute terms. you just need more than everyone else concerned with it. and considering jewish voters and money to support ISrael are more than arab votes and money jews win.

 

[Bowser]

you don't need a lot of money or influence to push policy in absolute terms. you just need more than everyone else concerned with it. and considering jewish voters and money to support ISrael are more than arab votes and money jews win.

Yep. It's actually scary to watch congress stand and applause the prime minister of Israel as if he were Jesus Christ or something. It makes me question what it is we get exactly from Israel other than the potential for more war in the Middle East?

 

[pjdude1219]

Yep. It's actually scary to watch congress stand and applause the prime minister of Israel as if he were Jesus Christ or something. It makes me question what it is we get exactly from Israel other than the potential for more war in the Middle East?

wonder the samething my self. it feels like all the benefits in the relationship are for Israel and all the costs are for America.

 

[StrawDog]

Israel is a loyal ally. There was already a thread about this. The US generally feels that Jews were victims of genocide and hatred for centuries and deserve a state from which to defend their culture and faith. Muslims have a culture that considers Islam to be the supreme and final religion of the world, and any land that is forcibly or otherwise converted to Islam must remain that way until the end of time. Israel basically said fuck that and pissed them off.

Now you know better than that. What actually happend is that the Zionists which became Israel, established a homeland by force in occupied Palestine chasing and murdering the locals off the land. Thats what pissed and still pisses them off.

Do you not find it ironic that what you are saying about Islamic "culture", is identical to the Jewish Zionist "the chosen people" worldview?

No?

 

[GeoffP]

I think the larger issue of the relentless persecution of indigenous Jews in Palestine is being overlooked. "Chasing and murdering the locals off the land" was of old date there when Israel was formed. People ask: "why military force"? Nebi Musa is a good answer.